Regulators slam Toyota over 'no defect' claim

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Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Then why is Toyota the only one having problems with the floor mats and blaming them as culprit of the accident?

And the floor mats in this accident were actually from another Lexus model, so clearly Toyota can't even get their own floor mats right and make them compatible among other Toyota brands, so yes it is silly.

But how Toyota can be at fault here? They are the perfect company, if it were a GM car, that crashed and killed this family, I bet there would not be a lot of people blaming the driver or floor mats, but insted they would blame squarly GM for it.

So really there is no point pointing out the obvious, which even the NTHA found as the root cause because some just can't get past the fact that Toyota is as prone to mistakes as GM or any other car maker is.


Floor mats, tires,wheels, seats, engine, trans,windows, doors and all other body parts from an LS series will not fit on an ES series. What is silly? Will Cadillac CTS mats fit in a Escallade?
 
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: hone eagle
not the floor mats


How would you like to be the lucky person who buys the new Lexus the guy experimented with in that post?
smirk2.gif



Yeah, he will be looking at new brake pads at about 30k. No better way to cut the life of a set of pads in half than do the WOT panic stop test before bed in. The pads on those cars typically go 55-70k. I replace mine at 60k with a full fluid flush. Keeps the system nice and tight.
 
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Finally some common sense... If the person driving the "Run away" car didn't know enough to step on the brake and shut off the car or put it into neutral or both, then IMO he should loose his license.

You know, you're right. All he lost was his life. That's not nearly enough, is it?


Originally Posted By: StevieC
Toyota needs to fix the problem, yes, but this guy and any other caught in this situation should have the common sense to kill the car.
21.gif


...Yes, and the reason his passenger called 911 was to scream frantically at the operator about how the driver wasn't doing anything to stop his car. Of course.
 
Originally Posted By: PRND3L
According to a Nightline report which aired Wednesday, it's not the floor mats, but the drive-by-wire that's going SNAFU. The report is available online.

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline


I believe it is the ETC as well. That was my first thought. They have had similar problems with drive by wire and fly by wire systems from the beginning of them. Heck on the first Airbus fly by wire demonstration at the Paris Air Show the system FUBARED on landing approach and the pilot overhsot the runway and crashed in the woods. Luckily he survived. Almost funny with all the Airbus Execs standing on a platform smiling until their airliner missed the runway and exploded into a giant flameball. Too bad 3 people were killed.


http://www.airdisaster.com/investigations/af296/af296.shtml
 
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Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: PRND3L
According to a Nightline report which aired Wednesday, it's not the floor mats, but the drive-by-wire that's going SNAFU. The report is available online.

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline


I believe it is the ETC as well. That was my first thought. They have had similar problems with drive by wire and fly by wire systems from the beginning of them. Heck on the first Airbus fly by wire demonstration at the Paris Air Show the system FUBARED on landing approach and the pilot overhsot the runway and crashed in the woods. Luckily he survived. Almost funny with all the Airbus Execs standing on a platform smiling until their airliner missed the runway and exploded into a giant flameball.


It wasn't a landing approach. It was supposed to be a low speed pass at 100 feet.
 
Fact is the driver had multiple options in order to bring his car under control and he failed to use any of them it would seem. Ever the passenger stated that the trained CHP officer was doing nothing to bring the car under control.

Even IF there was a problem with the throttle, it ain't an excuse in this case.

This is a huge problem in the USA today, a culture of NEVER owning up (I know that the driver passed away in this case ) and taking responsibility and accepting the concequences for ones actions or lack thereof.
 
I almost wonder if it would just make sense to update the software in regards to the on/off button. In a panic, I imagine somebody would repeatedly hit the button instead of holding it down. Why doesn't Toyota program it in a way that if it's repeatedly pressed (ie, 3x quickly) it shuts the car down?

Auto companies, especially luxury brands, spend a lot of money trying to make controls as intuitive as possible; it seems odd that it never occurred to anyone that an emergency shutdown should be any different.
 
