New details in crash that prompted Toyota recall

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Bill, did you miss the fact about this being a loaner car?

They tried to turn it off but did not know about the several seconds rule. I asked my coworker with a new Lexus and she did not know it either.

I'm glad I have ignition keys in my cars.


How does she turn the car off when she gets home from work?

 

[eljefino]

Here's the other thread on the subject.

Presumably when the vehicle is in park the engine shuts off instantly when the button is pressed. Stupid stupid interface.

The shifter gate on that car is one of those mazes to impress yuppies. Strikes me as change for change's sake. I'd hate to fight that odd thing on a moonless night when the console light's burnt out. NHTSA back in the 50's mandated PRNDL and one of the big 3 had to retool (and complain about the expense) so their shifter matched the industry standard. Which, IMO, should be clearer than the pictures I've seen.

 

[Win]

All of my Jaguars up through my 1994 Xj12 used an engine driven mechanical or electric hydraulic pump and a hydraulic accumulator to ensure full braking power regardless of engine status.

At some point, Ford cheaped out the brake system and it appears that the brakes on my wife's '04 Xj8 are plain jane vacuum operated - a scheme totally unfit for an expensive luxury car, imo.

The underhood vacuum diagram on her car shows a line going to a brake servo, although I cannot see a drum (nor can I see an hydraulic accumulator), and I haven't bought a service manual yet (service just became my responsibility a few months ago).

Apparently Lexus has also cheaped out when it comes to putting a suitable braking system on an expensive car.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: eljefino


The shifter gate on that car is one of those mazes to impress yuppies. Strikes me as change for change's sake. I'd hate to fight that odd thing on a moonless night when the console light's burnt out. NHTSA back in the 50's mandated PRNDL and one of the big 3 had to retool (and complain about the expense) so their shifter matched the industry standard. Which, IMO, should be clearer than the pictures I've seen.



I agree that is the worst shifter gate I have ever seen on a car.

You have to wonder what they were thinking putting that ricey POS in an expensive luxury car.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: Win

You have to wonder what they were thinking putting that ricey POS in an expensive luxury car.


Same stuff they were thinking when they loaded the dashboard up with chrome and 80s ghetto-blaster silverized plastic.

 

[GMBoy]

I think my new CTS has a best of both worlds system. It is a keyless vehicle - optional feature. All I need is my keyfob in my pocket and the car senses it and allows me to start the car. You don't even have to use the fob to open the doors. There is NO key - BUT you still turn a knob that looks and works like a key. It's permanantly installed in the column. No stupid push button - just turn the knob to start the car and go. Turn it off when you're done...or if the car accelerates away from you.

 

[Tosh]

Originally Posted By: bretfraz
I'd like to see the silly keyless ignition "feature" go away. There is no logical need for it and it's counter-intuitive to most drivers. Everyone knows how to use a key to start & stop an engine.

I don't think a kill switch is the answer. It's yet another thing drivers must learn and is also counter-intuitive. Besides, where would automakers install it where drivers could reach it easily but not hit it accidentally? The steering wheel is obvious but aren't there enough buttons on wheels to begin with?

Switching off the engine is the right thing to do. You still have steering and braking ability, just not assisted. Putting the trans in Neutral will lead to engine damage and an engine racing at high RPM will frighten some drivers already scared by a stuck throttle.

When your car is careening out of control, thinking clearly enough to hold a button for 3 seconds is not going to happen. Time to ditch this dumb thing and go back to what every driver knows.

I agree with you except for two points: If people are generally trained to switch off the engine (key or button), there is a risk they will turn the key too far in a panic and lock the steering. Putting it in neutral is better because as Brian pointed out there's often a rev limiter in neutral.

I also read somewhere recently (connected to this accident) that it's very easy to put the Lexus in question into N.

 

[Tosh]

One irony is that these ignition buttons are supposed to appear sporty like on a race car (Who was first, Porsche or Honda S2000?), and Toyota is the least sporty of ALL the makers, currently having nothing even close to sporty. (Lexus IS-F or Scion TC? GTFOH!)

Other failures are that the world's largest car company doesn't have proper ergonomics and human factors experts to:
a) prevent there being TWO shut-down procedures (in P, just hit the button; but in D, hold the button for THREE seconds, a near eternity in a panic);
b) have the tiniest bit of ECU logic to cut power when it senses brake and throttle pressed together; and
c) do everything to design a pedal that is not easy to trap.

