Or the more common broken piston ring in the low end shops I had the privilege of working in.Never had to look for your scraper. I owned one and liked using broken rings better.
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2023
- Messages
- 1,647
This is the most important aspect to protecting a gas engine. There are countless threads arguing about grade, additives, wear levels, etc., but in the vast majority of applications, those are irrelevant.
The way engines die is this:
1. Ring drainback holes get clogged, rings start to carbon up
2. Rings lock in place and are unable to move
3. Excess wear on the cylinder wall occurs
4. Blow by clogs PCV system, dumping more soot into the oil, creating positive feedback loop
5. Oil consumption worsens
6. Engine runs too low on oil too often
7. Excess wear occurs elsewhere
8. Engine fails
I’ll go so far as to say that unless you have an engine known for a particular weakness (like timing chain issues, wet belt issues, bearing wear, etc.), or you have a special use case (like track racing) really the only thing you need to care about is how clean an oil keeps your rings.
If you have a turbo, the same properties that keep rings clean can contribute to keeping the turbo in good shape.
We argue too much about 0w-20 vs 5w-30, moly levels, HTHS (gasp), etc.
The way engines die is this:
1. Ring drainback holes get clogged, rings start to carbon up
2. Rings lock in place and are unable to move
3. Excess wear on the cylinder wall occurs
4. Blow by clogs PCV system, dumping more soot into the oil, creating positive feedback loop
5. Oil consumption worsens
6. Engine runs too low on oil too often
7. Excess wear occurs elsewhere
8. Engine fails
I’ll go so far as to say that unless you have an engine known for a particular weakness (like timing chain issues, wet belt issues, bearing wear, etc.), or you have a special use case (like track racing) really the only thing you need to care about is how clean an oil keeps your rings.
If you have a turbo, the same properties that keep rings clean can contribute to keeping the turbo in good shape.
We argue too much about 0w-20 vs 5w-30, moly levels, HTHS (gasp), etc.
Are we debating the quality of cleaning oils, when we should instead be debating the long drain trends of the last 15 years?
We're debating a breakthrough oil that has a unique ability to dissolve ring carbon, something no other oil has been able to achieve other than Valvoline Premium Blue Restore which is 60% group V and a one and done product. Valvoline Restore and Protect is for continuous use.
It's taken the eye off the more important thing though which is deposit prevention. Deposits form over time and will impede piston/ring seal causing oil consumption and excessive wear over time.
In order to prove such abilities, you have to test in lab against tests that test for deposits under controlled conditions and also test in the field in actual engines in real world climates.
When you develop an oil this is what you do to validate it:
https://blog.amsoil.com/amsoil-crushes-sequence-iiih-engine-test/
People always doubting Amsoil marketing but think bigger picture. Amsoil was smart enough to focus on keeping rings and grooves clean
I would love to see the pistons on our huge fuel dilution 1.5 L T CRV. 126K miles on Amsoil since 500 miles. Some 2X the OLM.
Exceptionally clean. Put it this way for weighted average piston deposits - GF-7 4.6, dexos gen3 - 5.4, AMSOIL Signature Series 7.7 (2014 results).
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Keep in mind that the pistons you see as a result of IIIH are not starting out dirty and getting cleaned, you are seeing the result of KEEPING a piston clean, that's a very important distinction.
And, as I've pointed out elsewhere, this test is run in a port injected Chrysler Pentastar engine. This is again why Valvoline uses the words "UP TO" and notes "4 OR MORE" changes, the application will influence the results. The skirt area of the Subaru pistons posted in this thread run on Valvoline Restore and Protect aren't showing results that are in any way as glowing an endorsement as what we are seeing from IIIH.
"Keeping it real" means you necessarily must consider all aspects of what is being discussed.
Valvoline took a GF-6 oil and got the pistons very dirty, then ran the test to clean them. They also did this in the field with a Ford Explorer for over 500k miles of testing.
So no, they actually did start out dirty. This wasn't a standard IIIH test.
“Exceeds” is the key word. Warholic was quick to point out that these types of tests are merely the baseline within the oil market, not the high bar that oil manufacturers should seek to leap over.
"Real-world testing is crucial. For instance, a Ford Mustang was subjected to extensive testing with Restore and Protect, showing significant reductions in wear and deposit formation. The testing extended to various engine components, including the timing chain cover, oil pan, and valvetrain, demonstrating the comprehensive benefits of the oil. The team also ran Restore and Protect in a Ford Explorer with more than 500,000 miles."
“And we also did a chassis dynamometer test where we put a vehicle on rollers basically and ran it 300,000 miles,” Warholic says. “Restore and Protect actually cleaned up the entire engine.”
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2024/06/dealing-with-deposits-to-boost-engine-life/
You guys are starting to sound like a bunch of Eben Amsoil dealers. The excuses are getting silly from poor lighting to not real world (even though they did real world).
