HPL Piston Photo

Hohn said:
I mostly agree, but only because stuck oil control rings are the primary reason you can get hard carbon packing in the upper rings and lands.

The oil control rings themselves tend to get stuck with varnish-like carbon that's sticky, but it's not abrasive the way the hard carbon on the upper ring lands can be. So we care about oil control rings not so much because a bit of consumption is annoying (and it is), but also because that consumption can lead to major piston scuffing and secondary failures that are more severe.

Oil ring lands operate a lower temperature and have significantly more cooling flow (scraping residual oil). By contrast, the lands above them get very little oil and rely heavily on thin film lubrication while operating hotter.

The more severe issue is top land carboning and bore polishing/scuffing. That doesn't just cause oil consumption, it takes out engines.

It's all but impossible to have a pristine top land if the oil control rings aren't also doing their job, because the excess oil residue working its way up the ring pack is a contributor to top land carbon.

So when I see a piston with pristine top lands and more deposits as you go down the piston, it tells me that the deposits on the lower portion are inconsequential regardless of cosmetic appearance and that the primary mission is accomplished.
Click to expand...
@Hohn I took these pictures of an overhauled John Deere 6.6L engine that had stuck oil control rings and severe bore polishing.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/john-deere-4450-7-6l-overhaul-pictures.369040/
 
buster said:
I appreciate your efforts. If the teardown shows limited cleaning, then we can surely start to question the rate/effectiveness in some engines. Maybe in some engines it could take 6 OCI....who knows....

Valvoline did what you would normally do - lab, model, engine test (IIIH), then to the field. They used a few cars, one being a Ford Explorer.
Click to expand...
That's where I'm at BTW, and I believe this to be a reasonable expectation based on Valvoline's own verbiage. It likely just works better in some applications than others and better on some types of deposits/build-up than others.

I'm hoping we'll see some similar material from Mobil based on their own modified version of the IIIH Sequence with Advanced Clean, since they appear to be trying to target the same demographic.
 
Glenda W. said:
I was a tech at a GM dealer during the 80’s and 90’s. Gasoline quality greatly improved around the mid to late 90’s. Before that point we would see fuel deposits in the compression rings in the form of a sticky varnish. Once lower tension oil control rings became more prevalent we would see the hard carbon deposits on these. They would fill the entire area between the land like below. Some may also remember the use of a ridge reamer. Those were the days🤣

View attachment 315145
Click to expand...
Ridge reamer! That's a blast from the JC Whitney catalog days.
 
wwillson said:
@Hohn I took these pictures of an overhauled John Deere 6.6L engine that had stuck oil control rings and severe bore polishing.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/john-deere-4450-7-6l-overhaul-pictures.369040/
Click to expand...
Great pics! That shows well what I assume is the progression Glenda mentioned about stuck oil control rings leading to carbon packing all the way up.

It's the very thing Valvoline Premium Blue Restore and the strong ester medicine was developed to address.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OVERKILL said:
That's where I'm at BTW, and I believe this to be a reasonable expectation based on Valvoline's own verbiage. It likely just works better in some applications than others and better on some types of deposits/build-up than others.

I'm hoping we'll see some similar material from Mobil based on their own modified version of the IIIH Sequence with Advanced Clean, since they appear to be trying to target the same demographic.
Click to expand...
Just to expand on this a bit, "other applications" could include those that are predisposed to experiencing drain hole plugging and ring coking, issues not present in the two applications being discussed with respect to Valvoline's own testing (Pentastar in IIIH and I assume the 3.5L Ecoboost in the Explorer). The Pentastar is notoriously easy on oil and the Ecoboost seems to have very well designed pistons, despite being harder on oil (TGDI), hence the dearth of oil consumption complaints.

The Subaru pistons, as I noted, may be an example of a more challenging application, as are I suspect the Audi pistons that KnappAttack has referenced in respect to Valvoline Restore and Protect meaningfully reducing consumption (along with HPL).