This indicates to me that the company is run by the marketers and accountants (like all other car makers), for whom 'safety' is just a buzz word and a statistic.

 

[Vizzy]

Bottom line YOU are responsible for understanding how to operate your vehicle, and even IF it was a rental car you need to take a few minutes to read the manual.

Again all the driver needed to do to regain control of the vehicle was to put the car in Neutral, it's that simple.

In my opinion the driver is at fault for this accident.

 

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Bottom line YOU are responsible for understanding how to operate your vehicle, and even IF it was a rental car you need to take a few minutes to read the manual.

Again all the driver needed to do to regain control of the vehicle was to put the car in Neutral, it's that simple.

In my opinion the driver is at fault for this accident.


I agree with you but Chevy is now putting out TV adds how the young girl doesn't even know when to change the oil. I still contend most folks never even look at the owners manual let alone read and understand it. Heck most folks are really clueless as to whats happening all about them as they are all wrapped up with Surviver, American Idol or some such.

 

[Vizzy]

Originally Posted By: jcwit. [/quote


. I still contend most folks never even look at the owners manual let alone read and understand it.


I would call the failure to correctly operate a motor vehicle NEGLIGENCE, pure and simple.

Unfortunately concequences still do exist and the concequences of the driver's failure to properly operate the vehicle resulted in death.

 

[CharlieJ]

Here is a picture regarding how easy it would have been to put the car in neutral.

 

[brianl703]

That thing is an ergonomic nightmare.

 

[jcwit]

No thats progress!

 

[Vizzy]

Originally Posted By: brianl703
That thing is an ergonomic nightmare.


It probably is, but that is no excuse for not knowing its operation.

I also think that this is one more case for reversing the never ending and irrational march towards more and more unnecessary complexity in cars today. LESS IS MORE!!!!

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: ArrestMeRedZ

Hopefully every automaker learns from what went wrong here. Electric powered break boosters are sounding like a decent idea right now.


They might be, but in this case they wouldn't have helped. The driver was able to exert enough force to pretty well wear out the brakes.
I agree that a simple kill switch should be mandated on every vehicle with any type of exotic start system. Make it a plastic guard covered red panic button.


===========================================================
Originally Posted By: brianl703
That thing is an ergonomic nightmare.

===========================================================
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Cars with these push-buttons starters need a kill switch just like my Harley has.


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

It's already there -- the same button you start the car with. Read the manual, know your car, respond accordingly.

If you know how to operate it properly, nobody needs to die needlessly. In fact, it's a better system than a key. You can kill it without locking the steering column (thereby losing steering control).

Why is the concept of reading the book before driving the car such a challenge?????????? Amazing.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
In fact, it's a better system than a key. You can kill it without locking the steering column (thereby losing steering control).


I can do that on my Saab 93, which has a key. In fact, it won't let you remove the key (and the steering remains unlocked) if you shut the engine off with the car still moving...and it doesn't talk 3 seconds to kill the engine, it dies the instant you turn the key to OFF.

So no, it's not better than a key.

Quote:
If you know how to operate it properly, nobody needs to die needlessly.


That's arrogance, right there. The design sucks, that's why someone died. In fact, it sucks in multiple ways, from the gas pedal to the convoluted shifter to the push button on/off switch. Had any one of those design elements not sucked, this person and their family would still be alive.

Let's not blame engineering mistakes on the end user.

 

[jcwit]

One more time, because people do not read the manual, why do you think there forums such as this?

Check out the motor oil thred and see how many ask "What oil should I use?".

And again, what about the 2nd purchaser? Nine times out of ten the is no owners manual, but then I see it looks like you buy new cars.

I let those that buy new cars take the hit when they drive off the dealers lot. Also I make no payments for my vehicles, I own them, lock stock & barrel.

 

[brianl703]

If someone who has been driving since age 16 needs to read the manual to know how to shift the car into neutral and turn the engine off, the design sucks. These user interfaces have been standardized among cars for years.

 

[CharlieJ]

Why does everyone think the shifter is sooooooooooo difficult to use and an ergonomic nightmare. My Mazda3 auto has the same shift pattern (aside from the + & -). I shift from Drive to Neutral all the time when at red lights. And yes, it even lets you shift to Neutral while driving as well. I guess many people here would have crashed just like this guy because they are too stupid to push a lever two centimeters forward.