Might be wise to remember that not everyone can afford to drop between $70 to $94 dollars for 6 qts of HPL products.
HPL PPMCO vs. Valvoline Restore and Protect?
- Thread starter Astro_Guy
- Start date
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- Aug 9, 2022
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BrendanC
$100 site donor 2024
the OP was asking which one…. HPL is in the thread name.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Absolutely. But it is nice that we have that option, to buy these products at a discount, thanks to Dave's participation on the board.
Nobody said it was for everyone.
But, and this is a really important point - if used to the oil’s full potential, it can easily be cheaper/mile than regular oils. Even at $90/six pack.
That is why the fleet sales are so big - big operations, in excess of 10,000 vehicles, have found that by correctly stretching the drain interval, they reduce down time and the cost/mile goes down.
Really important consideration for some operators - where a fluid change takes a very capital-intensive machine out of operation for weeks - being able to use the hydraulic fluid for four times the interval (based on testing and monitoring) saves them literally millions.
How many changes did Wayne avoid on his Durango with this run?
Under valve cover & sump pictures - 2014 Dodge Durango 174,000 miles total, 34,000 miles on HPL HDEO 5w-20
After some discussions with @dnewton3 I have decided that I will continue to run this oil. The ultimate question is, how far can this oil be run before it reaches an ultimate condemnation and what will that condemnation point be? Some possible condemnation points could be: Varnish deposits High...
bobistheoilguy.com
I know the HPL was cheaper per mile. He got 6 times the life of the “cheap insurance, change every 5,000 miles” crowd. He would have to be using oil that cost under $2/quart, and FREE filters, to equal the cost of his HPL run.
It is fascinating that people say, “oil is cheap insurance” and in practically the same breath, say, “that HPL oil is too expensive” when the actual cost/mile is lower because of the long life.
So, if you’re in the “cheap insurance” crowd - ironically, you are spending more on your cheap oil than going with HPL.
Again - wrong conclusion. Arrived at by a mis-representation of other posts.
Running short oil change interval = no particles in filter and lots of sludge in the engine.
Running long interval on HPL = particles in filter and cleaner engine.
I'm getting tired of re-posting photos of the sludged engine that was run on regular oil at short intervals and the spotless engines run at long intervals, but your statement above is simply not true.
Short intervals resulted in a dirty engine.
Long intervals resulted in a clean engine.
There is more to the discussion than short vs. long.
And the junk in the filter? An interesting side effect of running HPL in the previously sludged engine.
There is no junk in the filter on the spotless, long interval, filters.
None.
This has boggled my mind since discovering this forum a few years ago! It is cheaper in the long run. I have paid $11.23/quart shipped for two pails of vanilla PCMO HPL and I thoroughly expect to get at least $20k miles per fill. Great ROI imo.
But yet they’ll drop $26-35 three times a year on 5k OCIs at WM. Plus 3 filters…
If your engine uses no oil, has no fuel dilution issues, and want you want to minimize OCIs while keeping your engine clean in the process then HPL is your oil.
If you use oil, have fuel dilution, and dont like long OCIs and still want to clean a neglected engine, VRP seems to be the oil based on initial data (time will tell) and price point.
If you want to maintain a clean engine at reasonable OCIs then Mobil 1 has been proven to do the job.
There is no one size fits all. Nice to have options.
If you use oil, have fuel dilution, and dont like long OCIs and still want to clean a neglected engine, VRP seems to be the oil based on initial data (time will tell) and price point.
If you want to maintain a clean engine at reasonable OCIs then Mobil 1 has been proven to do the job.
There is no one size fits all. Nice to have options.
Others will drop $26-$35 twice a year on 7.5K OCIs at WMT too, and save an OC. With 2 filters. Some people here do determine an OCI with UOA data and use that to determine their OCI. With DI engines my biggest fear would be fuel dilution which can wreck the best of oils, the only way to get that out is by changing the oil sooner rather than later.
Not arguing that fuel is definitely not a lubricant… but, has anyone here actually had >5% dilution and had terrible wear metal results that then cleared up when the fuel dropped (on a ppm/1k rate, not just the total number). I haven’t seen (m)any…
I’m asking but also partly feel this is almost another “LSPI boogeyman”… my Ascent had 6.5% fuel (and 47ppm silicon!) and was actually below 1ppm iron per 1k miles. Looking at the Ascent forums (where their witchcraft beliefs and utter lack of understanding about all things mechanical makes my head hurt after reading just a handful of posts) most of the folks there, even with as short as 1300km samples all the way up to 11k mi samples were in the 2.5-3+ ppm Fe/1k. None of them had fuel as high as mine, yet their iron was ~3x higher. Majority of them were using 0w20 because of a moderator there who every third post or so was screaming “If you use anything other than 0w20 Subaru will deny your warranty!!”… so happy that we’ve got mods here who don’t let that nonsense go on!
I’m not going to argue that >5% dilution shouldn’t be changed, because it should (when it’s identified, of course). However, fuel doesn’t accumulate linearly, and so if you’re only going by this you will always be short-changing the oil, for what appears to be little benefit.
