New details in crash that prompted Toyota recall

[brianl703]

It needs to go to the right, then forward, according to the picture posted. One might mistakenly assume that it only needs to go forward.

The only kind of shifter I expect to have that interface on it also happens to come with a clutch pedal.

 

[asiancivicmaniac]

If it was in drive then it just needs to go forward for neutral. If it was in the shifting position then that would be true.

 

[brianl703]

The shifter could be right next to N and it won't be in neutral because it's in the shifting position. For all anyone knows, that's what happened here.

 

[brianl703]

It's a bit hard to see, but this is how Saab did it:

Note the difference:

The markings for PRND are on the right side. When the lever is closest to N, the transmission is in neutral. Not the case for the Lexus design.

The manual shift mode is on the right, along with the markings for that part.

 

[sciphi]

That design does not look friendly. I'll take my Buick's column shifter any day over that. I regularly bump the car into N at lights and while in motion.

And if they had managed to overshoot N for R, the engine would have stopped instantly while interlocks would have sensed the transmission in motion and allowed forward progress to continue. Or that's how it works on my decade-old Buick.

Then again, having been in near-panic situations, it's hard to remember what to do when your life may end the next instant.

 

[brianl703]

The Toyota design, or the Saab design does not look friendly?

I think the Saab design works great because it's what most drivers are used to.

 

[Vizzy]

Originally Posted By: brianl703
[

Quote:
If you know how to operate it properly, nobody needs to die needlessly.


That's arrogance, right there. The design sucks, that's why someone died. In fact, it sucks in multiple ways, from the gas pedal to the convoluted shifter to the push button on/off switch. Had any one of those design elements not sucked, this person and their family would still be alive.

Let's not blame engineering mistakes on the end user.




The bottom line is that you don't NEED to read the owner's manual to know that if you put the car into Neutral you can safely and easily roll to a controlled stop out of danger.

While I agree that there is unneeded complexity in most cars today, if you can pass a drivers exam you should already know how to operate your car. Further more it is the DRIVERS responsibility to understand how his vehicle works. Period.

The operator of the Lexus in this case CLEARLY is guilty of personal negligence. He failed to understand how to operate the vehicle and respond during an emergency.

I don't see ANY problem with mfrs expecting a vehicle operator to READ and understand the owner's manual. If you can't you shouldn't be driving at ALL!!!!

In Germany you must demonstrate a command of your personal vehicle and its operating proceedures, they test you on this! AKA YOU MUST READ THE OWNER'S MANAUL!

 

[brianl703]

No, you don't need to read the owner's manual to know that putting the car in neutral will solve a runaway acceleration problem. Most cars have clearly marked shifter gates which indicate when the car is in neutral.

This one is ambiguous. The stick can be right next to N yet it will not be in neutral.

Bad design. No excuse.

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: brianl703
It's a bit hard to see, but this is how Saab did it:

Note the difference:

The markings for PRND are on the right side. When the lever is closest to N, the transmission is in neutral. Not the case for the Lexus design.

The manual shift mode is on the right, along with the markings for that part.



The markings on the Saab are different, but the motion is the same as on the Lexus. If you're in D, you simply push forward and the tranny is in neutral. If you've slipped it into manual shift mode (intentionally or accidentally) you still have to move the shifter to the right and then push forward to obtain neutral.

So I don't see where the Saab is better, and how many people actually look at the shifter when they are shifting? Especially if the veh is out of control?

Looking at the Lexus gated shifter makes me wonder if the driver accidently slipped the shifter into the manual shift mode, and then kept pushing it forward trying to obtain neutral. Each time he pushed it forward the tranny shifted up one gear.

Note that the same thing could happen with the Saab shifter until the driver actually looked down at the shifter markings, in which case I concede that the Saab is more logical.

I don't even know why they put those stupid manual shift modes on auto trannys in the first place. Does anyone actually use them?

 

[Vizzy]

Originally Posted By: brianl703


Bad design. No excuse.



