He probably meant SCR
What makes Euro oils different?
- Thread starter FlyingTexan
- Start date
Not trying to beat a dead horse, but with all the talk about ESP, how readily available it is and the specifications it meets, it got me thinking if that's what I want to use being I'm only doing 5k mile drains. I may run it and see how it does at some point. Also considering VRP. I have one more OCI of Amsoil. I may even stay with Amsoil.
Some of the European specifications restrict certain ester base oils?
"more or less all additive packages have converged. Of course there will be differences like the phosphorus ppm etc., but there is no such thing as a Euro oil being fundamentally different than an ILSAC oil. As far as the base oil is concerned, they are all Group III and almost none are Group IV these days; so, there is no difference in that category either"
"which one has more antioxidant—M1 EP/Castrol EP/Amsoil SS or a regular Euro oil like Edge A3/B4 or Edge C3? While I don't have an answer on that, I would go with the EP oils, as they explicitly guarantee 20,000/25,000 miles of service. The guarantee on the Euro cars come from the overzealous Euro OEMs, who have never made a reliable engine to date, not the Euro oil, and you are probably taking chances while doing 20,000 miles on a regular Euro oil that does not claim that on its package."
On the GR86 forum, the data collected suggests Mobil 1 ESP is the most shear stable of all the oils, including Amsoil SS. Only Red Line was more shear stable.
Some of the European specifications restrict certain ester base oils?
"more or less all additive packages have converged. Of course there will be differences like the phosphorus ppm etc., but there is no such thing as a Euro oil being fundamentally different than an ILSAC oil. As far as the base oil is concerned, they are all Group III and almost none are Group IV these days; so, there is no difference in that category either"
"which one has more antioxidant—M1 EP/Castrol EP/Amsoil SS or a regular Euro oil like Edge A3/B4 or Edge C3? While I don't have an answer on that, I would go with the EP oils, as they explicitly guarantee 20,000/25,000 miles of service. The guarantee on the Euro cars come from the overzealous Euro OEMs, who have never made a reliable engine to date, not the Euro oil, and you are probably taking chances while doing 20,000 miles on a regular Euro oil that does not claim that on its package."
On the GR86 forum, the data collected suggests Mobil 1 ESP is the most shear stable of all the oils, including Amsoil SS. Only Red Line was more shear stable.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I saw that claim on FB ("some of the Euro approvals restrict synthetic base oils") and when pressed, nobody was able to substantiate it. Sounds like an urban legend to me.
I don't agree with this either. You buy different additive packages for different groups of approvals. Of course there are PPM differences in things like phosphorous and the like, you can't acknowledge that and then say they are the same, that's talking out both sides of your mouth.
The Euro marques have made plenty of reliable engines and BMW appears to be the only one to figure out how to do DI without massive amounts of fuel dilution. The Euro approvals aren't based on fairytales and hopes and dreams, the parameters are well detailed in things like the Afton Specification Handbook for those that are available.
I don't see fuel % listed in the above table? Are these Blackstone UOA's? And we are drawing conclusions without VOA's now? Feels like we are getting pretty fast and loose with the facts.
I wish I could see the testing specifics and parameters. For example, what European equivalent is there to the IIIH test, GM Turbo, IVA etc? Why is it assumed the European tests are more stringent?
Without knowing the parameters, we're kind of guessing. I'm not very familiar with the Euro specs. I haven't paid much attention and only go by the Lubrizol Spider Chart.
No those are collected UOA's on that forum. Most are B/S Labs. Limited sample size for sure. The consensus based on collected UOA data is the ESP is more shear stable than Amsoil SS.
Oil as a subject is drawing conclusions on very limited data. The only thing we know for certain is whether an oil meets a specification, otherwise it's all guesswork. I wish I could see more on specific testing. That would reveal a lot. For example, what is the most stringent Euro deposit spec and how does that compare to the IIIH?
Would Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 survive a double Sequence IIIH test? Would it leave a deposit score as high as Amsoil SS?
