What makes Euro oils different?

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FlyingTexan

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With so many engines in the US using turbos and used around the world. What really makes any Euro oil different? Have we not gotten to the point where any high quality oil will meet the standards of all the manufacturers? I'm looking at the Valvoline Restore and Protect oil. Watched the video of them at the lab showing it's capabilities. Seems pretty darn amazing.

  • Meets or exceeds all requirements of ILSAC GF-6A, API SP, API SN with SN PLUS, API SN, Resource Conserving, and all preceding API and ILSAC gasoline categories

I've been reading so much on oils I feel we're coming full circle. I have a Grenadier with a BMW B58 powerplant. I've been emphatic about using LL01/LL04 oils and changing every 5k miles. Have been using Quaker State Euro 5w40 because it's cheap so supports more changes and has a lot of approvals. However, on my journey to figure out what I'm doing and scratch my general itch to learn more I kept digging and found this informative post.

If you've got an N20/26 the answer is 'timing chain'. The 01 in 'LL01' stands for 2001, when the spec for that oil was formulated. Engine needs have changed since 2001. I use Liqui Moly Molygen 5w-30. It has API SP and ILSAC GF-6A approvals. This standard went into effect in 2020, so if there was a BMW equivalent it would be called LL20. GF-6A oils are backward-compatible for older vehicles. GF-6B oils are lower viscosity, so don't use those unless your engine is rated to use 0w-16.

API SP is the new engine oil standard developed to address the critical needs including chain wear, Low Speed Pre-Ignition, and deposit formation.
GF-6 is the newest ILSAC engine oil performance standard aimed at improving fuel economy and enhancing engine capabilities for passenger cars. ... GF-6 will provide low-speed pre-ignition (LSPI) and timing chain wear protection while improving piston cleanliness and fuel economy.

At $35-$40 for 5 liters it's maybe $10 more than LL01 comparable oils, but if ten bucks is a deal breaker you should be driving a Camry. If you can find another oil that's cheaper and has API SP and ILSAC GF-6A approvals then by all means use it. For example, Mobil 1, Mobil Super, and Mobil Full Synthetic all have GF-6 approvals.
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Now should this information be accurate wouldn't it meant that in today's day and age, with all the technology we have, that oils have gotten to a point where basically ANY high quality oil with work? For my B58 I'm told "weights are a US thing, use HTHS", ok so we can ignore weights. Then we see BMW's LL01 vs LL04 spec where the LL04 had issues with higher sulfur fuels so they pushed LL01 in the US. Now the US has low sulfur fuels. Then there's the BMW LL14FE/LL17FE/LL19FE specs but basically they tossed previous requirements due to CAFE laws.

So if LL01/LL04 could be tossed for a small mpg gain, High saps LL01 can now be traded in for low saps LL04, weights can be traded in for HTHS, US manufacturers are all shifting to turbo's..... What is the real limitation anywhere? Have full synthetics and their capabilities come full circle where we can just run basically anything that's from a quality manufacturer so long as we don't try to make it 12k miles on a change (B58)? I really liked how the valvoline was keeping everything clean. If I'm changing oil every 5k miles do I need to even bother caring if it's an Euro oil or not? Seems like the more I learn the more I learn all roads point back to where I started that frankly anything works.
 
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Different operating environment and overly complex specifications.
 
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FlyingTexan said:
With so many engines in the US using turbos and used around the world. What really makes any Euro oil different? Have we not gotten to the point where any high quality oil will meet the standards of all the manufacturers? I'm looking at the Valvoline Restore and Protect oil. Watched the video of them at the lab showing it's capabilities. Seems pretty darn amazing.

  • Meets or exceeds all requirements of ILSAC GF-6A, API SP, API SN with SN PLUS, API SN, Resource Conserving, and all preceding API and ILSAC gasoline categories

I've been reading so much on oils I feel we're coming full circle. I have a Grenadier with a BMW B58 powerplant. I've been emphatic about using LL01/LL04 oils and changing every 5k miles. Have been using Quaker State Euro 5w40 because it's cheap so supports more changes and has a lot of approvals. However, on my journey to figure out what I'm doing and scratch my general itch to learn more I kept digging and found this informative post.



Now should this information be accurate wouldn't it meant that in today's day and age, with all the technology we have, that oils have gotten to a point where basically ANY high quality oil with work? For my B58 I'm told "weights are a US thing, use HTHS", ok so we can ignore weights. Then we see BMW's LL01 vs LL04 spec where the LL04 had issues with higher sulfur fuels so they pushed LL01 in the US. Now the US has low sulfur fuels. Then there's the BMW LL14FE/LL17FE/LL19FE specs but basically they tossed previous requirements due to CAFE laws.

So if LL01/LL04 could be tossed for a small mpg gain, High saps LL01 can now be traded in for low saps LL04, weights can be traded in for HTHS, US manufacturers are all shifting to turbo's..... What is the real limitation anywhere? Have full synthetics and their capabilities come full circle where we can just run basically anything that's from a quality manufacturer so long as we don't try to make it 12k miles on a change (B58)? I really liked how the valvoline was keeping everything clean. If I'm changing oil every 5k miles do I need to even bother caring if it's an Euro oil or not? Seems like the more I learn the more I learn all roads point back to where I started that frankly anything works.
Click to expand...
That comment about LL01 is completely off base. Sure LL01 indicates the date that this new specification was created but it's not locked in time. BMW like all euro automakers update their existing specifications and retire others. These updates reflect changes in the test engine (ex, N-series to B-series) and any other requirements. Mercedes Benz approvals contain their own LSPI test. The biggest difference between API and Euro approvals is that Euro approvals require tests on automaker specific engines and API obviously does not. The LSPI and TGDI chain wear tests under API SP are conducted on Ford 4cyl Ecoboost engines which have been modified in a way that is central to the test.

