First you have to consider how many people in the same situation with a key never turn the key and just crash.
Regulators slam Toyota over 'no defect' claim
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Originally Posted By: fsskier
"Have you done any reading about this before posting?"
What does that mean??
I was asking whether you had read any articles on the topic, because they answer the points you brought up. No flames, just pointing it out.
"Have you done any reading about this before posting?"
What does that mean??
I was asking whether you had read any articles on the topic, because they answer the points you brought up. No flames, just pointing it out.
Originally Posted By: PT1
Probably does. But who reads the owners manual to look for how to shut off the car in an emergency? Have you ever even thought to look for that subject?
So you DO have the info (so no need for Lexus to send you a letter or give you a free oil change and explain it)
And I DO read every manual cover to cover so I have all the info on operating the vehicle.
Also when I rent a car if there is no manual in the car, I refuse it as I like to have one with me just in case.
I think reading how to shut down a car in a emergency is pretty important.
Probably does. But who reads the owners manual to look for how to shut off the car in an emergency? Have you ever even thought to look for that subject?
So you DO have the info (so no need for Lexus to send you a letter or give you a free oil change and explain it)
And I DO read every manual cover to cover so I have all the info on operating the vehicle.
Also when I rent a car if there is no manual in the car, I refuse it as I like to have one with me just in case.
I think reading how to shut down a car in a emergency is pretty important.
It is very true in an emergency we often panic and do wrong things. I would be the first. I looked at my wife's 2001 mercedes e320, and the mats are not hooked to prevent movement, and I see the gas pedal is hinged at the bottom rather than suspended like my Toyota. It seems this is a worse design than Toyotas, as the mats can easily go on top of the pedal, and they are pretty heavy mats. I asked my wife what the N was for on the shifter, and she said "neutral." I asked what does it do, and she doesn't know the mechanics of it or what it does. She didn't know N disengages the engine from the wheels, and she has driven for 44 years. This to me is the problem, lack of driver training to be able to operate a two ton hunk of steel able to go 100mph, in a safe manner, which includes understanding how to turn it off and stop the drivetrain in an emergency. To jam floormats on top of the accelerator pedal and expect the car will solve it is expecting too much. Driver licensing is pretty much a joke it seems. I am happy I happened onto this topic today, as now I am on a quest to ask other family members, just what does that N do, anyway?
My pedal is bottom-hinged as well.
The problem with stuck pedals in this Toyota recall was that the pedal was getting stuck in the mat. A bottom-hinge eliminates that problem. No mat is heavy enough to press the gas pedal on its own with just an inch or two of material.
Of course, there are plenty of other ways for a gas pedal to stick, but at least your wife can cross one off the list.
The problem with stuck pedals in this Toyota recall was that the pedal was getting stuck in the mat. A bottom-hinge eliminates that problem. No mat is heavy enough to press the gas pedal on its own with just an inch or two of material.
Of course, there are plenty of other ways for a gas pedal to stick, but at least your wife can cross one off the list.
I suspect that many people also do not know that repeated pumping of the brake pedal takes away the vacuum boost - if the throttle is floored.
If you brake hard, and never let up, the brake boost will stay on the entire time.
A safe example: sitting on a steep ramp, with the motor off (pulling a 5,000 lb boat) you can hold the weight "forever" as long as you keep the brakes on.. The calipers keep the discs clamped very tightly with no reduction in clamping power, even after a minute or better. let it roll back a few feet, reapply brakes - not quite as good. Do it 5 times in a row and the vacuum reserve is gone, and the brakes now have greatly reduced boost - but they still work with lots of pressure.
Those who have towed home a dead car (with a rope) usually learned this also, hopefully without having to buy new bumpers!!!
If you brake hard, and never let up, the brake boost will stay on the entire time.
A safe example: sitting on a steep ramp, with the motor off (pulling a 5,000 lb boat) you can hold the weight "forever" as long as you keep the brakes on.. The calipers keep the discs clamped very tightly with no reduction in clamping power, even after a minute or better. let it roll back a few feet, reapply brakes - not quite as good. Do it 5 times in a row and the vacuum reserve is gone, and the brakes now have greatly reduced boost - but they still work with lots of pressure.
