US probes electronics in Toyota recall.

[aaxb970]

U.S. probes electronics in Toyota recall
By Chris Isidore, senior writerFebruary 2, 2010: 8:02 PM ET


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Federal investigators are looking into whether the problem with Toyota gas pedals goes beyond the fix announced by the company Monday and involves the vehicles' electrical system.

The National Highway Transportation Safety Administration also is looking into possible civil penalties for Toyota (TM).

Both the investigation into the vehicles' electrical system and the possible penalties were confirmed by an agency official who asked to remain anonymous. The official says the safety agency is looking at the possibility that electromagnetic interference might somehow be causing Toyota's electronic throttle control systems to malfunction, though NHTSA has not seen evidence to support that yet.

Another NTSHA official said this is not an official defect investigation.

"We will continue to cooperate fully with NHTSA on all vehicle safety issues," said Brian R. Lyons, safety and quality communications manager for Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A.

Toyota recalled 2.3 million vehicles on Jan 21 due to problems with sticking gas pedals that cause the vehicles to accelerate out of control and later halted the sale of the eight vehicles involved in the recall.

Monday, company officials announced they had found a solution that involved reinforcing the pedal assembly with a part that is being rushed to dealerships.


0:00 /5:47Toyota exec confident in pedal fix
The company restarted sales of the vehicles that have been fixed in that manner.

But its U.S. sales plunged 16% in January due to the halt in sales. The drop allowed Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) to pass Toyota into the second place in U.S. auto sales, behind only General Motors.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood issued a statement Tuesday saying that "Toyota is taking responsible action" in the fix, but criticizing its process.

"It unfortunately took an enormous effort to get to this point," he said, saying DOT officials had to fly to Japan to push the company to fix the pedal.

"We're not finished with Toyota and are continuing to review possible defects and monitor the implementation of the recalls," he said in the statement.

Toyota issued a response to LaHood in which it said: "We are very grateful for the advice of all the government agencies involved and feel that through our handling of the recall we have a chance to regain the trust of our customers."

 

[MONKEYMAN]

My gut tells me there is an electronic cause. Some accounts seem to indicate an electronic cause. Time will tell. It will be interesting how this plays out. I just hope on one else is hurt.

 

[JDD]

Of course they are. It would make sense to look at all possibilities, just in case it is not the pedal or linkage. Another argument for drive by wire? Then again, if it is the electronics---???. Anyway, I would be shocked if it is not a mechanical issue in the pedals. Let's also not lose sight that statistically, this is a very low occurance issue, percentagewise (I know, small consolation to the injured or worse). If it were an electronic issue, it would be most likely be MUCH more widespread. People report that the pedal sticks down. Electronics do not pull the pedal down unless cruise is on, and that system has several safeguards in it to disengage it. Not to defend Toyota, but when it comes to malfunctioning parts, my experience has been that Toyota is historically better than others. But since this is a safety issue, it gets blown out of proportion IMO. I will take a any toyota over a GM pickup/suv that has a 75% chance of needing new fuel pump(s), idler and pitman arms, lower intake manifold gasket(s), trans (4l60E) if you tow, and door springs before 100K. Plus don't forget the gummint now has a rooting interest in knocking down toyota to potentially pump up it's own GM. A conflict of interest for sure at the very least.

 

[chad8]

Originally Posted By: MONKEYMAN
My gut tells me there is an electronic cause. Some accounts seem to indicate an electronic cause. Time will tell. It will be interesting how this plays out. I just hope on one else is hurt.


+1 Toyota would not have been so hesitant to fix it and denied the problem initially if it was just a floor mat or "spacer" problem.
Their quality since about the year 2000 has been getting steadily worse no matter what consumer reports says. They still might be at the top ,but not for long. Hyundai is equal or surpassing them now. Subaru is gaining ground and so is Ford.
The reason Toyota's quality was so high was two fold. They used older proven technologies for decades and the same engine designs. They also had a well proven supplier chain just like General Motors did in the 70's . They have lost their edge on both fronts. This is one result.

 

[Rickey]

Where do i start? Hmmmmm

JDD:

At least you no not defend Toyota that's a good start in the "moving forward" direction.

And where did you obtain those fantastic failure statistics for GM pickup/suv.
Darn my whole county must be an exception to those statistics, what an anomaly!
From your post one might believe that the roads would be strewn with disabled GM products.

