So I've want to buy a $60K electric Kia...

[leadcounsel]

That LS400 won't even make it out of my driveway. The EV6 GT will. Further, the LS400 will suck fuel like no tomorrow. I went to Autotrader and found a $12k LS400. It was a 1999 with 65K miles. It had a 4.0L V8, and the EPA rates it at 19mpg combined. It requires 91 octane/Premium. The current price of Premium 91 octane where I live is $3.44/gal at Wal-Mart. I drive 2500mi/month. So even IF the LS400 would physically locomote from my house (it won't, as it's RWD), it would cost me $452/mo for the "privilege" of driving it. Stack oil changes and preventative maintenance on top of a 20 year old luxury car, and you're easily looking at an amortized $600/mo operating cost. The EV6 GT? It will cost about $85/mo in electricity, and 8K mi services are about $100 on it. In no way is a used LS400 an appealing choice to me. I cannot stop laughing.

Eh, year 1 a $60,000 Kia will lose $20,000. By year 5, good luck even being able to sell it. Nobody's going to buy a 5 year old Kia EV. I will wager right now it will need a $15,000+ battery at year 10.

Also, you're basing electric costs on CURRENT costs. If you need a AWD, there's plenty of other better options at 1/2 or 1/3rd the price. Or do you race McLarens regularly on your commute? I suppose you should factor daily ticket prices in your overall costs???

Or, here's an idea, how about fix your driveway, or have it plowed? Like $50 to have a dude with a truck run a plow and throw some sand down. How many times per year, a few?

LOL. A $60,000 Kia EV. LOL... Your money. What's that saying... Oh nevermind.

 

[Ws6]

@Ws6 I've followed your posts over the years and you tend to get really psyched about a car, buy it, then find tons of flaws shortly thereafter.

Have you been able to identify any flaws with the EV6?

-Range is limited
-Tire size sucks (Tires are $430/ea). I'd prefer 19s or 20's.
-Kia brand perception may limit resale value, but the model doing so well on the world stage, plus the Stinger's extremely high value retention kind of reassures me on this.


My Acura RDX ASPEC Advance had no flaws of which I care to mention (body panel alignment kindof sucked). I traded it because 272hp was not worth $5.50/gal gas, at the peak. I was paying for BMW M40i, circa 2020, and getting Acura RDX. Not a good value equation for me. (Total monthly footprint).

My CX5 turbo had no issues to speak of. I loved that thing! Just wanted more performance and better AWD, but it didn't have any flaws.

My RAV4 Prime let me down with the crappy AWD system. But I profited, so all good. Enjoyed that $7500 tax credit.

My C40 has just been not my thing. Nor is Volvo. I have now tried it and am moving on. Enjoying my $7500 tax credit though.

EV6 GT...looks good on paper and in the press and on CR so far! Time will tell.

 

[leadcounsel]

I drive 2500mi/month. So even IF the LS400 would physically locomote from my house (it won't, as it's RWD), it would cost me $452/mo for the "privilege" of driving it. Stack oil changes and preventative maintenance on top of a 20 year old luxury car, and you're easily looking at an amortized $600/mo operating cost. The EV6 GT? It will cost about $85/mo in electricity, and 8K mi services are about $100 on it. In no way is a used LS400 an appealing choice to me.

That's some fuzzy math in favor of the brand new $60,000 EV, with insurance costs about 4x, plus higher registration fees, and probably hidden fees as states start taxing EVs the "fuel tax" they've avoided. Tax on a $60,000 car, at 10%, is $6,000 right out of the gate. How many years would you have to "save" money to recoup that hit? 5? And electric rates soaring. With that much driving, you'd almost have to be charging on the road at EV stations. Factor much higher cost, plus time inconveniences, and travel route limits based on EV charging stations!

Year 1, you're around $70,000 on the Kia, or around $11,000 on a $10,000 used car. The Kia just gets worse from there, annually, with huge depreciation hits along with high depreciation, registration and insurance costs that, annually, probably rival the cost of the used car.

Even with gasoline, allegedly costing say an additional $5,000 annually (your fuzzy numbers), you'd still be ahead for at least a decade or more with a used $10k ICE.

