So I've want to buy a $60K electric Kia...

[Pew]

Power goes out a dinner time. Power is out for a week.
I have range of my fuel tank (~400 miles) plus 5 gallons of gas (~125 miles). I can drive locally for days without much concern.

You have a dead EV. Unless you have a generator and gas, you're really SOL. Or a 2nd gas car with a full tank or extra fuel.

If you live in an area where power can go out for a week and an EV is your only car, then you didn't plan far enough ahead or there's bigger issues than driving your car. However, I do not know anybody who constantly goes to the gas station after they come home from work; normally they go when they're low on fuel. An EV however, fast and convenient to plug it in as you walk inside your house.

 

[leadcounsel]

If you live in an area where power can go out for a week and an EV is your only car, then you didn't plan far enough ahead or there's bigger issues than driving your car. However, I do not know anybody who constantly goes to the gas station after they come home from work; normally they go when they're low on fuel. An EV however, fast and convenient to plug it in as you walk inside your house.

Anyones' power can go out for a week. I've had it happen in a snow storm in the midwest.

In addition to snow, there's floods, fires, mudslides, hurricanes, localized terrorism, wind storms, or just faulty old grids that cannot handle overloaded capacity. It's actually not uncommon these days for power loss. Even for a day. If an EV is your only ride, it might be a major hassle. Just one more thing you don't contend with if you have a ICE and a full gas tank.

And it's smart to keep your gas tank at least above 1/2, which is about 200 miles in a typical car.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Let's make another scenario. Say my Model 3 burns up, spontaneously of course. Then what? Or the cat gets in, puts it on Auto Pilot and takes off for Santa Cruz for who knows why? He's a dang cat! What's a poor boy to do?

Regarding insurance, I pay about $2400 a year for all my cars. Well, most anyways... If I just stopped paying for insurance, I could save a bunch! Over 50 years, even more!

 

[Ws6]

That's 4x what I pay insuring a 15 year old Accord. I pay $1 daily for full coverage with high liability. As a lawyer I carry huge liability, I think it's $500k or something like that.

Over 10 years, you'll pay $12,000 more in insurance. Plus your $65-70,000 vehicle (I'm factoring the likely taxes and other expensive purchase hits), will depreciate at least around 1/2 (to be generous, probably more), so let's call that a $35,000 cost. Fuel and maintenance costs are wildly debateable.

But in 10 years, the most my 15 year old Honda does is become 25 years old and depreciates about $10k. A $70k EV costs $12k more (your numbers) to insure in that period, while also losing $35k in value. Total "cost" difference without looking at fuel or maintenance, is $37k more for the EV in 10 years versus a sensible vehicle.

And PS I do not believe ANY of the marketing hype on recharging costs, convenience, battery life, etc. What we do know is that battery tech is always dishonest in marketing and I've never had any battery perform as advertised. They all die prematurely, especially when exposed to the climate like cars are. The "best case" is the grid is up and working, rates remain low, and you're in a convenient safe place to charge it for hours (overnight usually). We know the world rarely is "best case." For instance as I type this 1 million Texans don't have power. Kinda stinks if you have a EV on empty there. Need to find a portable gas genny I suppose to bring it to your house and charge your car for hours.

Now, perhaps you must driving something like this to impress clients, and it might ultimately pay for itself. That $40k might be viewed as an "investment," of sorts to solicit client trust (I've never understood this but it's a fact of life). I have long ago stopped working myself to death to impress others. I just don't care what others' think. I would simply do something different with that $50k over a decade than a liability/depreciating asset.

Well, I've been driving an EV for the last 4 months. I've not had any of the issues you allude to. I have lived in the same place for 6 years, now, and have not had any loss of power for more than 48 hours (one occasion), or rate increases.

I'd say you numbers for price/cost/valuation are about spot on, at least as best I can calculate. The thing you left out if maintenance cost, which for an EV are less. My CX5 was by far the cheapest vehicle I've owned to PM. It was just oil changes and tire rotations every 5k miles. That cost me $80. Over 150k miles, that is $2400 in PM. From what I'm reading, the EV6 is going to cost me about the same for routing PM, over 150k miles.