The application that Valvoline Premium Blue Restore was developed for (Cummins ISX) also suffers from this issue.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
buster said:
Valvoline took a GF-6 oil and got the pistons very dirty, then ran the test to clean them. They also did this in the field with a Ford Explorer for over 500k miles of testing.

So no, they actually did start out dirty. This wasn't a standard IIIH test.

“Exceeds” is the key word. Warholic was quick to point out that these types of tests are merely the baseline within the oil market, not the high bar that oil manufacturers should seek to leap over.

"Real-world testing is crucial. For instance, a Ford Mustang was subjected to extensive testing with Restore and Protect, showing significant reductions in wear and deposit formation. The testing extended to various engine components, including the timing chain cover, oil pan, and valvetrain, demonstrating the comprehensive benefits of the oil. The team also ran Restore and Protect in a Ford Explorer with more than 500,000 miles."

“And we also did a chassis dynamometer test where we put a vehicle on rollers basically and ran it 300,000 miles,” Warholic says. “Restore and Protect actually cleaned up the entire engine.”

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2024/06/dealing-with-deposits-to-boost-engine-life/

You guys are starting to sound like a bunch of Eben Amsoil dealers. The excuses are getting silly from poor lighting to not real world (even though they did real world).

HPL also completely bombed the TEOST test, which despite the questionable nature, is STILL an industry test required.
Click to expand...
Guess we found out who snagged that coveted Valvoline Restore and Protect shill money 😂
 
Last edited by a moderator:
IMO there is no way in hell Valvoline tested exotic boutique brands with some ester/AN. So that comment could be in regard to licensed off-shelf products, which would make sense. Because the off-shelf products are mostly ester-less. (ester cobase no esterized additives).

Maybe Warholic's comment about never seeing anything like it was in reference to it being some new novel, non-ester additive etc. That could also be a possibility.

That would leave room for HPL, AMSOIL Signature Series and even Torco to have the ability to free up piston rings, as some have seen.

Bottom line is these are all fantastic oils for their intended usage. And if you start with a great oil from the beginning, deposits will be kept at bay.

BTW, I got a lot of that information from here:

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2024/06/dealing-with-deposits-to-boost-engine-life/
 
Last edited:
KEVINK0000 said:
Or the more common broken piston ring in the low end shops I had the privilege of working in.Never had to look for your scraper. I owned one and liked using broken rings better.
Click to expand...
I had to wear leather gloves because I always cut my fingers using a broken ring. The black ruined the gloves, so I bought that cheap tool in the picture.
 
buster said:
IMO there is no way in hell Valvoline tested exotic boutique brands with some ester/AN. So that comment could be in regard to licensed off-shelf products, which would make sense. Because the off-shelf products are mostly ester-less. (ester cobase no esterized additives).
Click to expand...
They do note:
1 When used as directed for four or more consecutive oil changes and with continuous use. In adapted sequence IIIH testing. Piston Deposit Removal.

Given that nobody else is doing this test to demonstrate this ability, I think them claiming to be the first (again, using this test) is legitimate. Just need to keep that caveat in mind.
 
Oliveoil2 said:
7 pages? HPL is a great oil. But in the end it’s all about the Benjamin’s. Valvoline Restore and Protect at 1/4 the price of HPL…. Not a hard decision.
Click to expand...
Valvoline Restore and Protect 5W-30 5qts = $29.97 -> $5.994/qt
HPL PCEO 5W-30 6qts = $70.16 -> $11.693/qt

More than half out of the box, doesn't take into account extra for shipping or less for an HPL discount day. Run the HPL for twice as long and then what costs less?
 
Stimp said:
Valvoline Restore and Protect 5W-30 5qts = $29.97 -> $5.994/qt
HPL PCEO 5W-30 6qts = $70.16 -> $11.693/qt

More than half out of the box, doesn't take into account extra for shipping or less for an HPL discount day. Run the HPL for twice as long and then what costs less?
Click to expand...
I mostly reject the MBA side of me when it comes to these things. I can pencil out costs to the mile like anyone else, but I don't place any value on that optimization.

