New details in crash that prompted Toyota recall

[MNgopher]

Honestly, between the fact you had to hold the button for three seconds in drive to kill the engine (three seconds is an eternity in a full panic situation by the way) and a poorly laid out shifting mechanism (easy to see how one would think they are in N, but not, especially to someone who doesn't own the car), this is a design that needs to be revisited.

I'm not saying push button starts are bad or that manual shifting on an auto is bad.

An example is commercial aviation. After accidents occur, a thorough investigation occurs and changes to the aircraft are routinely made in response to the problems. The pilots are highly trained, and yet they make mistakes as a result of layouts that also are not fully intuitive as they could be.

Sad situation, but one that clearly has some engineering solutions that can help.

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: brianl703



The shifter design of the Saab is much closer to what other cars use.

The unique design of the Lexus shifter might actually cause a driver to look at the markings, in which case the ambiguous neutral marking would throw them off.


Yes, the design of the Saab is closer to what other cars use when going from P to R to N and back again.

However, going from D to N and back and going from D to manual shift and back is exactly the same on both vehicles and this is what the driver should have done - pushed forward from D to N, or pushed right from manual mode to D then push forward to N. He would have had to have done this in the Saab the same way.

 

[Vizzy]

Originally Posted By: rcy

Right, so since you brought up the comparison, let me ask you this. Imagine you fly every single day of your life. On the 3650th time flying, are you going to read and listen to the safety instructions should the plane crash. Doubtful.



You're streching.... since if you did fly every day of your life you would logically remember the proceedure, unless you have alzheimers.

Quote:


BTW, I'm gonna have to take you on your word, but I find it hard to believe that if you rent a vehicle, you actually flip through the owner's manual. I can't think of any recent rental vehicle I've been in that even had the owner's manual in it.


Yep, I certainly do if I am UNfamiliar with the model I get. Of couse if I have driven that model numerous times I am familiar enough with the car to operate it confidently I don't. Basic logic and rational.
The point is it is the OPERATORS responsibility to understand the basic operation. Period.

 

[PT1]

I have a 2008 ES350 and the car is very high quality. The shifter while it may look intimidating to some in the picture is very easy to use and you can shift the car into neutral from the D position with one finger. I know this because I tried it after reading of this accident. The push button kills the engine in 3 seconds at WOT. I know this because I tried it.

The problem with the pushbutton system is that is it different. I don't really care for it and don't see any real value in having that type of system..but all Toyotas are going to the same system as are many other manufacturers. So be it.

However, I have had my Lexus for almost 2 years and never knew of the emergency kill feature until reading about this accident. As for the floor mats...the factory mats have plenty of space and don't slip off the hooks ever. In fact they are difficult to remove.

So, IMO what killed this guy was the commbination of the wrong floor mats and him driving an unfamilair car with an unfamiliar ignition system. Very sad story...but he could have easily hit neutral. I am really confused as to why he didn't.

 

[ms21043]

Is it possible the transmission did not shift into neutral even though it was selected? Check out this old news report. The woman mentions the cruise control light coming on and shifting her 2007 Lexus to neutral with no effect. Lexus said it was the floor mat, but the not going into neutral when selected is interesting.

http://www.wate.com/global/Story.asp?s=6459687

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: bretfraz
I'd like to see the silly keyless ignition "feature" go away. There is no logical need for it and it's counter-intuitive to most drivers. Everyone knows how to use a key to start & stop an engine.


I agree. They could still have the start button, just have a key also (like a John Deere tractor). Put the key in the switch, turn it to the right one click, then press the button to start. To turn the engine off, just turn the key left one click.

Honda used that setup on the S2000 and the JDM Civic Type R as well. Turn the key on, foot on the clutch, press the red ENGINE START button. Turn key to stop engine.

I say a separate master switch and a start button like on a bus will work for keyless ignition. Just turn the knob on, hit the start switch.

 

[rcy]

You're streching.... since if you did fly every day of your life you would logically remember the proceedure, unless you have alzheimers.