Recharging costs have been spot-on what I was told they would be. It really is as simple as kwh used x kwh cost = charging cost.

I do not care what my customers think of me, nor do they even know what I drive. I buy a vehicle solely for myself. The EV6 is one of the safest cars on the road (important when you drive 25-30k miles a year), and I enjoy fast cars that perform. I buy a vehicle for MY mental health. Noone else's. When I go get in the car after a bad day at work, I want to at least have something to smile about. Not be walking out to this 20 year old gutless POS and shake my head and think "really? For WHAT!?" and angrily drive away wishing I had something to smile about. Dollars in a bank account do not generate smiles for me. They're abstract fiat currency to me and mean nothing.

Now batteries...when we look at Kia's SK batteries and their depreciation of charge, etc. we have a pretty good view, going back to 2016 or so in their Ioniq 28. There is a YouTuber, Bjorn, who does very good battery degradation tests, etc. He took an Ioniq 28, and tested it. The car had 92K Kilometers on it. The thing about the Ioniq 28, is that the pack is air-cooled, and obviously has a lot less engineering behind it than the EV6 GT's pack, which is liquid cooled. The car showed to have 8% degradation. He also tested another Ioniq 28 with about 50K km on it, which had 5% degradation, which tracks very well with his prior test above. This gives me confidence not only in EV batteries of the pouch variety, but also Kia's implementation of them. Multiple users on the EV6 form have 20-50K miles on theirs, with zero apparent degradation, although their tests are not as impressive as Bjorn's for validity, it DOES provide "real world" experience/evidence.

I myself did a long range battery viability test spanning from 2006 to present using 18650 cells. I abused them in the worst ways possible (I ran them so hot on a daily basis for years that they melted the battery pack housing, and I also fully discharged them and let them set for years that way.) There is a LOT of abuse you can heap onto a cell in nearly 2 decades. Every one of those 8 cells will take and hold a charge just as well as a new Molicel P28a right now, and they are currently hanging out after being left fully charged for about 3 years, now, with the last known voltage check about 1/2 year ago, being 4.13v (for reference, this is close to 95% charge retention).

Battery viability was a huge thing for me, and I wanted to look into, and have obviously always considered, it to be "a thing".

All this to say that I have seen documented, as well as personally documented, that rechargeable batteries in pouch and cylindrical form are a very viable long-term product. That is also to say, I'm buying a 150k mile warranty which will cover the battery 100%, in the event that it were to not hold at least 70% capacity by then, because hey, sometimes flaws and faults happen.
https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management-solutions/ev-battery-degradation-tool/

 

[Ws6]

Anyones' power can go out for a week. I've had it happen in a snow storm in the midwest.

In addition to snow, there's floods, fires, mudslides, hurricanes, localized terrorism, wind storms, or just faulty old grids that cannot handle overloaded capacity. It's actually not uncommon these days for power loss. Even for a day. If an EV is your only ride, it might be a major hassle. Just one more thing you don't contend with if you have a ICE and a full gas tank.

And it's smart to keep your gas tank at least above 1/2, which is about 200 miles in a typical car.

I keep my charge at 80%. That gives me 150mi range presuming I drive it at 75mph, per C&D. Which as you know, average speeds tend to be in the 20-30's, if you look at total trip averages for daily commutes.

 

[Ws6]

How is it relevant what you or anyone pays to insure any 15 year old car?
Its not hidden knowledge its going to be cheaper than any new 60K car.

Unless these texans fuel stations have generators the ICE cars are just as dead.

In this case the guy that last fueled or charged last wins - since the EV typically charges at home every night they usually win this.

A friend of mine had a Tesla in Dallas area back when whatever Hurricane it was hit and caused flooding and power loss. He was literally the only thing moving, and was giving his ICE owning neighbors rides. So real world scenario, people I actually know, the Tesla owner was the one-eyed king in the land of the blind.