Those who have towed home a dead car (with a rope) usually learned this also, hopefully without having to buy new bumpers!!!
not the floor mats
As many have posted ,why didnt he..............??????
I've said it too,it cant be just the mats they have had this run away with no floor mats installed .
Electronic throttle,no neutral at WOT and no brakes if you drag them even for a bit.
The poster found NO brakes at WOT after 2 tries
Algothum issue for sure.
As many have posted ,why didnt he..............??????
I've said it too,it cant be just the mats they have had this run away with no floor mats installed .
Electronic throttle,no neutral at WOT and no brakes if you drag them even for a bit.
The poster found NO brakes at WOT after 2 tries
Algothum issue for sure.
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No matter that fact that the mat wasn't in the correct place, or the car has a push to start button, of even that there was a possible and I say POSSIBLE throttle issue, this driver in question had PLENTY of time to react to the situation in a safe and predictiable manner, heck you'd think this was a AB 380 jet the way the excusers are reacting. I won't give the guy a pass. All he had to do was put the tranny into Neutral and then use the steering and brakes. I don't believe for one second that there is ANY defect with the auto tranny or the gating at ALL.
The driver bares the burden of responsibility here, heck even moreso because he is a trained CHP officer.
There's just no excuse for him crashing that car under the circumstances. Period.
The driver bares the burden of responsibility here, heck even moreso because he is a trained CHP officer.
There's just no excuse for him crashing that car under the circumstances. Period.
Finally some common sense... If the person driving the "Run away" car didn't know enough to step on the brake and shut off the car or put it into neutral or both, then IMO he should loose his license.
Toyota needs to fix the problem, yes, but this guy and any other caught in this situation should have the common sense to kill the car.
Toyota needs to fix the problem, yes, but this guy and any other caught in this situation should have the common sense to kill the car.
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Without shifting to N or turning the engine off, the driver will hardly be able to stop a car traveling at 100mph with a WOT engine as powerful as in the Lexus' with just the brakes alone, boosted or not.
The kinetic energy of a 1.5 tonne vehicle + passengers plus close to 300 horsepower amounts to a LOT of energy for the brakes to dissipate. They will be glowing red hot before the 2nd or 3rd pump, rendering them literally cooked and useless. Even if he managed to slow the car down to 60mph with the brakes, the auto trans will simply downshift a gear or two and send more torque through.
How many have experienced pad fade just riding brakes down a long hill? It doesn't take a lot of heat to fade OEM grade pads...
The kinetic energy of a 1.5 tonne vehicle + passengers plus close to 300 horsepower amounts to a LOT of energy for the brakes to dissipate. They will be glowing red hot before the 2nd or 3rd pump, rendering them literally cooked and useless. Even if he managed to slow the car down to 60mph with the brakes, the auto trans will simply downshift a gear or two and send more torque through.
How many have experienced pad fade just riding brakes down a long hill? It doesn't take a lot of heat to fade OEM grade pads...
Originally Posted By: hone eagle
not the floor mats
As many have posted ,why didnt he..............??????
I've said it too,it cant be just the mats they have had this run away with no floor mats installed .
Electronic throttle,no neutral at WOT and no brakes if you drag them even for a bit.
The poster found NO brakes at WOT after 2 tries
Algothum issue for sure.
i beg to differ ...
the floor mat slipped OVER the accelerator pedal and UNDER the brake pedal
when the driver mashed the brake to the floor, the floor mat prevented full application of the brake, but also forced the accelerator to the floor ... WOT
this is driver error, not a software problem
the driver effectively had the go pedal floored, and the EFI at WOT
depressing the brake was the equivalent of flooring the Lexus, and he glazed the brakes
there is no underlying defect because the power needed a three second push, because manually shifting to Neutral would have solved his problems
and he could have braked and steered to safety with the transmission disengaged from the motor
tragic story indeed, but there are no bogeymen here
the simple explanation is the true an accurate explanation
occam's razor my friend
Toyo doesn't need a new algorithm ... drivers need to understand the function and very definition of Neutral
not the floor mats
As many have posted ,why didnt he..............??????
I've said it too,it cant be just the mats they have had this run away with no floor mats installed .
Electronic throttle,no neutral at WOT and no brakes if you drag them even for a bit.