But I yield, as I honestly D Not GAF. Go stimulate the Korean economy with a grossly absurd EV to race McClarens. People with their fantasies...

 

[Ws6]

Eh, year 1 a $60,000 Kia will lose $20,000. By year 5, good luck even being able to sell it. Nobody's going to buy a 5 year old Kia EV. I will wager right now it will need a $15,000+ battery at year 10.

Also, you're basing electric costs on CURRENT costs. If you need a AWD, there's plenty of other better options at 1/2 or 1/3rd the price. Or do you race McLarens regularly on your commute? I suppose you should factor daily ticket prices in your overall costs???

Or, here's an idea, how about fix your driveway, or have it plowed? Like $50 to have a dude with a truck run a plow and throw some sand down. How many times per year, a few?

LOL. A $60,000 Kia EV. LOL... Your money. What's that saying... Oh nevermind.

Well, let's see...year old $58K Kia EV is selling for (the top one is a Wind, retailed for mid 50s)...

So your next assertion...my electric costs have been the same for nearly 7 years, and my CoOp just sent a letter saying for 2023 they do not have any rate increases. Further, I have a 12.95kW solar array that stabilizes those increases, SHOULD they occur...what you got to stabilize oil prices?

Next...My drive way is a 27 percent grade (for 100m distance). It is perfectly maintained, nothing wrong with it. You just aren't making it up that in the snow in anything but an AWD vehicle, and a competent one, at that.

So what's up with 5 year Kia EV resale? The MSRP on these was low to mid 30's for fully loaded. They have retained 50% value, 7 years out. So how's Lexus RX350 doing in comparison? A little better, for sure! But not end of the world horrible on Kia's part compared to one of the strongest value maintainers.

 

[Ws6]

That's some fuzzy math in favor of the brand new $60,000 EV, with insurance costs about 4x, plus higher registration fees, and probably hidden fees as states start taxing EVs the "fuel tax" they've avoided. Tax on a $60,000 car, at 10%, is $6,000 right out of the gate. How many years would you have to "save" money to recoup that hit? 5? And electric rates soaring. But I yield, as I honestly D Not GAF. Go stimulate the Korean economy with a grossly absurd EV to race McClarens. People with their fantasies...

Dude what? No. My insurance went up by like 20 bucks. Registration is $100/year more. Tax was previously paid by and large by my past vehicle. My Co-op just sent out a letter saying no rate increases this year, just like the last decade...

You're way out in left field.

 

[leadcounsel]

Well, let's see...year old $58K Kia EV is selling for (the top one is a Wind, retailed for mid 50s)...

Which is, basically after all inputs, the depreciation costs the entire cost for a good used car. In year 1.
LOL. It doesn't take a financial rocket surgeon to understand this very basic economics lesson. But hey, if you want validation to buy a EV that will cost $70,000 in year one, and depreciate 20% in 1 year, go for it brosef.

 

[leadcounsel]

My insurance went up by like 20 bucks.

ZERO chance the insurance differential is $20 between a $10,000 normal car and a $60,000 "supercar" category that races McClarens unless your agent is just misinformed. I've priced muscle cars. Insurance is about 3x that of normal cars. My rates, with excellent driving records, go from about $300 to about $1000+ annually with performance cars.

 

[Ws6]

Which is, basically after all inputs, the depreciation costs the entire cost for a good used car. In year 1.
LOL. It doesn't take a financial rocket surgeon to understand this very basic economics lesson. But hey, if you want validation to buy a EV that will cost $70,000 in year one, and depreciate 20% in 1 year, go for it brosef.

...or you could walk for free I guess? I pay for things I like.

 

[Ws6]

ZERO chance the insurance differential is $20 between a $10,000 normal car and a $60,000 "supercar" category that races McClarens unless your agent is just misinformed. I've priced muscle cars. Insurance is about 3x that of normal cars. My rates, with excellent driving records, go from about $300 to about $1000+ annually with performance cars.

My z06 corvette cost me $30 more than my used Jeep grand cherokee as I recall. My volvo c40 cost me 20 bucks more than my acura rdx. My insurance runs $180-220/mo no matter what Im in basically. I have other things tacked on, its not just vehicle. Comprehensive, 100/300/150 or something. Hospital insurance. Personal property unrelated to the vehicle. Its all the same bill. Hence the high cost.