 

[Ws6]

Not if they had the foresight to store 5 gallons of gas in the garage. A whopping $30 plan-ahead that most people do. Five gallons of gas takes 1 minute to put in a car, and the average car can get you 100-150 miles on that amount of fuel.

You may have missed it but that was part of the debate, and my point, which was contested by the OP who claims it's the same price or not a large difference. I think most people would say $12k over a decade is not insignificant. Maybe that doesn't apply to the OP, but it's a valid economic point. We are all bound to some degree by economics, are we not?

Consider I'm saving $5k in fuel over a YEAR. Also, my electricity rates have been stable over the last 6 years. Wavering not a single cent. Can you say the same for gas prices over the last 6 years? Also, not to get political, but I'd rather tie my fuel cost to my own country instead of another country, and since my local power plant produces power predominantly from coal, that is indeed the case with an EV for me. I also have a 12.95kw Solar array, which incidentally is on US soil...

 

[Torrid]

Consider I'm saving $5k in fuel over a YEAR. Also, my electricity rates have been stable over the last 6 years. Wavering not a single cent. Can you say the same for gas prices over the last 6 years? Also, not to get political, but I'd rather tie my fuel cost to my own country instead of another country, and since my local power plant produces power predominantly from coal, that is indeed the case with an EV for me. I also have a 12.95kw Solar array, which incidentally is on US soil...

It's hard to get people to understand this. My power bill has went up a bit over the last couple of years but it still is so much cheaper to operate than my gas car. All I need is another electric car.

I'm still a little miffed by the what if the power goes out scenario. Is it just my place? Did I forget to pay the power bill then? That's definitely on me. Sure something could happen knocking out the line directly to the house, but if it's the whole town the guy in the electric car is probably in better shape. If there's no electricity anywhere then the gas stations pumps won't have power and the person charging at home likely will be maintaining a battery percentage of around 80% or higher. I run my GTI until I need fuel which means at least 80%-90% of the time my Tesla has more actual range than my GTI if I can't fuel it.

 

[edyvw]

It's hard to get people to understand this. My power bill has went up a bit over the last couple of years but it still is so much cheaper to operate than my gas car. All I need is another electric car.

I'm still a little miffed by the what if the power goes out scenario. Is it just my place? Did I forget to pay the power bill then? That's definitely on me. Sure something could happen knocking out the line directly to the house, but if it's the whole town the guy in the electric car is probably in better shape. If there's no electricity anywhere then the gas stations pumps won't have power and the person charging at home likely will be maintaining a battery percentage of around 80% or higher. I run my GTI until I need fuel which means at least 80%-90% of the time my Tesla has more actual range than my GTI if I can't fuel it.

Many states require gas stations to have independent power source.

 

[Ws6]

Many states require gas stations to have independent power source.

Well, not Texas in the late 2000's, ask me how I know, rofl! Only time I ran out of fuel. Gas station in the middle of nowhere, and it was out of power. I didn't have the fuel to make it elsewhere.

 

[AZjeff]

@Ws6, the CX-5 GTR was the BEST CAR EVER until it wasn't, then the better than Best Car Ever RAV4 hybrid let you down. Then a couple more tries. Hope you find your Holy Grail car and that you're having fun trying. Not sure why you try to justify how you spend your money to anyone, especially EV haters. Wait for the VW ID.Buzz!

 

[Skippy722]

@Ws6, the CX-5 GTR was the BEST CAR EVER until it wasn't, then the better than Best Car Ever RAV4 hybrid let you down. Then a couple more tries. Hope you find your Holy Grail car and that you're having fun trying. Not sure why you try to justify how you spend your money to anyone, especially EV haters. Wait for the VW ID.Buzz!

I can’t even fault him…. Took me 7 years and 4(I think?) cars to find a vehicle I love lol.

I don’t claim the van, that is the family car I refuse to drive unless I absolutely have too.