I don't know about European brands but my guess is that if Mercedes or BMW had a push to start model that they would have had the foresight to program the button just the way you describe, if it detected multiple presses in quick succession the car would shut down.
 
I'm pretty sure BMW's brake pedals have been cutting out their drive-by-wire throttles since the E38 7-series (late 90s and up...)
 
Originally Posted By: kb01
I almost wonder if it would just make sense to update the software in regards to the on/off button. In a panic, I imagine somebody would repeatedly hit the button instead of holding it down. Why doesn't Toyota program it in a way that if it's repeatedly pressed (ie, 3x quickly) it shuts the car down?

Auto companies, especially luxury brands, spend a lot of money trying to make controls as intuitive as possible; it seems odd that it never occurred to anyone that an emergency shutdown should be any different.


If someone did not read the manual and pressed it twice or 4 times they would be in the same situation.

A continuous press until the engine shuts off is the best. Just press it till it dies.

That is if you read the owners manual. The one that says READ THIS BEFORE OPERATION....

It's ok, there will be a sticker (I'd bet bigger than life) that will say;

IN CASE OF EMERGENCY, PRESS ENGINE START FOR 3 SECONDS TO TURN OFF ENGINE.

Then they will also have a loud chime or buzzer to let you know that you are pressing the button....

Bill
 
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: PRND3L
According to a Nightline report which aired Wednesday, it's not the floor mats, but the drive-by-wire that's going SNAFU. The report is available online.

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline


I believe it is the ETC as well. That was my first thought. They have had similar problems with drive by wire and fly by wire systems from the beginning of them. Heck on the first Airbus fly by wire demonstration at the Paris Air Show the system FUBARED on landing approach and the pilot overhsot the runway and crashed in the woods. Luckily he survived. Almost funny with all the Airbus Execs standing on a platform smiling until their airliner missed the runway and exploded into a giant flameball.


It wasn't a landing approach. It was supposed to be a low speed pass at 100 feet.



Yeah...you are correct...ended up being a landing approach
15.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: kb01
I almost wonder if it would just make sense to update the software in regards to the on/off button. In a panic, I imagine somebody would repeatedly hit the button instead of holding it down. Why doesn't Toyota program it in a way that if it's repeatedly pressed (ie, 3x quickly) it shuts the car down?

Auto companies, especially luxury brands, spend a lot of money trying to make controls as intuitive as possible; it seems odd that it never occurred to anyone that an emergency shutdown should be any different.


If someone did not read the manual and pressed it twice or 4 times they would be in the same situation.

A continuous press until the engine shuts off is the best. Just press it till it dies.

That is if you read the owners manual. The one that says READ THIS BEFORE OPERATION....

It's ok, there will be a sticker (I'd bet bigger than life) that will say;

IN CASE OF EMERGENCY, PRESS ENGINE START FOR 3 SECONDS TO TURN OFF ENGINE.

Then they will also have a loud chime or buzzer to let you know that you are pressing the button....

Bill


Maybe a sticker that reads "TO BE REMOVED BY CUSTOMER ONLY" that is huge and orange and cut out over the start button so the dealer can run the car when necessary but informs the buyer of this feature. My Harley had 2 such stickers. "To be removed by customer only".
 
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah


If someone did not read the manual and pressed it twice or 4 times they would be in the same situation.

A continuous press until the engine shuts off is the best. Just press it till it dies.

That is if you read the owners manual. The one that says READ THIS BEFORE OPERATION....

It's ok, there will be a sticker (I'd bet bigger than life) that will say;

IN CASE OF EMERGENCY, PRESS ENGINE START FOR 3 SECONDS TO TURN OFF ENGINE.

Then they will also have a loud chime or buzzer to let you know that you are pressing the button....

Bill


I just think it's reasonable for manufacturers to design their product in a manner that operation would be intuitive during an emergency. Manufacturers spend millions of dollars to make the user interface as seamless and intuitive as possible. In a panic situation, I suspect most people would behave in a predictable manner, which I'm sure is well researched by auto companies.