 

[leadcounsel]

My z06 corvette cost me $30 more than my used Jeep grand cherokee as I recall. My volvo c40 cost me 20 bucks more than my acura rdx. My insurance runs $180-220/mo no matter what Im in basically. I have other things tacked on, its not just vehicle. Comprehensive, 100/300/150 or something. Hospital insurance. Personal property unrelated to the vehicle. Its all the same bill. Hence the high cost.

Do some critical analysis. From an insurance standpoint, it would make no sense to insure two items at essentially the same rate when one is 6x more expensive, and has significantly more "power" for racing and such. The more powerful more expensive item is far more prone to destruction, loss, injury, deaths, higher repairs, and theft. I don't think your numbers are, to be nice, fully informed. I'm old enough to have insured many houses and vehicles and insurance in my experience doesn't give two radically different items similar rates.

TLDR: You buy a $60,000 vehicle that can race with a McClaren (over 700hp, 700 pounds torque), you're going to pay sportscar rates. I'm an mature adult professional with a perfect driving record, and I would take an educated guess my rates would be at least $1,000 annually for it. E.G. in 10 years, simple insurance would be $10,000. Or the cost of an entire used car.

You buy a normal $10,000 used car, you'll pay rates commensurate with a normal old car. They will be nowhere close to similar rates unless you have some really bizarre insurance agent relationship, in which case I'd question their actual ability to insure your property b/c ineptitude.

But hey, your money. I just laughed at a friend for being coerced by his wife to buy a $6,000 couch.

But again, why am I tortured and drug into this b/c I honestly D Not GAF.

 

[Ws6]

Lack of speed gating/ HVAC compromise during DC fast charging.
Proven high sustained travel speed
A superior charging network
A history of continuous and steady software improvements
Proven and stable battery degradation

1) It's a limitation I'm aware of and accept.
2) The EV6 does fine, just 40mi less.
Also this:

3) When Tesla opens up their network to CCS, then technically Tesla will be the SMALLEST.
4) Tesla IS cool about that.
5) So far they're doing really well here, but Tesla does have a longer track record.

 

[Ws6]

Do some critical analysis. From an insurance standpoint, it would make no sense to insure two items at essentially the same rate when one is 6x more expensive, and has significantly more "power" for racing and such. The more powerful more expensive item is far more prone to destruction, loss, injury, deaths, higher repairs, and theft. I don't think your numbers are, to be nice, fully informed. I'm old enough to have insured many houses and vehicles and insurance in my experience doesn't give two radically different items similar rates.

TLDR: You buy a $60,000 vehicle that can race with a McClaren (over 700hp, 700 pounds torque), you're going to pay sportscar rates. I'm an mature adult professional with a perfect driving record, and I would take an educated guess my rates would be at least $1,000 annually for it. E.G. in 10 years, simple insurance would be $10,000. Or the cost of an entire used car.

You buy a normal $10,000 used car, you'll pay rates commensurate with a normal old car. They will be nowhere close to similar rates unless you have some really bizarre insurance agent relationship, in which case I'd question their actual ability to insure your property b/c ineptitude.

But hey, your money. I just laughed at a friend for being coerced by his wife to buy a $6,000 couch.

But again, why am I tortured and drug into this b/c I honestly D Not GAF.

1) Hey, I just pay the bill. It is what it is. I admit I don't understand it, but that is what it is. State Farm, in case you're wondering.
2) My Z06 had 505hp. The Jeep had 357. It was a Jeep. Few dozen dollars difference.
3) I had a 2002 Infiniti G20 in 2012. It cost me about $140 as I recall per month. I always carry comp, even when a car is paid off.
4) So what do you do with YOUR money? Just look at it?

 

[UncleDave]

1) It's a limitation I'm aware of and accept.
2) The EV6 does fine, just 40mi less.
Also this:

3) When Tesla opens up their network to CCS, then technically Tesla will be the SMALLEST.
4) Tesla IS cool about that.
5) So far they're doing really well here, but Tesla does have a longer track record.

