Regulators slam Toyota over 'no defect' claim

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Vizzy
I'm no fan of Toyota really, and I hate to see a loss of life as well.

But...the problems people are bringing up with the car don't explain why the trained, experienced driver FAILED to use all means at his disposal to bring the car under control.

I think there is such a prevalent culture of individuals FAILING to take responsibility and concequences that go along it in the USA today that people responding here on the forum are preprogrammed to defend irresponsible/incompetent behavior. It's the only explanation I can think of for the attempt to blame the machine for human error, WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A POSSIBLE DEFECT WITH THE MACHINE.

I STRONGLY agree that this country and society are lacking in personal accountability in general.

However, the fact remains that this car did not make it easy to stop at WOT, let alone in a panic situation. The operation of the shifter was not obvious, the means to kill the ignition with the button was not obvious, and the brakes fade instantly. Couple that with the fact that he was doing >100 mph on a populated highway with passengers, i.e. he must have been scared witless, and it would have been a heroic feat if he somehow DID get the car to stop.

At a bare minimum, since the car has an electronic throttle, it should have had a function to instantly override the gas pedal and close the throttle under hard braking from highway speeds. As has been said, BMWs (and others) have been doing this for years.

 

[philobeddoe]

please ... anything from a hard slap down to a gentle tap puts the shifter from Drive to Neutral and disengages the transmission

shifting to Neutral has been the solution since the invention of the car, standard shift and automatic

this is nothing new

 

[ARB1977]

Ill bet this Lexus had the pins installed, decided to get the car washed and never thought about making sure the mat was secured.

 

[Ursae_Majoris]

Originally Posted By: philobeddoe
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

I'm no fan of Toyota really, and I hate to see a loss of life as well.

But...the problems people are bringing up with the car don't explain why the trained, experienced driver FAILED to use all means at his disposal to bring the car under control.

I think there is such a prevalent culture of individuals FAILING to take responsibility and concequences that go along it in the USA today that people responding here on the forum are preprogrammed to defend irresponsible/incompetent behavior. It's the only explanation I can think of for the attempt to blame the machine for human error, WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A POSSIBLE DEFECT WITH THE MACHINE.


please ... anything from a hard slap down to a gentle tap puts the shifter from Drive to Neutral and disengages the transmission

shifting to Neutral has been the solution since the invention of the car, standard shift and automatic

this is nothing new


I'd love to see both of you arm-chair commandos in the CHP officer's spot. But then maybe I don't. The stink would be unbearable in that car.
You have the most self-conceited and boastful attitude that I've seen in a long, long time. I bet you think that you are better drivers than Mark Martin, Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart and Junior combined.

 

[opus1]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: kb01
I almost wonder if it would just make sense to update the software in regards to the on/off button. In a panic, I imagine somebody would repeatedly hit the button instead of holding it down. Why doesn't Toyota program it in a way that if it's repeatedly pressed (ie, 3x quickly) it shuts the car down?

Auto companies, especially luxury brands, spend a lot of money trying to make controls as intuitive as possible; it seems odd that it never occurred to anyone that an emergency shutdown should be any different.


If someone did not read the manual and pressed it twice or 4 times they would be in the same situation.

A continuous press until the engine shuts off is the best. Just press it till it dies.

That is if you read the owners manual. The one that says READ THIS BEFORE OPERATION....

It's ok, there will be a sticker (I'd bet bigger than life) that will say;

IN CASE OF EMERGENCY, PRESS ENGINE START FOR 3 SECONDS TO TURN OFF ENGINE.

Then they will also have a loud chime or buzzer to let you know that you are pressing the button....

Bill

And if Microsoft is involved, when you press/hold the button and the chime starts, a window will pop up on the display asking "Are you sure?"

 

[Vizzy]

Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris
[
I'd love to see both of you arm-chair commandos in the CHP officer's spot. But then maybe I don't. The stink would be unbearable in that car.
You have the most self-conceited and boastful attitude that I've seen in a long, long time. I bet you think that you are better drivers than Mark Martin, Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart and Junior combined.



I'll give you that that interior might indeed have stank too if I was driving, BUT my first objective frightened or not would be to save my life any way possible and using any means I had....The trained driver had PLENTY of time to over come his initial panic and use his noggin and all he need do was slap t he tranny into N. Period. Heck even if he had to fiddle when slotting it he certainly would have found it in time. Instead he did NOTHING, it is inexplicable!