Same as if you drove everyday of your life. Hence, why would he need to read the owner's manual?

Anyway, I'm done with this. You think this whole thing is the driver's fault, I don't. Neither does Toyota apparently - they seem to think it was the rubber mat's fault. I will bet that when the dust settles from the lawsuit, the courts don't think it was his fault either.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Originally Posted By: rcy

Right, so since you brought up the comparison, let me ask you this. Imagine you fly every single day of your life. On the 3650th time flying, are you going to read and listen to the safety instructions should the plane crash. Doubtful.



You're streching.... since if you did fly every day of your life you would logically remember the proceedure, unless you have alzheimers.

Quote:


BTW, I'm gonna have to take you on your word, but I find it hard to believe that if you rent a vehicle, you actually flip through the owner's manual. I can't think of any recent rental vehicle I've been in that even had the owner's manual in it.


Yep, I certainly do if I am UNfamiliar with the model I get. Of couse if I have driven that model numerous times I am familiar enough with the car to operate it confidently I don't. Basic logic and rational.
The point is it is the OPERATORS responsibility to understand the basic operation. Period.




You just don't get it. There were three systems on this car that could've prevented the accident, the brakes, the ignition switch and the transmission. As far as we know, two of the three systems failed, the brakes were cooked from the braking forces and failed to stop the car, the engine failed to shut off, the transmission is unknown, maybe the driver attempted to put the transmission into N or maybe not we don't know, so this is the only driver error that we can pin on the driver, the rest is poor design.

On top of that, the ignition button doesn't have to be pressed for 3 sec. while in park, you press it once and the engine shuts off, but while in D you have to hold it for 3 sec. so right there it is not intuitive and therefore a poor design. Even if the driver read this in the owner's manual, what are the chances that he would remember this information in an emergency since he never got a chance to use it? And we have also the root cause of this accident, the poor design of the gas pedal, that got stuck in the first place.

This accident was not caused by a single factor, most accidents aren't, it was caused by multiple factors that only manifested themselves in this particular scenerio, so blaming the driver in this case totally misses the point.

 

[rcy]

If you want to peruse the starting and driving section of the owner's manual for a ES350 (2009, but you can see other years if you want) here it is..

https://secure.drivers.lexus.com/lexusdrivers/info/my-lexus/resources/download-owners-manual.do?docURI=http://tis.tmsnet.toyota.com/t3Portal/resources/jsp/siviewer/index.jsp?dir=om/OM33815U&href=xhtml/OM33815U_0012.html&locale=en

 

[KrisZ]

I took a look at the manual, a lot of "DO NOTs" for sure, no wonder no one reads these things

One particular section about shifting to P,N and R while in motion is really messed up:

Quote:
Do not under any circumstances shift the shift lever to P, R or N while the vehicle is moving.
Doing so can cause significant damage to the transmission system and may result in a loss of vehicle control.
l Do not shift the shift lever to N while the vehicle is moving.
Doing so may cause the engine brake to not operate properly and lead to an accident.


So Toyota actually says NOT TO shift the transmission to N while the vehicle is in motion (not even in an emergency), well now it is 100% Toyota's poor design and misleading owner's manual.

 

[rcy]

I noticed that as well. Further down somewhere were the instructions on how to shut the vehicle down at speed.

 

[Amkeer]

A lot of you people are making many different assumptions. You assume it was driver error and he should have understand how to operate a vehicle. You assume it was a flaw in the vehicle shifting or shutoff. When you look at the fact it was an experienced driver, with other drivers in the vehicle that are experienced, it is hard to call on driver error as fault.

We believe that perhaps the mat issue is a means to deflect the concern in a different direction. We are concerned that it is an eletronics issue associated with the cruise control components.