Obviously, the operator is the one who is ultimately responsible, as his/her life is the one on the line. But if the loss-of-life could be prevented through a minor alteration in floor mat design or vehicle firmware update, why is this a bad thing? Do any of us know truly, how we would react in such a situation? I honestly don't know what was going through the minds of anyone who died in these accidents. I'm just not arrogant enough to assume that these were stupid people who were just too lazy to read the owner's manual.

I served about a decade as a Bradley crewman in a mech infantry unit. We had procedures for virtually everything burned into our brains, as well as whole sections of manuals memorized. I've seen what happens to men when "I am going to die" goes through their brains; all of the sudden, simply popping a hatch can be as challenging as a rubix cube. These are smart, disciplined, well trained men.

In my line of work, the regulations we fall under all go back to a "Reasonable Person" clause. Essentially, given factors X, Y, and Z how would a reasonable person react? Why not look at these accidents in a similar light?
 
Originally Posted By: kb01
[

I just think it's reasonable for manufacturers to design their product in a manner that operation would be intuitive during an emergency. Manufacturers spend millions of dollars to make the user interface as seamless and intuitive as possible. In a panic situation, I suspect most people would behave in a predictable manner, which I'm sure is well researched by auto companies.




Problem is that in the luxury segment the designers and engineers are too busy often times trying to impress the trendy customer who love gadgets, and the way they can impress their status conscious friends.

The fact is the when you are looking at designing a product like a car intuitive and rational design is often times very basic, simple, and straight forward, not appealing to luxury buyers today, at least according to the marketing gurus.

That being said I think there are a number of definitions of what entails the term "luxury". You have the US version which seems to be about very highly fashionable design and lots of options, the Japanese version where technology is the king, and then German/European luxury which high quality is the most important aspect of the product with perhaps a few more accessories than a common car has...although in recent times the Europeans have succumbed to the US type of flufxury.

I personally LOVED the older BMWs and MBs where the car was built like a tank, with tasteful, and purposeful design and just a few additional extras that you might use every time you drive.
 
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Here are the Toyota/Lexus defects:

1. Mislabeled shifter (shifter in N position, look how N is labeled):
IMG_1981.jpg


2. Emergency engine shotdown procedure unknown to Lexus owners (don't believe me? ask a few of you friends owning Lexus).

3. Problems with ECU freezing and stuck in WOT. The link is one of many examples:
http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16073

4. Lack of common sense ECU programing logic canceling acceleration if hard braking is detected.

How the above are not defects? Flood mats issues are just a smoke screen for toyota to avoid more costly fixes.

I own 2 toyota cars but I'm not a toyota vigilante and I'm disgusted by the bashing of the dead policeman.

It's a big shame.
 
I'm no fan of Toyota really, and I hate to see a loss of life as well.

But...the problems people are bringing up with the car don't explain why the trained, experienced driver FAILED to use all means at his disposal to bring the car under control.

I think there is such a prevalent culture of individuals FAILING to take responsibility and concequences that go along it in the USA today that people responding here on the forum are preprogrammed to defend irresponsible/incompetent behavior. It's the only explanation I can think of for the attempt to blame the machine for human error, WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A POSSIBLE DEFECT WITH THE MACHINE.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Here are the Toyota/Lexus defects:

1. Mislabeled shifter (shifter in N position, look how N is labeled):
IMG_1981.jpg


2. Emergency engine shotdown procedure unknown to Lexus owners (don't believe me? ask a few of you friends owning Lexus).

3. Problems with ECU freezing and stuck in WOT. The link is one of many examples:
http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16073

4. Lack of common sense ECU programing logic canceling acceleration if hard braking is detected.

How the above are not defects? Flood mats issues are just a smoke screen for toyota to avoid more costly fixes.

I own 2 toyota cars but I'm not a toyota vigilante and I'm disgusted by the bashing of the dead policeman.

It's a big shame.


You obviously dont' own one of these cars or you would realize there is an illuminated gear indicator on the instrument cluster. You don't look down to shift. It is very simple to operate. Nobody is bashing the dead policeman.
 
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