And as far as knocking down Toyota... well Toyota themselves have been doing a fast forward job of it themselves since at least 2001.
They don't need any help in this endeavor it seems.
So I believe I can call the Government Motors Conspiracy off for now.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

I would certainly agree that a software issue would be likely to occur much more frequently and consistently. And what about all the other tasks the ECU has to do like fire the spark plugs and pulse the fuel injectors? It seems to be getting those right at the same time as erroneously requesting full throttle, so it's not crashing and no one has mentioned a CEL showing.

An electrical issue may be more rare but it would also hang around longer and not all of a sudden "fix" itself. Also, a CEL would result from any irregularity in the signal(s) from the pedal.

The sensor in the pedal is some sort of variable reluctance device (I think,) which has an AC current run through a fixed coil and the inductance is varied by a ferrous blade on the pedal. Perhaps metal present in some shoes is affecting it?

There was a report from a person who believes the throttle shafts are cracking and sticking, but that event leaves firm evidence. Also, a discrepancy between actual throttle position and requested position would trigger a CEL.

Considering the history of the Audi fiasco, a lot of reports can come from people who firmly believed control of the car was taken from them when nothing was really proven.

 

[Rickey]

As for that small steel plate and electromagnetic interference:

If it were to be electromagnetic interference the small steel plate could be a game changer electromagnetically speaking.

If so it would be very shrewd on Toyota's part.
An electrical repair disguised as a mechanical repair.
It is to be located in the vicinity of the hall effect sensor.

And yes I am an EE and sometimes I tell my self that I understand such things. And sometimes I am left to wonder. HeHe

 

[PT1]

I see a government that owns 2 car companies attacking the competition.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: Rickey
As for that small steel plate and electromagnetic interference:

If it were to be electromagnetic interference the small steel plate could be a game changer electromagnetically speaking.

If so it would be very shrewd on Toyota's part.
An electrical repair disguised as a mechanical repair.
It is to be located in the vicinity of the hall effect sensor.

And yes I am an EE and sometimes I tell my self that I understand such things. And sometimes I am left to wonder. HeHe


The denso ETC unit in my Toyotas has no steel plate. You might be onto something.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: PT1
I see a government that owns 2 car companies attacking the competition.


So the NHTSA was wrong to force Toyota to recall those cars, and to investigate further to make sure they aren't pulling the wool over our eyes to save money? (As many large companies have done in the past to save a buck)

 

[Rickey]

Originally Posted By: PT1
I see a government that owns 2 car companies attacking the competition.


There is nothing to see here, Nothing at all.
Nothing really happened.
Move along now... Keep moving forward.
No! No! No! Not that fast! Slow down.

"Oh! What a feeling"

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: chad8

The reason Toyota's quality was so high was two fold. They used older proven technologies for decades and the same engine designs. They also had a well proven supplier chain just like General Motors did in the 70's . They have lost their edge on both fronts. This is one result.


Most of their quality problems come from the US and Canadian suppliers. When they expanded production they were forced (due to limited capacity of their existing suppliers)to expand and use the US & Canadian supplier tiers. You will notice the vin numbers on all of the recalled models are the US & Canadian built ones. I have 2 Japanese made Toyotas and one Japanese made Lexus (all 3 2008 models) none are subject to these recalls. You can bet they will crank the screws down on all North American suppliers from here on out. I am sure CTS is finished. Watch Honda and Nissan dump them too.

 

[Rickey]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: Rickey
As for that small steel plate and electromagnetic interference:

If it were to be electromagnetic interference the small steel plate could be a game changer electromagnetically speaking.

If so it would be very shrewd on Toyota's part.
An electrical repair disguised as a mechanical repair.
It is to be located in the vicinity of the hall effect sensor.

And yes I am an EE and sometimes I tell my self that I understand such things. And sometimes I am left to wonder. HeHe


The denso ETC unit in my Toyotas has no steel plate. You might be onto something.


I have read UE reports concerning Denso equipped vehicles as well.

IMHO the problem is the lack of a cross check circuit.
Leaving out the cross check saves money per vehicle and compromises safety in a very bad way.
(Deceased drivers do not testify against the car manufacturer.)