 

[Ws6]

@Ws6, the CX-5 GTR was the BEST CAR EVER until it wasn't, then the better than Best Car Ever RAV4 hybrid let you down. Then a couple more tries. Hope you find your Holy Grail car and that you're having fun trying. Not sure why you try to justify how you spend your money to anyone, especially EV haters. Wait for the

VW ID.Buzz!

cx5 gtr (now "turbo" trim) still is, at its price point.
RAV4 Prime AWD system was indeed a let down.
RDX was amazing. Zero complaints except fuel cost, but the vehicle got EPA rated numbers, so no complaint on it, specifically.
I can afford it so I do? No need to justify to anyone unless they are offering to pay a bill for me?

 

[NismoNVT]

If you have not purchased the Kia, I think today a lot of the higher priced EVs just got the green light on the tax credit.

 

[OVERKILL]

That's 4x what I pay insuring a 15 year old Accord. I pay $1 daily for full coverage with high liability. As a lawyer I carry huge liability, I think it's $500k or something like that.

Wow, I think that's the first time I've heard $500K liability called huge, I think $1 million is mandatory minimum up here, I carry $2 million, or maybe 3 now, would have to check.

Anyway, having insured many vehicles myself I don't think @Ws6 is out to lunch here. I'll note that it depends on the type of vehicle and the vehicle's reputation. Our Expedition was never cheap to insure, even when it was 15 years old, this was because of the risk of damage it posed for other parties in a collision. My 475HP, and new, Jeep, is actually cheaper. I think the Expedition was twice as expensive to insure as my BMW M5 if I remember correctly. My Audi e-tron was actually cheaper to insure than the Jeep by a little bit (~$200/year), despite costing over $100K. So, I think with a lot of this it just depends, as there are other factors than just HP and sticker price.

 

[Ws6]

If you have not purchased the Kia, I think today a lot of the higher priced EVs just got the green light on the tax credit.

Im waiting. Weather delayed delivery to 2/7. Ive kept an eye on other EVs, and on the IRS revisions, but nothing interesting to me really on the horizon exists. Suggestions?

 

[leadcounsel]

Wow, I think that's the first time I've heard $500K liability called huge, I think $1 million is mandatory minimum up here, I carry $2 million, or maybe 3 now, would have to check.

I'd ask you to check. That's a bit out of whack but to each their own. $1 million or more? That seems incredible.

I just looked, and mine is $500k per person, $500k per incident liability, $500k injury, $500k uninsured/underinsured, $500k property damage. And I feel OVER-INSURED. Then again, I am not reckless and I'm a excellent driver. The odds of me being responsible for a major accident, especially one causing a deaths, or massive injuries, are as close to 0 as can be.
Perfect driving record. No accident in decades. Never caused an accident since a anomaly at like 16. I drive responsibly and legally. Probably driven 1/2 million miles in my life, but dialed it down since 2020 to about 5k annually.

BTW there is an argument to be under-insured so as to deter lawsuits, but that's based on ones' own economics. You seem like a man of means, have you considered putting your assets in a trust? If you think you need $3 million for liability insurance, you would be wise to put your assets in a trust untouchable by plaintiffs. Park assets in a trust, drop liability to $1 mil or whatever the minimums are. Not legal advice, just brainstorming on absurd premiums and reductions.

Heck, probably 1/2 the US either has no insurance or state minimums which is like $30k.

 

[OVERKILL]

I'd ask you to check. That's a bit out of whack but to each their own. $1 million or more? That seems incredible.

I'm 100% it's at least 2 million. Looked up what I paid monthly to insure the M5, it was roughly half the Expedition, and I had $2 million coverage back then. I know my broker recommended I bump it to $3 million the last time we chatted, but I can't recall if I said go ahead or not.