So one filter costs a bit less or a bit more. Some oil costs a bit less or a bit more. To me, these are not things that move the needle on the budget. If I cared more about saving money, I'd cancel some subscriptions, pare down my cell phone plan, go out to eat less, those sorts of things. That's the real fat in my budget.


I'm not terribly concerned with another $20 or $30 every 6-12 months. I'm more concerned about how well the oil is working for my car.

It it worth to buy organic milk at twice the price? Maybe. For me, probably not. For someone convinced its better, probably it is. It might also depend on how much milk is consumed in your house and if you have particular sensitivities to non-organic milk. Maybe it tastes better to you and you use for little, so it's a tiny luxury you find entirely worth it. Or perhaps you have 3 teenage boys consuming a gallon a day and it's all you can do just to keep them fed. In that case, the organic stuff might not be worth the cost.

I buy used cars, keep them a long time, and spend the money on premium oils and filters instead of payments and accessories. It works well enough for me, ymmv.
 
Hohn said:
I mostly reject the MBA side of me when it comes to these things. I can pencil out costs to the mile like anyone else, but I don't place any value on that optimization.

So one filter costs a bit less or a bit more. Some oil costs a bit less or a bit more. To me, these are not things that move the needle on the budget. If I cared more about saving money, I'd cancel some subscriptions, pare down my cell phone plan, go out to eat less, those sorts of things. That's the real fat in my budget.


I'm not terribly concerned with another $20 or $30 every 6-12 months. I'm more concerned about how well the oil is working for my car.

It it worth to buy organic milk at twice the price? Maybe. For me, probably not. For someone convinced its better, probably it is. It might also depend on how much milk is consumed in your house and if you have particular sensitivities to non-organic milk. Maybe it tastes better to you and you use for little, so it's a tiny luxury you find entirely worth it. Or perhaps you have 3 teenage boys consuming a gallon a day and it's all you can do just to keep them fed. In that case, the organic stuff might not be worth the cost.

I buy used cars, keep them a long time, and spend the money on premium oils and filters instead of payments and accessories. It works well enough for me, ymmv.
Click to expand...
Nailed it. The only thing you can’t buy is time, so occupying too much of your time to save trivial amounts of money is very foolish.

Never trade your life to save less than you could be payed for the same time investment.
 
Hohn said:
I mostly reject the MBA side of me when it comes to these things. I can pencil out costs to the mile like anyone else, but I don't place any value on that optimization.

So one filter costs a bit less or a bit more. Some oil costs a bit less or a bit more. To me, these are not things that move the needle on the budget. If I cared more about saving money, I'd cancel some subscriptions, pare down my cell phone plan, go out to eat less, those sorts of things. That's the real fat in my budget.


I'm not terribly concerned with another $20 or $30 every 6-12 months. I'm more concerned about how well the oil is working for my car.

It it worth to buy organic milk at twice the price? Maybe. For me, probably not. For someone convinced its better, probably it is. It might also depend on how much milk is consumed in your house and if you have particular sensitivities to non-organic milk. Maybe it tastes better to you and you use for little, so it's a tiny luxury you find entirely worth it. Or perhaps you have 3 teenage boys consuming a gallon a day and it's all you can do just to keep them fed. In that case, the organic stuff might not be worth the cost.

I buy used cars, keep them a long time, and spend the money on premium oils and filters instead of payments and accessories. It works well enough for me, ymmv.
Click to expand...
But you agreed Valvoline Restore and Protect is not 1/4 the price of HPL, and stating that could mislead people?
 
Stimp said:
But you agreed Valvoline Restore and Protect is not 1/4 the price of HPL, and stating that could mislead people?
Click to expand...
I agree that HPL costs a lot more. Different lines of HPL cost different amounts, and between promos and such I'm not signing up to stand behind any particular ratio of cost. And as I explained above, I don't really care precisely what the ratio is.

I used Valvoline Restore and Protect with superb results and I'm a huge fan of the oil. I'm using HPL with excellent results and I'm a huge fan of the oil.

Some circumstances might call for one, others may for the other. My GX gets HPL because I want to go even 10k intervals without any doubt about the oil lasting that long-- removing skidplates for filter changes I find VERY annoying so I don't want to do it more than necessary.