Although not your engine the current iteration of the B-series have been designed to allow for 0w12 and higher so one could run essentially any grade, and on a short OCI run any synthetic off the shelf.

I suspect LL01 will eventually be retired once the world moves to ULSG.
 
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RDY4WAR said:
ACEA Euro specs, and European OEM certs, aren't so much intended for the US market. They're thinking of the cars screaming at sustained 5000 rpm daily on the Autobahn.
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So they are solely geared to those few vehicles that may be operating on the half of the Autobahn that are still unlimited speed?

I thought they were oriented to resource conserving (long drain) and emissions requirements. What about all those Europeans in Spain? Or England? Or Greece?
 
A few decades ago, the European car scene was much different from the US car scene.

The Euros generally enjoyed small cars with high-revving 4 cylinder engines, manual transmissions, unenforced speed limits, and different emissions regulations. A lot of these cars driven very hard.

My buddy worked for Motul as a sales rep; I wished I had asked him about practical the differences in global specs.
 
My take is that the US/Asian manufacturers are somewhat behind the curve compared to the Euros; concerning small(er) displacement turbo engines requirements, and they're recommending oil service that is only just good enough.

That being said, the price difference in a 5qt jug of something like Mobil 1 5w-30 Ext Performance vs ESP is like $5-7?
All else being equal you may as well get the ESP version to toss into your Honda, Ford, or Dodge.

E.g. Ford asks you to use API SP 5w-30 oil in your 2.7 Ecoboost; therefore you may as well go the extra mile for API SP / ACEA C3 + BMW LL04 / VW504 / MB 229.51/52
 
BMWTurboDzl said:
That comment about LL01 is completely off base. Sure LL01 indicates the date that this new specification was created but it's not locked in time. BMW like all euro automakers update their existing specifications and retire others. These updates reflect changes in the test engine (ex, N-series to B-series) and any other requirements. Mercedes Benz approvals contain their own LSPI test. The biggest difference between API and Euro approvals is that Euro approvals require tests on automaker specific engines and API obviously does not. The LSPI and TGDI chain wear tests under API SP are conducted on Ford 4cyl Ecoboost engines which have been modified in a way that is central to the test.

Although not your engine the current iteration of the B-series have been designed to allow for 0w12 and higher so one could run essentially any grade, and on a short OCI run any synthetic off the shelf.

I suspect LL01 will eventually be retired once the world moves to ULSG.
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I understand the specifics from the engine manufacturer's side and how they do their testing, but real world are they simply taking high quality oils, making sure they meet their spec, then giving their approval? Is the only real difference with full synthetics like the Valvoline I mentioned above being that it simply hasn't been tested by the Euro auto makers? Or is there still a quality difference? With the GF-6 offering wear protection does LL01 even matter now?
 
1444buicking said:
A few decades ago, the European car scene was much different from the US car scene.

The Euros generally enjoyed small cars with high-revving 4 cylinder engines, manual transmissions, unenforced speed limits, and different emissions regulations. A lot of these cars driven very hard.

My buddy worked for Motul as a sales rep; I wished I had asked him about practical the differences in global specs.
Click to expand...
Back in the day I had a Fiat 128 4 speed that ran 4200 rpm at 60 mph in 4th gear and it was not driven that slow on the hiway if I could help it. It peaked out at about 95 mph with foot to the floor. Fun wringing that little 1300 cc motor all the time, never did wear the motor out. The chassis on the other hand....
 
FlyingTexan said:
I understand the specifics from the engine manufacturer's side and how they do their testing, but real world are they simply taking high quality oils, making sure they meet their spec, then giving their approval? Is the only real difference with full synthetics like the Valvoline I mentioned above being that it simply hasn't been tested by the Euro auto makers? Or is there still a quality difference? With the GF-6 offering wear protection does LL01 even matter now?
Click to expand...
As I understand it the additive companies develop the formula, get it tested and then sell it along with the blending recipe to the blenders. If that is true we would have to know whether or not the same additive package is used across multiple lines. That would be proprietary information which I doubt will see the light of day. I know with regards to something like Dexos it has been mentioned that an oil which is Dexos approved can and sometimes is sold w/out the Dexos approval but at a slightly lower cost. The requirement is that the oil cannot be sold with Dexos label.

As for GF-6 vs LL01. We know GF-6 has a lower min HTHS and is additive restricted compared to LL01 therefore in some applications there is a performance difference.

A more interesting discussion might be how a "premium" 20 grade compares to the euro 20 grade (LL17fe, 229.71) being that min HTHS is similar.

Note: BTW.. LL01 came before LL04. LL01 was the standard for BMW gassers in the US until they moved to LL01fe and then to the Cx 20 grade LL17fe. LL04 was limited to diesels only and by the time the US transitioned to ULSG BMW had already committed, from a regulatory perspective, to LL01fe and LL17fe. BMW would never back spec LL04 to gassers because of the worse MPG compared to LL01fe.
 
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The viscosity ratings might look similar to American oils, but European blends are specifically engineered for manufacturers' unique bearing tolerances and turbocharger requirements. It's less about superiority and more about different engineering philosophies meeting regional regulations.
 
lakestone said:
The viscosity ratings might look similar to American oils, but European blends are specifically engineered for manufacturers' unique bearing tolerances and turbocharger requirements. It's less about superiority and more about different engineering philosophies meeting regional regulations.
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No, they are not "specifically engineered for manufacturer's unique bearing tolerances". And there's no such thing as a "viscosity rating". It is about the HT/HS which is an identical measurement between any API licensed oil and a "Euro" oil.

Where do you come up with this?
 
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