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Here are the Toyota/Lexus defects:

1. Mislabeled shifter (shifter in N position, look how N is labeled):

2. Emergency engine shotdown procedure unknown to Lexus owners (don't believe me? ask a few of you friends owning Lexus).

3. Problems with ECU freezing and stuck in WOT. The link is one of many examples:
http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16073

4. Lack of common sense ECU programing logic canceling acceleration if hard braking is detected.

How the above are not defects? Flood mats issues are just a smoke screen for toyota to avoid more costly fixes.

I own 2 toyota cars but I'm not a toyota vigilante and I'm disgusted by the bashing of the dead policeman.

It's a big shame.


You obviously dont' own one of these cars or you would realize there is an illuminated gear indicator on the instrument cluster. You don't look down to shift. It is very simple to operate. Nobody is bashing the dead policeman.


Yes, I don't own Lexus. So the person who started this thread:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1859407
But he tried one out. Here is what he wrote:
Quote:

Now about the transmission. From all "apearances" the left gate is the one you would use. It is lit, shows neutral, drive, lower gears. The right gate is for reverse and park. The very short center gate appears to do nothing. So with gear selection lever in the left gate and in the drive positon I pushed the gear selector all the way forward to neutral. Nothing. I accelerated and while accelerating pushed the lever all the way against the neutral position which is as far forward as it will go in the left gate. Again nothing, the transmission stays engaged.

So, what about downshifting? As I expected you can downshift progressively with each pull of the gear selector toward the rear. Downshift up to a point that is. The ECU controls how far down you can shift or if you can downshift at all, based on speed. At speed you cannot downshift. Reverse is locked out.

But what does that short center section do. No lights, no nothing but it is a gate. So I shifted into it. Here my options are drive and neutral, nothing else and nothing marked as best I could tell. Push forward on the gear selection lever in the center gate and the transmission goes into neutral regardless of throttle position. Yes, the engine will rev when in heavy acceleration and idle if you push the lever to neutral. Just like it should. What is a problem is that if you weren't familiar with the car and in a panic you might not recognize this gate as a viable option. I only tried it because I was testing everything. Wasn't my car. So, there is a functioning, non computer locked out neutral.


For many years the shifter design was required to be PRND. IMO, the above shifter is poorly designed, poorly labeled and not true PRND.

As for the dead policeman bashing, driver fault and error is the only thing we hear in this thread. Interesting, it's been the Toyota defense for many years. Yet, Toyota recently became new Audi regarding brakeaway cars. Are only Toyota drivers stupid enough that they don't know how to drive the car?

 

[philobeddoe]

Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris
I'd love to see both of you arm-chair commandos in the CHP officer's spot. But then maybe I don't. The stink would be unbearable in that car.
You have the most self-conceited and boastful attitude that I've seen in a long, long time. I bet you think that you are better drivers than Mark Martin, Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart and Junior combined.


i've been in that spot and i'm posting from experience

there's nothing conceited or boastful about it

if you don't like what you read, and you have nothing positive to contribute, you should feel free to stay out of the thread

while you're gloating in your smug self righteousness, try to remember to shift to neutral if you ever find yourself in this situation

it will save your life, and lives of your innocent passengers, as well as those with whom you share the road

 

[d00df00d]

This must be that "copy-paste" thing that people are talking about. I should learn to do that. Repetition really seems to improve how right you are.

 

[friendly_jacek]

good read on history of the Toyota Sudden Acceleration Timeline from http://www.safetyresearch.net/toyota-sud...ation-timeline/

It's very interesting that every time consumers complained, NHTSA sided with Toyota. At least until now that the cop died. Isn't NHTSA too cozy with the industry?

This was from august 2008:
Quote:
The agency notes: “For those vehicles where the throttle control system did not perform as the owner believes it should have, the information suggesting a possible defect related to motor vehicle safety is quite limited. Additional investigation is unlikely to result in a finding that a defect related to motor vehicle safety exists or a NHTSA order for the notification and remedy of a safety-related defect as requested by the petitioner. Therefore, in view of the need to allocate and prioritize NHTSA’s limited resources to best accomplish the agency’s safety mission, the petition is denied.”