My Accord gets HPL because Valvoline Restore and Protect at 5w-30 isn't thick enough to hold my preferred min KV100 after 5k miles when the car's dilution comes in. Find the UOA I posted-- Valvoline Restore and Protect was at the upper edge of SAE 16 (KV100: 8.2) in only 4500 miles. I want my oil to hold 10-11cSt minimum at the end of the OCI. Since I can't get thicker grade Valvoline Restore and Protect, I have to look at other options.

My port-injected Odyssey was my testbed for Valvoline Restore and Protect and on that vehicle it was an absolute home run, there's just no other way to say it. Massive improvements in cleanliness. Clearly discernible improvements in engine response and MPG. (about 2mpg net). The odyssey is a super convenient oil change (no skidplates or covers, and I have a Stahlbus in it too). I can seriously change the oil hot in my Ody in under 10 min.

Would HPL work well in my Ody? Certainly. Does it make sense to be using expensive HPL in a 20 year old van where the rest of it is near the end of its life? Not to me. The Ody gets Valvoline Restore and Protect or (now that it's clean) whatever I feel like experimenting with. It currently has some API SN 0w-40 Euro FS (the old high calcium formula) that found locally in a stroke of incredible luck.

I also use Valvoline Restore and Protect in all the many oil changes I donate to friends and merely those needing an oil change when money is tight. It just very, very good and quite reasonably priced for what it is. So unless I know the application has special needs that make Valvoline Restore and Protect not the best candidate, I default to Valvoline Restore and Protect. Examples of special needs are outlined above.

Valvoline PLEASE give us a higher HTHS version of Valvoline Restore and Protect. I *BEG* you.
 
I'll update this thread that the piston picture engine is doing well. It is rebuilt and I installed new Subaru pistons and rings (get this, the last set of rings subaru had in USA for this engine apparently) and received HPL break in oil 10w40 and a hard type break in. Initial warmup oil change was Castrol high mileage on sale, then straight to HPL 10w40 break in. After 240 miles of 10w40 break in, changed again with new HPL 10w40 break in. Then cross country trip. Changed 2nd round of break in oil after 3300 miles. Engine consumes no measurable amount of oil so far. Power and mpg is very good. Engine oil used is back to the HPL 5w40 PCEO. I may use a different HPL oil in future, maybe not, but it will receive a life of HPL and whenever the engine is apart next, you'll see piston pictures here. ✌
 
mt23 said:
I'll update this thread that the piston picture engine is doing well. It is rebuilt and I installed new Subaru pistons and rings (get this, the last set of rings subaru had in USA for this engine apparently) and received HPL break in oil 10w40 and a hard type break in. Initial warmup oil change was Castrol high mileage on sale, then straight to HPL 10w40 break in. After 240 miles of 10w40 break in, changed again with new HPL 10w40 break in. Then cross country trip. Changed 2nd round of break in oil after 3300 miles. Engine consumes no measurable amount of oil so far. Power and mpg is very good. Engine oil used is back to the HPL 5w40 PCEO. I may use a different HPL oil in future, maybe not, but it will receive a life of HPL and whenever the engine is apart next, you'll see piston pictures here. ✌
Click to expand...
Do you have any pictures of the WRX? My son bought an 02 WRX as his first car when he was 16 and 8 years later he still has it and he will never sell it. He’s done quite a lot of cosmetic work on it but the engine, transmission and turbo are all original with 401,000 km on it 😎
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

J
HPL Supercar and Driven HP-X Euro Supercar SAE 5W-50
Replies
8
Views
965
Hohn
U
HPL PCMO 10w30
2 3
Replies
51
Views
2K
UGASpike
H
Amsoil and HPL
Replies
6
Views
1K
Zee09
M
Two Subarus - common oil? HPL, intervals?
2 3
Replies
42
Views
3K
kschachn
buster
There are three types of deposits which can form on pistons and rings: sludge, varnish and hard carbon. Hard carbon is the most difficult to remove.
Replies
13
Views
2K
buster
Back
Top Bottom