I believe @RDY4WAR knows more about the base oil restrictions in Euro oils. That's news to me.
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It does appear that the Euro oils with less overall metallic additives (low/mid SAPS) match the top tier full SAPS oils in overall performance, but at possibly lower drain intervals compared to ILSAC/GF-7 EP oils.
I think what has happened is the top tier ILAC/GF-7 EP have caught up and oils are as good as any Euro equivalent they're just lower HT/HS and using a lower tier VM. The shear stability is better but the long drain capability with less detergent and apparently restricted use of some group V could limit long drain Euro oils.
When I look at Amsoil's Euro line, at least on paper, they don't compare to SS. .
I think what has happened is the top tier ILAC/GF-7 EP have caught up and oils are as good as any Euro equivalent they're just lower HT/HS and using a lower tier VM. The shear stability is better but the long drain capability with less detergent and apparently restricted use of some group V could limit long drain Euro oils.
When I look at Amsoil's Euro line, at least on paper, they don't compare to SS. .
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Well, here are the Mercedes tests for a start. The VAG ones are also in the Afton Handbook, unfortunately, the BMW ones are not.
Thank you. I wouldn't even know where to begin to compare the overlap and how much they differ or what test is more stringent than another when comparing to an equivalent OEM from different automaker or API/ILSAC test. But that's obviously why we have approvals to begin with, so no one has to guess.
If you were to choose an oil based on that LZ Chart, Porsche C30 seems as good as it gets.
Lubrizol spider charts are not comparable unless you compare API vs API, GF vs GF, ACEA vs ACEA and so on. Says so right beside the table.
But yeah C3, C30 229.52 API SP is as up there at the top in terms of modern oils within reason.
IIIH test (NA) uses different engines so thats not really directly comparable either.
I think what gets lost is some say it only meets SP and SP is far less than Porsche C30 but they fail to realize that the top tier ILSAC/GF-7 trounce the toughest tests within the ILSAC/API world, some of which are very stringent.
I wouldn't recommend using any ILSAC/API oil in a Euro application though unless out of warranty.
The Seq IIIH is a very tough test. 303F for 90 hours.
https://www.swri.org/sites/default/files/sequence-iiih-test.pdf
I wouldn't recommend using any ILSAC/API oil in a Euro application though unless out of warranty.
The Seq IIIH is a very tough test. 303F for 90 hours.
https://www.swri.org/sites/default/files/sequence-iiih-test.pdf
GF-7 would be comparable/equivalent to the newer ACEA A7 & C7 with the new Turbocharger
Compressor Deposit test, I think
E7 for commercial has new limits for piston cleanliness as well.
Always new specs on the horizon, just like GLV-2 from JASO.
Could not tell you, we don't have U.S spec only oils widely availabe.
My guess is that they would work fine.
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Despite the disclaimer, Lubrizol does seem to make an effort to make the spider charts comparable. Some standards will use the same engine tests, with either the same limits or different limits for a passing grade, and these usually reflected accurately in the charts.
There are exceptions though, like ACEA C6/C7 showing better wear performance than API SP in the spider chart despite these standards having the exact same wear test requirements.
i swear ,you scare me sometimes
. wish we had the bmw ones..
What is the difference between Mobil 1 0w20 ESP versus AFE?
Propflux01
$100 Site Donor 2025
So out of six pages, how many believe a euro oil would suffice just fine or better on the American Car World, vs using the standard SP spec oils?
The European oils are of a higher standard. They're better overall. For the EP oils it's a bit more difficult to know with certain grades IMO.
Patman
Staff member
Quite a lot actually. AFE has the dexos1 gen3 approval and that’s basically it.
ESP has the following approvals:
dexosD
MB 229.71
Porsche C20
VW 508.00
VW 509.00
Forgive me, My intention was to refer to the formulation instead of approvals.
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If the 0w20 AFE/ESP differences are in any way applicable to the 0w30 AFE/ESP differences, the ESP should have both a higher HTHS and KV @100C, but dont hold me to it.