There is also NO EXCUSE for the driver not READING, COMPREHENDING, and UNDERSTADING how the car operates according to the owner's manual. Because of his failure to due diligence he is the guilty party. If he had the accident wouldn't have happened. It doesn't matter if the design "sucks" according to a number of personal opinions, the driver failed to understand how to operate his car. Period.

Personal Responsibility and accepting the Concequences that go along with it.

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Originally Posted By: brianl703


Bad design. No excuse.



There is also NO EXCUSE for the driver not READING, COMPREHENDING, and UNDERSTADING how the car operates according to the owner's manual. Because of his failure to due diligence he is the guilty party. If he had the accident wouldn't have happened. It doesn't matter if the design "sucks" according to a number of personal opinions, the driver failed to understand how to operate his car. Period.


It was a loaner car. When you rent a car, do you actually sit in the rental lot and read the owner's manual? His car was in for service and was not equipped with push button start. The dealer loaned it to him and probably said, push this button to start, push it to stop.

 

[Vizzy]

Originally Posted By: rcy

It was a loaner car. When you rent a car, do you actually sit in the rental lot and read the owner's manual? His car was in for service and was not equipped with push button start.



YES, I do. I don't read the sections about the stupid stereo system and navi, but I do read the sections about basic operation, which ususally is abbreviated to make it a quick read. It is only a matter of common sense.

Again, when you get in any car it is YOUR responsibility to understand how to operate the vehicle.

I kind of equate this to listening and reading the instructions on how to safely act during a airline crash and how to escape the plane after it has crashed. Do I listen and read? You bet. It only takes a few minutes...a few minutes that could be the difference between life and death. I'm not being lazy in this case.

 

[moklock]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
In fact, it's a better system than a key. You can kill it without locking the steering column (thereby losing steering control).


The only modern keyed-ignition car I could think of that would lock the steering column inadvertently would be some newer manual trans cars that no longer have the key release button, push-and-turn, or shift to reverse interlocks on their ignitions.

The park lock mechanism prevents an auto trans car ignition from being turned to 'LOCK' when out of park. Some used to go even further by also having the same interlocks as their manual trans siblings.

 

[jcwit]

Lets put this into something REALLY simple. Has nothing to do with cars but might prove the point.

Years ago back in the '30's my father plumbed our house with the cold to the left and the hot to the right. This is opposite from the standard way. I grew up with this and now live in the same house, my wife learned to use the faucets and my kids grew up with this set up.

When we have friends here they invariable get it wrong, even tho they have visited many many times. Humans are a creature of habit and grow used to doing things in a certain fashion. And when we visit someone else I invariably use the wrong faucet.

I hope you all can see where I came from with this example, if not just continue with the argument.

 

[tonycarguy]

I can't believe people are using this event to stop technological progress. The people I know with keyless ignition ALL love it -- you leave the key in your purse or pocket and open the door and press the START button and away you go. No need to fumble for your keys on a dark, rainy night.

Just because someone didn't know to put the car into N or turn off a keyless ignition car, doesn't mean you revert back to 1990's technologies. The solution is to ensure people understand how to use the technology, not go back to the old days.

 

[brianl703]

I can see perfectly where you come from with that example. Standards exist for a reason. Does anyone think it's an accident, for example, that all 50 states have similar laws with regard to driving? Or that all 50 states use similar signage and roadway markings?

 

[JohnBrowning]

Well I have seen more then one person usually a woman but a few men too that could have ended a not so good situation by just turning the regular ignition key to off! Unfortunately most people panic and stop thinking when putting the brakes to the floor failed most people like myself who see's himself as a normal guy not some rocket scientist would turn the ignition of and cost to the shoulder!Obviously I must not be normal or driving that FOrd I owned prepared me for all of lifes little problems like routinely stuck accelerator cable for instance!