 

[PT1]

For many years the shifter design was required to be PRND. IMO, the above shifter is poorly designed, poorly labeled and not true PRND.

As for the dead policeman bashing, driver fault and error is the only thing we hear in this thread. Interesting, it's been the Toyota defense for many years. Yet, Toyota recently became new Audi regarding brakeaway cars. Are only Toyota drivers stupid enough that they don't know how to drive the car?

I have owned 2 and the shifter is definitely NOT poorly designed. You just want to bash Toyota. If you don't own one of these vehicles then you should not try to speak from experience...doing so is really fraudulent.

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: Vizzy
I don't know about European brands but my guess is that if Mercedes or BMW had a push to start model that they would have had the foresight to program the button just the way you describe, if it detected multiple presses in quick succession the car would shut down.


Aren't there Mercedes and BMW vehicles with push button start? Anyone have one that can confirm how the emergency shut down works on Mercedes/BMW vehicles.

If they do have push button starts and they do work the way Vizzy suggests, will it prove once and for all that the Europeans are better than the Japanese, or will it prove Vizzy to be some sort of clairvoyant?

This is me being sarcastic in case it's not recognized as such...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: rcy
Aren't there Mercedes and BMW vehicles with push button start? Anyone have one that can confirm how the emergency shut down works on Mercedes/BMW vehicles.

If they do have push button starts and they do work the way Vizzy suggests, will it prove once and for all that the Europeans are better than the Japanese, or will it prove Vizzy to be some sort of clairvoyant?

This is me being sarcastic in case it's not recognized as such...


Kamikaze? LOL!!!

 

[Vizzy]

As unfortunate as this incident was, it may be of some actual USFULNESS because it will encourage dealers selling cars to explain to the dummies( that refuse to learn themselves or READ the manual that clearly describes each function of the car) how to properly operate such things as the brakes, steering, transmission, starter....no wait gosh darnit, if they can't figure these things out for themselves after buying a tech laden vehicle they should be restricted to only operating a tricycle or big wheel and remain on the sidewalk or their keepers driveweay.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: PT1

You just want to bash Toyota. If you don't own one of these vehicles then you should not try to speak from experience...doing so is really fraudulent.


I own 2 toyotas. One has DBW but fortunately an ignition switch. My wife drives that one. She had no idea how to react in an unwanted acceleration. I explained the best how I could, but not sure how she would react in an extreme situation. You probably know that many people tend to be paralyzed by fear.

BTW, my wife's car, RAV4, is known to have problems with unwanted acceleration, yet no problems with floor mats. The mat is well attached by 2 nice and strong hooks.

I'm upset by Toyota not being honest about the problem and blowing smoke about floor mat recall "fixing" the problem. It may fix some but clearly not all problems. It happens to be very cheap "fix" too.

 

[rcy]

If your mats weren't attached with 2 nice and strong hooks, maybe then you'd have unwanted acceleration.

Or, if you had placed heavy rubber winter mats on top of your carpet mats, so the winter mat couldn't attach to the hooks, then maybe you'd have unwanted accleration.

From what I understand, the car that crashed had hooks, but the mats in that car were not attached (and weren't the right mats for that vehicle)

 

[Vikas]

Who made the 911 call? Did the driver had time to make the call? Ironically, if it was not for the 911 call and if the driver was a low-lifer, we all here would be the first one blaming that driver and would have dismissed this incident as some maniac driver losing the control of his vehicle.

The 911 call and CHIP officer changed the entire dynamics. If you want to think logically, think how it would have played out with somebody who stole a brand new Lexus and crashed because his gas pedal got stuck.

Technically, none of the technical factors would have changed except our way of looking at them.

- Vikas

 

[Bill in Utah]

Brother in the car made the 911 call.

 

[exranger06]

Not to go off-topic, but the Lexus hit an SUV before driving off the cliff. Does anyone know what happened to the driver/occupant(s) of the SUV?

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: exranger06
Not to go off-topic, but the Lexus hit an SUV before driving off the cliff. Does anyone know what happened to the driver/occupant(s) of the SUV?

The victim in the Ford Explorer was taken by ambulance to a nearby hospital. Investigators said that victim was not seriously injured.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local-beat/Stuck-Accelerator-Blamed-for-Four-Deaths---.html

The point is that not only drivers or occupants are at risk with this issue.