We may or may not find this out. We understand corporations use smokescreens, and various forms of defense mechanisms to divert attention away from the real problem. So to simply assert that the focus is on a pedal, mat or driver error is exactly what they want you to focus on.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: ms21043
Is it possible the transmission did not shift into neutral even though it was selected? Check out this old news report. The woman mentions the cruise control light coming on and shifting her 2007 Lexus to neutral with no effect. Lexus said it was the floor mat, but the not going into neutral when selected is interesting.

http://www.wate.com/global/Story.asp?s=6459687





I tried mine...goes right into neutral.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ

So Toyota actually says NOT TO shift the transmission to N while the vehicle is in motion (not even in an emergency), well now it is 100% Toyota's poor design and misleading owner's manual.


I took mine out at freeway speed at WOT and hit neutral the engine revved up but the car slowed off it's acceleration immedately. The guy could have hit neutral or manually downshifted the car which it will bang down into lower gears and engine brake. This has very little to do with the design of the car IMO. But it has a LOT to do with a dealership putting the wrong mats in and then NOT instructing the operator of a loaner how to use the ignition system. Believe me when I tell you..it is VERY confusing when compared to the same Lexus with the key if you have never used it. Plus, I have talked to 3 other Lexus owners and none of us were really properly instructed as to how to use the shut down feature in an emergency and we bought the cars. The all weather Toyota mats are twice or 3 times as thick as the facory carpeted ones and are real bulky and don't flex or bend so I can really see how one of them could have stuck the pedal down especially if they were mats designed for another vehicle and didn't have the cutout for the gas pedal. The car design is fine. The pushbutton is stupid IMO but not dangerous IF you are properly instructed on the complete range of features. But what dealer wants to tell a new car buyer. " BTW, if this car takes off on you out of control...push and hold the button for 3 seconds"

Operator instruction of the push button ignition system is horrible and I have no doubt cause this guys accident. Same thing happens to pilots who crash aircraft they have few hours of operation. The FAA just updated minimum flying hours for certification because of the same issue.

The general public probably doesn't consider it very important to be updated on the newer technology in their vehicles...but as we move forward with technology people need to be schooled on what they are driving. Technicians probably never imagined they could kill people by putting the wrong floor mats in a car...but now they better re-think the casual approach to some of these vehicles.

Anyone who has read a Harley Davidson owners manual will understand what I am talking about. Every other paragraph has a DANGER-WARNING CAN CAUSE INJURY OR DEATH in it.

Toyota needs to upgrade dealer training for sure.

 

[moklock]

It also suprising that the mfr. didn't at least setup the firmware in the vehicle so that it would give some response to the On/Off button being pushed while underway.

For example, a chime sounding and a message on the car's trip computer display of somthing like "Hold Power Button for Emergency Stop."

 

[benjamming]

I guess that dealership is in some high level, intense discussions with folks they would rather never meet.

rcy,

Good on you to post the link to the owner's manaul. Toyota really flubbed up writing that manual. Page 110 & 111 will be a lawyer's field day me thinks. Page 118 tells about the "3 second rule". Of course it violates what they said on page 110-111.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: benjamming
I guess that dealership is in some high level, intense discussions with folks they would rather never meet.



You can bet your...well their bottom dollar on that one. Kind of irks me that when I bought my Harley Davidson (s) which cost 1/3 of a Lexus that THREE people (salesman, Sales Manager, Service Manager) at the dealership explained in detail how the kill switch works and even though the bike has an electronic bank angle sensor (auto shut down if the bike falls over) that I should always use the kill switch to shut down the bike so that using the kill switch becomes second nature and in an accident you will throw the switch instinctively without thinking about it. They all went through the drill with me even after knowing I have been riding several decades and this was the second Harley I had bought there. They even told me that this is a redundant procedure but one that they are very serious about.

Toyota needs to have this type of thorough driver instruction. OR go back to using keys.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: Tosh
Putting it in neutral is better because as Brian pointed out there's often a rev limiter in neutral.


Often? Is there a modern car that doesn't have a rev limiter?

 

[eljefino]

FWIW sometimes a rolling rev limiter in neutral is redline when a parked one is 4k. Especially on stick shift cars.

 

[crinkles]

+1 for a manual gearbox.