I just looked, and mine is $500k per person, $500k per incident liability, $500k injury, $500k uninsured/underinsured, $500k property damage. And I feel OVER-INSURED. Then again, I am not reckless and I'm a excellent driver. The odds of me being responsible for a major accident, especially one causing a deaths, or massive injuries, are as close to 0 as can be.
Perfect driving record. No accident in decades. Never caused an accident since a anomaly at like 16. I drive responsibly and legally. Probably driven 1/2 million miles in my life, but dialed it down since 2020 to about 5k annually.

I also have a perfect driving record, hence I get very good rates. From what I recall, the cost to bump from $1 million to $2 million was like $20 or something, and it was highly encouraged by my broker, so I went ahead with it.

BTW there is an argument to be under-insured so as to deter lawsuits, but that's based on ones' own economics. You seem like a man of means, have you considered putting your assets in a trust? If you think you need $3 million for liability insurance, you would be wise to put your assets in a trust untouchable by plaintiffs. Park assets in a trust, drop liability to $1 mil or whatever the minimums are. Not legal advice, just brainstorming on absurd premiums and reductions.

Heck, probably 1/2 the US either has no insurance or state minimums which is like $30k.

Never thought about it that way. Interesting angle there. I do believe some of this stuff is different between the US and Canada though (I'm in Canada).

BTW, I looked up the minimums, it's $500K in Nova Scotia, $200K in every other province (except Quebec). $1 million must have been the minimum my broker would recommend, sorry for the misinformation there.

 

[leadcounsel]

@OVERKILL , don't mean a thread derail and apparently I cannot PM you. Anyway, briefly, none of my business but $3,000,000 liability (several times more than the quite large minimums) is a huge amount of money for someone who seems from posts here to be a rational sane person and of a perfect driving record.

You don't owe ME any explanation, but that's a bewildering amount of apparently over-insurance. Seems from your statements your risk of being at-fault for a egregious accident are like mine, practically zero. Even then, as I said, with $3 million dollars available, you might find yourself in a situation that actually entices lawsuits. Something to consider, as I mentioned. Park assets in a trust and dial that insurance way down.

Insurance is to cover reasonable injuries and damages. Not entice hungry plaintiffs lawyers to go for the throat in protracted lawsuits trying to get millions of dollars. IOW, you have $300k and that covers some broken bones, 6 months of traction, and a new vehicle if you're at fault. Policy maxed at $300k, and your assets are in a trust behind a barrier. They learn you've got a $3 million policy limit and lawyers line up and they smell blood in the water. Suddenly your insurance is defending mystery neck injuries, Post Traumatic Stress, mystery skin ailments, and a litany of fabricated nonsense that could cost your insurance, and you, a lot of money down the road in protracted litigation. Not a good situation IMO.

 

[OVERKILL]

@OVERKILL , don't mean a thread derail and apparently I cannot PM you. Anyway, briefly, none of my business but $3,000,000 liability (several times more than the quite large minimums) is a huge amount of money for someone who seems from posts here to be a rational sane person and of a perfect driving record.

You don't owe ME any explanation, but that's a bewildering amount of apparently over-insurance. Seems from your statements your risk of being at-fault for a egregious accident are like mine, practically zero. Even then, as I said, with $3 million dollars available, you might find yourself in a situation that actually entices lawsuits. Something to consider, as I mentioned. Park assets in a trust and dial that insurance way down.

Insurance is to cover reasonable injuries and damages. Not entice hungry plaintiffs lawyers to go for the throat in protracted lawsuits trying to get millions of dollars.

Thanks for the advice. I wouldn't have the coverage if it wasn't almost free, I would have just stuck with the $1 million. I didn't see a downside to having the higher level of coverage, so your perspective is quite interesting! I may chat it over with our corporate lawyer next week, see what his thoughts are, and if they mirror yours.

That said, we have "no fault" insurance, so you always deal with your own insurance company. Not sure how that factors into the discussion here but if we are talking vehicle collisions, my understanding is that it's pretty straight-forward, everybody just deals with their own insurance company. Where it would be different would be like hitting a pedestrian or something, but I'm not familiar with the regulation on that or if scope of coverage is divulged?