On the Ascents specifically, I’m wondering if it’s really just a simple case that the mfr went too thin to protect the engine even without any dilution or shear- there was a 6.2k sample (1,100 miles less than mine) that had double the iron and half the fuel at 3.5%. That oil ended up at 6.9cSt while mine was still at 8.7cSt. If the SuperCar 0w30 that’s in the sump now ends up with similar or better results at similar mileage, the case will be closed in my mind.
Back to @kschachn’s physics- engines can have some crutches done on the engineering side like wider bearings and higher oil volume, but if MOFT is not maintained for whatever reason things get ugly quick. And if the engine was on the ragged edge with a “clean” 0w20, either abuse or fuel will cause rapid wear. So, I get your concern but haven’t really seen objective data to make it the only thing I’m worried about.
Yes it's extra expense but if you are at 10K/1 year, how much of that was short run on the ICE? Maybe get a sample if possible and have it checked with UOA. If it comes back with no fuel dilution, good viscosity, good additive left then continue on until next year. If those results are different then maybe you want to consider an earlier change with whichever flavor floats your boat.
For me based on my UOA's, I opt for earlier changes in my really short trip, not up to temperature engines. The highway drivers get 5k to MM (possibly 8000 miles). Oil flavors accordingly but reflect mostly commercial available and sale things.
If life ever changes and much longer drives than oil flavor and OCI may change if supported by UOA. I'm not a large expensive fleet and worried about that. The costs of UOA's is more than my cost of change, I did them for my reference. Like getting a yearly physical to see if any changes. UOA every couple years/mileage that keeps you happy.
IF you ever decide to try HPL or VRP please be proactive now and C&P some filter pictures prior at those intervals and then after with the new oils. Hard to compare tried and true vs. new with your own eyes if not done along the way. Maybe no differences at all, maybe something, maybe an inexpensive (or better quality) borescope with some through fill cap or drain plug the same way. I was gifted a handheld camera one and a Cell phone plug in one. Never really saw need to purchase but since then used for seeing pipe leak, Bee hive in walls and multiple other things. Maybe I'll do some motor stuff if I remember next time.
You made valid points. You also bumped a grade. There are a lot of people here who still won't deviate from the mfg 0W20 recommendation, so that extra margin of protection that many of us get by bumping up the grade doesn't exist for them and if MOFT isn't maintained bad things can happen. I'm not disputing nor am I challenging the quality or the value of HPL oil. I'm a customer too, and still have a couple of bottles of their engine cleaner. My point is the only way to get fuel dilution out of an engine is to change the oil that's all, and changing the oil at 7.5K vs 5K as in your example changes the math quite a bit.Not arguing that fuel is definitely not a lubricant… but, has anyone here actually had >5% dilution and had terrible wear metal results that then cleared up when the fuel dropped (on a ppm/1k rate, not just the total number). I haven’t seen (m)any…
I’m asking but also partly feel this is almost another “LSPI boogeyman”… my Ascent had 6.5% fuel (and 47ppm silicon!) and was actually below 1ppm iron per 1k miles. Looking at the Ascent forums (where their witchcraft beliefs and utter lack of understanding about all things mechanical makes my head hurt after reading just a handful of posts) most of the folks there, even with as short as 1300km samples all the way up to 11k mi samples were in the 2.5-3+ ppm Fe/1k. None of them had fuel as high as mine, yet their iron was ~3x higher. Majority of them were using 0w20 because of a moderator there who every third post or so was screaming “If you use anything other than 0w20 Subaru will deny your warranty!!”… so happy that we’ve got mods here who don’t let that nonsense go on!
I’m not going to argue that >5% dilution shouldn’t be changed, because it should (when it’s identified, of course). However, fuel doesn’t accumulate linearly, and so if you’re only going by this you will always be short-changing the oil, for what appears to be little benefit.
On the Ascents specifically, I’m wondering if it’s really just a simple case that the mfr went too thin to protect the engine even without any dilution or shear- there was a 6.2k sample (1,100 miles less than mine) that had double the iron and half the fuel at 3.5%. That oil ended up at 6.9cSt while mine was still at 8.7cSt. If the SuperCar 0w30 that’s in the sump now ends up with similar or better results at similar mileage, the case will be closed in my mind.
Back to @kschachn’s physics- engines can have some crutches done on the engineering side like wider bearings and higher oil volume, but if MOFT is not maintained for whatever reason things get ugly quick. And if the engine was on the ragged edge with a “clean” 0w20, either abuse or fuel will cause rapid wear. So, I get your concern but haven’t really seen objective data to make it the only thing I’m worried about.
Oil is cheap insurance, but cheap oil isn't necessarily that... I use high tech oil as cheap insurance, though I can't get HPL here.
Here is the one baseline UOA available for this vehicle. There's not much going on here. The user's manual recommends a 20K / 2 year OCI making the idea of an extended OCI somewhat difficult to grasp. How many of us would be willing to wait 3-4 years in order to test an extended drain interval?