HPL also completely bombed the TEOST test, which despite the questionable nature, is STILL an industry test required.
You're looking at the wrong area of the piston. The crown and the top ring land area are what matter most for deposits. The skirt areas near the pin boss are non-functional surfaces. If those get crud on them, the only consequences is that the pistons run a bit hotter.
If you have to choose between an immaculate crown and pretty good ring grooves with HPL and an immaculate skirt with still dirty crown and ring grooves with the Valvoline Restore and Protect, one should choose the clean crown every time-- it's more important.
If you have to choose between an immaculate crown and pretty good ring grooves with HPL and an immaculate skirt with still dirty crown and ring grooves with the Valvoline Restore and Protect, one should choose the clean crown every time-- it's more important.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I'm talking about the AMSOIL pistons. You are interspersing pictures of different things.
Sure, and if you want to discuss the before/after results of those photos, we can do that. Nobody is doubting the product works, but the attempt here seems to be to compare very different things and then pan them as all being on equal footing with some random IIIH pictures that don't represent what's being discussed included for good measure.
Nonsense, I'm just, as you put it "keeping it real", which necessarily means making the conversation less simplistic and including the necessary nuance.
The oil control rings are the most important rings to keep clean. If they are unable to scrap the oil it reaches the compression rings. It’s pretty rare to find stuck top rings. It can happen but the stuck rings normally start at the bottom and then the deposits work their way up.
Here are the facts:
Valvoline - lab tested over 500k miles using IIIH, field, modeling. Approved oil.
HPL - basic lab testing, anecdotal filter pics with no context or conclusion, no approvals, bombed TEOST, claim to fame - "we use xyz"
Sorry that's just not how things work and @OVERKILL you should know better.
Valvoline - lab tested over 500k miles using IIIH, field, modeling. Approved oil.
HPL - basic lab testing, anecdotal filter pics with no context or conclusion, no approvals, bombed TEOST, claim to fame - "we use xyz"
Sorry that's just not how things work and @OVERKILL you should know better.
Your own post:
"Let us rather concentrate on the universe in which we, sales guys, operate: realities of the business world. To make and distribute oil at a competitive price, a company must be able to manufacture or buy the components at a competitive price, and have enough of a market to pay for the development and manufacturing cost. That company has to be able to “be a player”. Once that company decides to “be a player”, say, in the Porsche market, then the sound and professional way to operate is to present the finished product to Porsche so they put it through the Porsche 996FL Engine test.
Here is Porsche A40 testing procedure:
This test will last 203 hours. The engine, and the oil, will go through:
- 4 times the simulation of 35 hours of summer driving,
- 4 times the simulation of 13.5 hours of winter driving,
- 40 cold starts,
- 5 times the simulation of 1-hour sessions on the “Nürburgring” racetrack,
- 3.5 hours of “running-in” program
Measurements on the engine and on the oil will be done at regular intervals, and the following parameter
will be taken into account to grant the approval or not:
- torque curve (internal friction),
- oxidation of the oil,
- Piston cleanliness and ring sticking,
- Valve train wear protection. Cam & tappet wear must be less than 10 μm.
- Engine cleanliness and sludge: after 203 hours, no deposits must be visible.
- Bearing wear protection: visual rating according to Porsche in-house method.
Yeah, I understand that, and you missed my point. I’m a fan of Valvoline Restore and Protect, like you seem to be also. Probably going to run it in the dirty factory 16k OCI BMW at 275k. But my point is did the last 15 years of long drain OCI and factory oil minding create a new problem that this product solves now? What is the root cause? DFI, FI, or long drains? All the above?
Clean enough though to operate well. My thought is that 50 k on Valvoline Restore and Protect would be a different story entirely.
I see. Well deposits start forming the minute the car is turned on. It's a matter of how much over time and whether the oil can contain them. It's always fallen on the prevention side. If you use a top tier oil like Amsoil, HPL and Mobil 1 etc. that helps prevent them in the first place. So no need for Valvoline Restore and Protect.
In neglected cars, or cars only requiring a GF-7 product Valvoline Restore and Protect is a great choice.
I think GDI engines + long drains and oils that lack solvency are what lead to piston deposits later down the line.
Maybe I'm expecting too much I don't know.
All I'm saying is I'm skeptical on HPL's ability to clean back to factory levels. Maybe it can but I have not seen definitive proof. I have with Valvoline.
*for the record, I don't even like Valvoline as a brand. They have one oil I like and that is Valvoline Restore and Protect.
Also I may be wrong. As more data comes in say from mt3 and if it shows carbon after Valvoline Restore and Protect or no improvement then maybe i will reconsider. Or definitive proof with HPL cleaning back to OE, of course I'll change my mind.
Also we are talking specifically about piston cleaning here - not long drains, shear stability, oxidation resistance etc.
Also we are talking specifically about piston cleaning here - not long drains, shear stability, oxidation resistance etc.