#2 I was referring to a 1K trip vs range on one tank, but the kia performs pretty well.
Is that chart showing claimed and cold range? If so which battery formulas have cobalt ?

#3 A scattered network of low powered chargers at dealers or in town that all require special memberships are useless to me on a road trip.
Tesla network still the only one with remote connection to your car, it has the most ideal locations and more covered stalls then any other network.

I like the EV6 but Im not sold on pouch batteries, especially with the move away from them.

 

[Ws6]

So, I called my insurance agent today.
My coverage is:

250/500/100
0 ded. comprehensive
0 ded glass replacement
loss of income, death, loss of eyesight, all that jazz.

In my Acura (2022 RDX ASPEC ADV, $55k MSRP, 272hp), it was $96mo
In my Volvo C40 (2023, P8 Ultimate, MSRP $62k, 402hp) it is $123/mo
In the EV6 GT it will be $126-130/mo

So yeah, like I was saying, it doesn't really matter what I drive, it's all about the same more or less. $400/year difference or less, or about the price of the fuel I save over the RDX in one month, lol!

The $240 or whatever I was saying in previous messages covers a whole lot of other policies, just billet out on the same statement, in case you're wondering about the disparity.


So why is my insurance so beast? Because you can sue the everyloving **** out of people and garnish 20% of their wages above a certain income bracket, and it varies by location and situation, and I want none of that in my life. I've maxxed people's policies before when they carried state minimums...if you carry minimums...maybe look into it.

 

[leadcounsel]

In the EV6 GT it will be $126-130/mo

That's 4x what I pay insuring a 15 year old Accord. I pay $1 daily for full coverage with high liability. As a lawyer I carry huge liability, I think it's $500k or something like that.

Over 10 years, you'll pay $12,000 more in insurance. Plus your $65-70,000 vehicle (I'm factoring the likely taxes and other expensive purchase hits), will depreciate at least around 1/2 (to be generous, probably more), so let's call that a $35,000 cost. Fuel and maintenance costs are wildly debateable.

But in 10 years, the most my 15 year old Honda does is become 25 years old and depreciates about $10k. A $70k EV costs $12k more (your numbers) to insure in that period, while also losing $35k in value. Total "cost" difference without looking at fuel or maintenance, is $37k more for the EV in 10 years versus a sensible vehicle.

And PS I do not believe ANY of the marketing hype on recharging costs, convenience, battery life, etc. What we do know is that battery tech is always dishonest in marketing and I've never had any battery perform as advertised. They all die prematurely, especially when exposed to the climate like cars are. The "best case" is the grid is up and working, rates remain low, and you're in a convenient safe place to charge it for hours (overnight usually). We know the world rarely is "best case." For instance as I type this 1 million Texans don't have power. Kinda stinks if you have a EV on empty there. Need to find a portable gas genny I suppose to bring it to your house and charge your car for hours.

Now, perhaps you must driving something like this to impress clients, and it might ultimately pay for itself. That $40k might be viewed as an "investment," of sorts to solicit client trust (I've never understood this but it's a fact of life). I have long ago stopped working myself to death to impress others. I just don't care what others' think. I would simply do something different with that $50k over a decade than a liability/depreciating asset.

 

[UncleDave]

That's 4x what I pay insuring a 15 year old Accord. I pay $1 daily for full coverage with high liability. As a lawyer I carry huge liability, I think it's $500k or something like that.

Over 10 years, you'll pay $12,000 more in insurance. Plus your $65-70,000 vehicle (I'm factoring the likely taxes and other expensive purchase hits), will depreciate at least around 1/2 (to be generous, probably more), so let's call that a $35,000 cost. Fuel and maintenance costs are wildly debateable.

But in 10 years, the most my 15 year old Honda does is become 25 years old and depreciates about $10k. A $70k EV costs $12k more (your numbers) to insure in that period, while also losing $35k in value. Total "cost" difference without looking at fuel or maintenance, is $37k more for the EV in 10 years versus a sensible vehicle.