The poster found NO brakes at WOT after 2 tries
Algothum issue for sure.
i beg to differ ...
the floor mat slipped OVER the accelerator pedal and UNDER the brake pedal
when the driver mashed the brake to the floor, the floor mat prevented full application of the brake, but also forced the accelerator to the floor ... WOT
this is driver error, not a software problem
the driver effectively had the go pedal floored, and the EFI at WOT
depressing the brake was the equivalent of flooring the Lexus, and he glazed the brakes
there is no underlying defect because the power needed a three second push, because manually shifting to Neutral would have solved his problems
and he could have braked and steered to safety with the transmission disengaged from the motor
tragic story indeed, but there are no bogeymen here
the simple explanation is the true an accurate explanation
occam's razor my friend
Toyo doesn't need a new algorithm ... drivers need to understand the function and very definition of Neutral
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: prax
The guy wasn't familiar with the new ignition system. Quiet unfortunate. He should've figured out how to turn the car off before driving away. I mean he's not going to leave the car on once he gets home.
I have a 08 ES350. When the car is in park you just push the button and it shuts off. When it's in D and moving you have to hold the button in for 3 seconds to shut it off. Very confusing and NOBODY from Lexus has ever instructed my wife or me on how to do an emergency shut down. Which is really the problem. I'll bet the guy was pushing the button like crazy but never held it in for 3 seconds. Lexus should send a letter to all owners with instructions on this shutdown procedure with a response card indicating you have read the letter and understand it. Then for all of the response cards that don't come back they should have the dealers contact each individual personally to instruct them. OR have a free oil change and come in so we can instruct you on saftey features. Etc.
did anyone show you how to shift the car into Neutral?
Originally Posted By: prax
The guy wasn't familiar with the new ignition system. Quiet unfortunate. He should've figured out how to turn the car off before driving away. I mean he's not going to leave the car on once he gets home.
I have a 08 ES350. When the car is in park you just push the button and it shuts off. When it's in D and moving you have to hold the button in for 3 seconds to shut it off. Very confusing and NOBODY from Lexus has ever instructed my wife or me on how to do an emergency shut down. Which is really the problem. I'll bet the guy was pushing the button like crazy but never held it in for 3 seconds. Lexus should send a letter to all owners with instructions on this shutdown procedure with a response card indicating you have read the letter and understand it. Then for all of the response cards that don't come back they should have the dealers contact each individual personally to instruct them. OR have a free oil change and come in so we can instruct you on saftey features. Etc.
did anyone show you how to shift the car into Neutral?
Not to mention that as a last resort you use.....what else, the emergency brake!
For crying out I can hardly believe we have so many apologists on this forum, or perhaps they are actually lawyers?!
Bottom line is that the driver needs to take responsibility for his inept handling of the situation and of course the concequences as well.
For crying out I can hardly believe we have so many apologists on this forum, or perhaps they are actually lawyers?!
Bottom line is that the driver needs to take responsibility for his inept handling of the situation and of course the concequences as well.
Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Not to mention that as a last resort you use.....what else, the emergency brake!
I've had a frayed throttle cable stick at WOT before. It was an enlightening experience. Even with only 168HP, and a car with brakes that work great during HPDE, the main brakes were much less effective at slowing the car than I expected. I likely released brake pressure a few times before I realized what was going on. With the vacuum reserve drained, I was left without power assist on the brakes.
I can understand how a car with twice the power could overheat the brakes to the point of fading or glazing before coming to a stop.
Try using the hand "emergency" brake to stop at highway speed. It's almost useless. I'm not certain what kind of emergency it could help with to justify its name.
Not to mention that as a last resort you use.....what else, the emergency brake!
I've had a frayed throttle cable stick at WOT before. It was an enlightening experience. Even with only 168HP, and a car with brakes that work great during HPDE, the main brakes were much less effective at slowing the car than I expected. I likely released brake pressure a few times before I realized what was going on. With the vacuum reserve drained, I was left without power assist on the brakes.
I can understand how a car with twice the power could overheat the brakes to the point of fading or glazing before coming to a stop.
Try using the hand "emergency" brake to stop at highway speed. It's almost useless. I'm not certain what kind of emergency it could help with to justify its name.
Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Not to mention that as a last resort you use.....what else, the emergency brake!
For crying out I can hardly believe we have so many apologists on this forum, or perhaps they are actually lawyers?!
Bottom line is that the driver needs to take responsibility for his inept handling of the situation and of course the concequences as well.
Emergency is a misnomer,its a parking brake and as such cant 'stop' anything
Not to mention that as a last resort you use.....what else, the emergency brake!
For crying out I can hardly believe we have so many apologists on this forum, or perhaps they are actually lawyers?!
Bottom line is that the driver needs to take responsibility for his inept handling of the situation and of course the concequences as well.
Emergency is a misnomer,its a parking brake and as such cant 'stop' anything
I don't think Toyota is totally off the hook here, as they have some history with their previous models and sticking throttles, their accelerator pedal design is somewhat more prone to get stuck with thicker froor mats.
My car has the factory mats, which are hooked to the carpet and I have thick rubber winter mats that are aftermarket on top of the factory ones, and I have never had a problem with plenty WOT runs. In fact the accelerator pedal is no where close to even touching the floor mat.
Saying that you have to use only model specific floor mats and that this was the problem is silly, if Toyota can't design a gas pedal that will work with other floor mats, that all other cars on the road don't have problems with, then they deserve the bashing and the wrist slap from NHTA.
My car has the factory mats, which are hooked to the carpet and I have thick rubber winter mats that are aftermarket on top of the factory ones, and I have never had a problem with plenty WOT runs. In fact the accelerator pedal is no where close to even touching the floor mat.
Saying that you have to use only model specific floor mats and that this was the problem is silly, if Toyota can't design a gas pedal that will work with other floor mats, that all other cars on the road don't have problems with, then they deserve the bashing and the wrist slap from NHTA.
I read the article and one issue: The car had 31 miles on it. The brake pads were not bed in yet so yes they would definitely fade. I have done the brakes on 2 of these and the first 500 miles the pedal feels a bit soft. after bed in it works fine and stiffens up nicely.
BTW, I did the same experiment with my 08 ES350 at 100 mph and it shut down, went into neutral, and the brakes did slow the car to 30mph with WOT.
BTW, I did the same experiment with my 08 ES350 at 100 mph and it shut down, went into neutral, and the brakes did slow the car to 30mph with WOT.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Saying that you have to use only model specific floor mats and that this was the problem is silly,
Not silly. No car manufacturer can guarantee safe useage of any aftermarket part on any vehicle. That would be "silly". So if I put H rated tires on my ES350 and go 130mph blow them out and kill myself should Toyota be liable?
Saying that you have to use only model specific floor mats and that this was the problem is silly,
Not silly. No car manufacturer can guarantee safe useage of any aftermarket part on any vehicle. That would be "silly". So if I put H rated tires on my ES350 and go 130mph blow them out and kill myself should Toyota be liable?
Originally Posted By: hone eagle
not the floor mats
How would you like to be the lucky person who buys the new Lexus the guy experimented with in that post?
not the floor mats
How would you like to be the lucky person who buys the new Lexus the guy experimented with in that post?
Then why is Toyota the only one having problems with the floor mats and blaming them as culprit of the accident?
And the floor mats in this accident were actually from another Lexus model, so clearly Toyota can't even get their own floor mats right and make them compatible among other Toyota brands, so yes it is silly.
But how Toyota can be at fault here? They are the perfect company, if it were a GM car, that crashed and killed this family, I bet there would not be a lot of people blaming the driver or floor mats, but insted they would blame squarly GM for it.
So really there is no point pointing out the obvious, which even the NTHA found as the root cause, because some just can't get past the fact that Toyota is as prone to mistakes as GM or any other car maker.
And the floor mats in this accident were actually from another Lexus model, so clearly Toyota can't even get their own floor mats right and make them compatible among other Toyota brands, so yes it is silly.
But how Toyota can be at fault here? They are the perfect company, if it were a GM car, that crashed and killed this family, I bet there would not be a lot of people blaming the driver or floor mats, but insted they would blame squarly GM for it.
So really there is no point pointing out the obvious, which even the NTHA found as the root cause, because some just can't get past the fact that Toyota is as prone to mistakes as GM or any other car maker.
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