 

[Rickey]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: chad8

The reason Toyota's quality was so high was two fold. They used older proven technologies for decades and the same engine designs. They also had a well proven supplier chain just like General Motors did in the 70's . They have lost their edge on both fronts. This is one result.


Most of their quality problems come from the US and Canadian suppliers. When they expanded production they were forced (due to limited capacity of their existing suppliers)to expand and use the US & Canadian supplier tiers. You will notice the vin numbers on all of the recalled models are the US & Canadian built ones. I have 2 Japanese made Toyotas and one Japanese made Lexus (all 3 2008 models) none are subject to these recalls. You can bet they will crank the screws down on all North American suppliers from here on out. I am sure CTS is finished. Watch Honda and Nissan dump them too.


Why couldn't they just use the same parts suppliers that GM uses?
GM does not have these fatal type problems with unintended acceleration.
Maybe GM's spec for ECM's and throttle sensors is too expensive for Toyota?

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: PT1
I see a government that owns 2 car companies attacking the competition.

GOOD! It's about time. Our Federal Government has been attacking Detroit wih stupid policies and regulation for 40 years. Let Toyota deal with them for a while.

 

[Rickey]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: PT1
I see a government that owns 2 car companies attacking the competition.

GOOD! It's about time. Our Federal Government has been attacking Detroit wih stupid policies and regulation for 40 years. Let Toyota deal with them for a while.

+1

 

[tomcat27]

I believe that a major consumer research organization (with a magazine) did their own stat research in 2008 and determined that 43% of all UA were in toyota/lexus. there was no government conspiracy that generated those numbers. toyota has been quick to blame their supplier (chrysler is big on blaming suppliers for quality issues also.... when will they get it that the consumer doesn't care) when by their own admission the part fails as part of the automotive system as a whole (the heater in the car causes condensation....) and I know its not always easy to think in a panic situation - but people need to put the car in neutral or shut it off.

 

[MONKEYMAN]

I guess I'm suspect of Toyota engineering that produced the oil burning Corolla's, sludge prone motors, and transmissions that fail. (I am finding out about the sludge prone motor and transmission failure that applies to the 2001 Lexus RX300 I am servicing). The few times I went to a Toyota dealership they were tremendously arrogant. I remember the finance person blaming sludged motors completely on the owner. I hope Toyota gets there priorities straight. Seems to me they lost sight of what made them so desirable in the first place.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: PT1
I see a government that owns 2 car companies attacking the competition.

GOOD! It's about time. Our Federal Government has been attacking Detroit wih stupid policies and regulation for 40 years. Let Toyota deal with them for a while.

Those "stupid policies" have kept upstarts from attacking the major players. Look at all the crazy European imports that bit it from 1975-1980 with smog and safety issues. Same as any other industry manipulating the game for the currently vested. One has to be a "stern man" (assistant) for two years just to get a lobstering license now.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: chad8

The reason Toyota's quality was so high was two fold. They used older proven technologies for decades and the same engine designs. They also had a well proven supplier chain just like General Motors did in the 70's . They have lost their edge on both fronts. This is one result.


Most of their quality problems come from the US and Canadian suppliers. When they expanded production they were forced (due to limited capacity of their existing suppliers)to expand and use the US & Canadian supplier tiers. You will notice the vin numbers on all of the recalled models are the US & Canadian built ones. I have 2 Japanese made Toyotas and one Japanese made Lexus (all 3 2008 models) none are subject to these recalls. You can bet they will crank the screws down on all North American suppliers from here on out. I am sure CTS is finished. Watch Honda and Nissan dump them too.


Yeah Bubba and Jim-Bob are lucky to be able to tie their own shoes in the morning let alone assemble a gas pedal for a superior company like Toyota

It amazes me that the SR-71 was able to get off the ground with all its inferior American engineering; it would have done Mach 30 with some Japanese engines in there..... Too bad it had to have Pratt & Whittney.

And then we talk about COMPUTER hardware? I'm amazed Toyota hasn't developed a CPU to obsolete everything "dumb 'ol American Intel" has developed in the last decade, since they obviously have the superior Japanese engineering advantage....

Yeah, we are all just a bunch of bumbling retards on this continent who've managed to be leaders in Aerospace, computing power, and networking equipment..... I can't wait for the Japanese to teach Cisco a lesson.