And PS I do not believe ANY of the marketing hype on recharging costs, convenience, battery life, etc. What we do know is that battery tech is always dishonest in marketing and I've never had any battery perform as advertised. They all die prematurely, especially when exposed to the climate like cars are. The "best case" is the grid is up and working, rates remain low, and you're in a convenient safe place to charge it for hours (overnight usually). We know the world rarely is "best case." For instance as I type this 1 million Texans don't have power. Kinda stinks if you have a EV on empty there. Need to find a portable gas genny I suppose to bring it to your house and charge your car for hours.

Now, perhaps you must driving something like this to impress clients, and it might ultimately pay for itself. That $40k might be viewed as an "investment," of sorts to solicit client trust (I've never understood this but it's a fact of life). I have long ago stopped working myself to death to impress others. I just don't care what others' think. I would simply do something different with that $50k over a decade than a liability/depreciating asset.

How is it relevant what you or anyone pays to insure any 15 year old car?
Its not hidden knowledge its going to be cheaper than any new 60K car.

Unless these texans fuel stations have generators the ICE cars are just as dead.

In this case the guy that last fueled or charged last wins - since the EV typically charges at home every night they usually win this.

 

[leadcounsel]

Unless these texans fuel stations have generators the ICE cars are just as dead.

Not if they had the foresight to store 5 gallons of gas in the garage. A whopping $30 plan-ahead that most people do. Five gallons of gas takes 1 minute to put in a car, and the average car can get you 100-150 miles on that amount of fuel.

How is it relevant what you or anyone pays to insure any 15 year old car?

You may have missed it but that was part of the debate, and my point, which was contested by the OP who claims it's the same price or not a large difference. I think most people would say $12k over a decade is not insignificant. Maybe that doesn't apply to the OP, but it's a valid economic point. We are all bound to some degree by economics, are we not?

 

[UncleDave]

Not if they had the foresight to store 5 gallons of gas in the garage. A whopping $30 plan-ahead that most people do. Five gallons of gas takes 1 minute to put in a car, and the average car can get you 100-150 miles on that amount of fuel.

You may have missed it but that was part of the debate, and my point, which was contested by the OP who claims it's the same price or not a large difference. I think most people would say $12k over a decade is not insignificant. Maybe that doesn't apply to the OP, but it's a valid economic point. We are all bound to some degree by economics, are we not?

Let's say they have a 5er even if they do - thats still shy of the full tank the EV starts with.

I didnt miss it. It's just not a relevant comparison.

He's buying a new car and will have to pay new car insurance.
It's always cheaper to keep an old car running than to buy an expensive new car - but he's decided to spend the money.

 

[leadcounsel]

Let's say they have a 5er even if they do - thats still shy of the full tank the EV starts with.

Say we're neighbors. You have an EV, I have a gasoline car.
I come home thru town on empty. I fill up. I also keep 5 gallons of gas in the garage.
You come home on empty, probably do not fill up, you'll just plug in the car at home overnight. You plug in your car and go inside for dinner.

Power goes out a dinner time. Power is out for a week.
I have range of my fuel tank (~400 miles) plus 5 gallons of gas (~125 miles). I can drive locally for days without much concern.

You have a dead EV. Unless you have a generator and gas, you're really SOL. Or a 2nd gas car with a full tank or extra fuel.

I think a lot of people are waking up to the reality this EV fantasy isn't so good. See the mustang EV sales crashed in January.

 

[UncleDave]

Say we're neighbors. You have an EV, I have a gasoline car.
I come home thru town on empty. I fill up. I also keep 5 gallons of gas in the garage.
You come home on empty, probably do not fill up, you'll just plug in the car at home overnight. You plug in your car and go inside for dinner.

Power goes out a dinner time. Power is out for a week.
I have range of my fuel tank (~400 miles) plus 5 gallons of gas (~125 miles). I can drive locally for days without much concern.

You have a dead EV. Unless you have a generator and gas, you're really SOL. Or a 2nd gas car with a full tank or extra fuel.

I think a lot of people are waking up to the reality this EV fantasy isn't so good. See the mustang EV sales crashed in January.

Why would I come home empty? I only drive 20 miles a day? 90% of the US population drives less than 40 a day?

I start every day full.

You only fill up once a week - if the power outage happens the day of you are hosed and the bev is 1 day down.