When I was dating my wife I missed a turn on a dark dirt road because I going about 120MPH........ When I say the "Slow 12MPH Sharp Turn" sign and the swamp on the end of the road. I put tried slowing down with braking but the dirt road was not having any of that!!! I put in "N", turned the igniton to off said "Oh Sh*T followed by hold on!!!" I put my hand across my girl friend to hold here in place and then we where flying through the air into a swamp. We had to climb out the window's and the swamp slowed us from about 95MPH down to 0 in about 10 feet from the bank! A commerical big rig tow trucks winch couldnot free it the big rig was being pulled intot he swamp so we chalked the wheels and still no joy........It was a huge big rig tow vechile we hucked chains to it and where able to slowly pull it out useing the vechiles 500HP diesel and the chains to pull it free from the mud..... I drove that 4Runner to a car wash and then home. It $25 in to get it clean enough so the wheel would not be out of ballance and so you could see the engine. IF I had not shut the engine off and tossed it in nutral either the engine or trans would have been damaged. People need to learn to think while they are driving in America people normaly drive like mindless zombies then when something happens their combo of poor training and incompetence resutls in tragic loss of life!

I have said since I first returned to America at 18 years old that people in this country drove like idiots. It is because for the most part driving is looked upon as a birth right. The training is too easy and the testing is too easy. Penalties are not high enough for really life threating things like tail gating instead stupid revenue generating speed limits are inforced.......Stupid driving at 55 is just as deadly as stupid driving 5MPH or 10MPH over the speed limit. People driving too slow are almost never ticketed and NHTSB has routinely said as has the Insurance Institute that anyone driving 5MPH slower then the flow of traffic is a raod hazard but go with the flow and you risk a ticket because HWY saftey has taken a back seat to tax's,registration fee's,plate fee's,driver license few's and fines!

 

[Vizzy]

I don't mind technology, IF it is logically and rationally employed. Too much of what is offered today is simply added to increase profit margin, nothing else.

To the mfrs: offer this gadgetry but allow me to delete it when I buy a car.

The other problem with so much of this new gadetry is that when it breaks it is really going to cost you to fix it. Not to mention that electronics often times are less reliable and more prone to problems than mechanical ones especially in harsh environments, like those found in and around cars.

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Originally Posted By: rcy

It was a loaner car. When you rent a car, do you actually sit in the rental lot and read the owner's manual? His car was in for service and was not equipped with push button start.



YES, I do. I don't read the sections about the stupid stereo system and navi, but I do read the sections about basic operation, which ususally is abbreviated to make it a quick read. It is only a matter of common sense.

Again, when you get in any car it is YOUR responsibility to understand how to operate the vehicle.

I kind of equate this to listening and reading the instructions on how to safely act during a airline crash and how to escape the plane after it has crashed. Do I listen and read? You bet. It only takes a few minutes...a few minutes that could be the difference between life and death. I'm not being lazy in this case.


Right, so since you brought up the comparison, let me ask you this. Imagine you fly every single day of your life. On the 3650th time flying, are you going to read and listen to the safety instructions should the plane crash. Doubtful.

Now consider the car. The driver has driven every day for 3650 days. He knows how to operate a car. This is the gas, this is the brake, this is the shifter. He takes his car in for service and is given a loaner. Hey, how does this push button work? The dealer says push to start, push to stop. He's just educated himself without reading the owner's manual on a feature he does not have in his own car. Everything else is the same as his car - no need to read the owner's manual, right. No one in that position is going to say, 'What if the car races out of control? How do I shut it off while in D?'

The actual physical accident may have happened because the driver did not think to put the vehicle in neutral, but the circumstances that led to this accident are surely Toyota's fault (and by Toyota, I mean the company and the dealership - wrong mats in car - dealership, not explaining or knowing about the in motion shutdown - Toyota and dealership, poorly designed gas pedal/software/computer/ignition button - Toyota.

BTW, I'm gonna have to take you on your word, but I find it hard to believe that if you rent a vehicle, you actually flip through the owner's manual. I can't think of any recent rental vehicle I've been in that even had the owner's manual in it.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: rcy

Note that the same thing could happen with the Saab shifter until the driver actually looked down at the shifter markings, in which case I concede that the Saab is more logical.


The shifter design of the Saab is much closer to what other cars use.

The unique design of the Lexus shifter might actually cause a driver to look at the markings, in which case the ambiguous neutral marking would throw them off.