HPL Ester based cleaning versus solvent based engine flush.

[Bill7]

Just wanted to tap the expertise of the BITOG community.

Lets make the assumption that the vehicle owner has verified sludge / varnish under the valve cover, and has already made their decision to clean out an engine so we can discuss the merits of both options below.

There are 2 decent approaches to cleaning out sludge and possibly varnish from an engine.

Option #1: Use 1 quart of HPL engine cleaner + 3.5 quarts regular oil, and then on next oil change use 4.5 quarts HPL PCMO .
Option #2: Use a 15 minute solvent based engine flush (such as LiquiMoly) during your next 1 or 2 oil changes.

HPL Ester based cleaning seems slower (several OCI's), safer (deposits are removed slowly), weaker, and more costly.
LiquiMoly engine flush seems faster (15 minutes), more risky (more chance of sludge getting stuck in oil screen or passageway), stronger, and cheaper.

Both products ability to remove varnish and clean dirty piston rings is unknown.
Please share any feedback on this as well, so we can all learn and benefit.

Just wanted to start a conversation so we can all get feedback on both options.

 

[TiGeo]

Just wanted to tap the expertise of the BITOG community.

Lets make the assumption that the vehicle owner has verified sludge / varnish under the valve cover, and has already made their decision to clean out an engine so we can discuss the merits of both options below.

There are 2 decent approaches to cleaning out sludge and possibly varnish from an engine.

Option #1: Use 1 quart of HPL engine cleaner + 3.5 quarts regular oil, and then on next oil change use 4.5 quarts HPL PCMO .
Option #2: Use a 15 minute solvent based engine flush (such as LiquiMoly) during your next 1 or 2 oil changes.

HPL Ester based cleaning seems slower (several OCI's), safer (deposits are removed slowly), weaker, and more costly.
LiquiMoly engine flush seems faster (15 minutes), more risky (more chance of sludge getting stuck in oil screen or passageway), stronger, and cheaper.

Both products ability to remove varnish and piston rings is unknown - Please share any feedback on this as well, so we can all learn and benefit.

Just wanted to start a conversation so we can all get feedback on both options.

I think you know my take but here it is. I don't believe the LM engine flush product is so harsh that things are de-sludging and clogging up anything. In fact, to those using the HPL products....they are litterally posting pics of actual bits of crud in their filters so not sure why folks think the HPL is so different w/r to things clogging up screens etc. I've used the LM flush product in multiple vehicles/multiple times without issue as have a bazillion VW/Audi/BMW owners that are bombarded by LM's social media marketing of this product. Heck I've dumped a can of Sea Foam in my W8 Passat to unstick a bad cam adjuster and it...worked.

I vote for using a can of the LM engine flush next time you change the oil. Change it with whatever you like and add the HPL EC to that fill. Run it out per their instructions...I think it's ~2K miles? LM engine flush again. Drain. Fill with HPL oil and give that a go as it's been shown to do some cleaning. This should really help out getting thing started w/r to cleaning it out.

 

[Bill7]

I think you know my take but here it is. I don't believe the LM engine flush product is so harsh that things are de-sludging and clogging up anyhting. In fact, to those using the HPL products....they are posting pics of actual bits in their filters so not sure why folks think the HPL is so different w/r to things clogging up screens etc.. I've used the LM flush product in multiple vehicles/multiple times without issue as have a bazillion VW/Audi/BMW owners that are bombarded by LM's social media marketing of this product. Heck I've dumped a can of Sea Foam in my W8 Passat to unstick a bad cam adjuster and it...worked.

I vote for using a can of the LM engine flush next time you change the oil. Change it with whatever you like and add the HPL EC to that fill. Run it out per their instructions...I think it's ~2K miles? LM engine flush again. Drain. Fill with HPL oil and give that a go as it's been shown to do some cleaning. This should really help out getting thing started w/r to cleaning it out.

Thanks TiGeo - So you advocate doing both approaches simultaneously. Sounds good.

Would either approach (Ester or Solvent based cleaning) be able to remove varnish or clean dirty piston rings?

Also, would using LiquiMoly solvent based cleaner with each of the next 5 oil changes do any damage to the engine like cause more wear?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Just wanted to tap the expertise of the BITOG community.

Lets make the assumption that the vehicle owner has verified sludge / varnish under the valve cover, and has already made their decision to clean out an engine so we can discuss the merits of both options below.

There are 2 decent approaches to cleaning out sludge and possibly varnish from an engine.

Option #1: Use 1 quart of HPL engine cleaner + 3.5 quarts regular oil, and then on next oil change use 4.5 quarts HPL PCMO .
Option #2: Use a 15 minute solvent based engine flush (such as LiquiMoly) during your next 1 or 2 oil changes.

HPL Ester based cleaning seems slower (several OCI's), safer (deposits are removed slowly), weaker, and more costly.
LiquiMoly engine flush seems faster (15 minutes), more risky (more chance of sludge getting stuck in oil screen or passageway), stronger, and cheaper.

Both products ability to remove varnish and clean dirty piston rings is unknown.
Please share any feedback on this as well, so we can all learn and benefit.

Just wanted to start a conversation so we can all get feedback on both options.

IMO....
LM won't do the same thing as EC. LM will loosen stuck rings and dissolve some soft stuff (think soft gelatinous sludge) but it won't remove varnish.

EC will do a more complete job due to the nature of the ingredients (Ester/AN) which allows for long term exposure to high temperature operating environments that will allow varnish to slowly dissolve back into the oil. Remember LM is 10-15mins idling in hot oil. That's it.

BTW neither EC or LM are as strong as some of HPL's standard offerings.

The price difference between LM (x2) vs one bottle of EC is negligible.

Another thing is that a lot of varnish which we can see (under valve covers) has taken years to develop and that areas is largely splash lubricated. The removal of that varnish is in part going to depend on the degree in which the part is exposed to oil.

 

[TiGeo]

Thanks TiGeo - So you advocate doing both approaches simultaneously. Sounds good.

Would either approach (Ester or Solvent based cleaning) be able to remove varnish or clean dirty piston rings?

Also, would using LiquiMoly solvent based cleaner with each of the next 5 oil changes do any damage to the engine like cause more wear?

TBH - I don't think anyone here actually knows b/c it's hard to check/measure. Folks check their filters to see but nobody is tearing their engine down here to verify. I've used the LM product 6x in my Sportwagen and it's very clean inside from what I have seen and no negatives that I can tell. I really don't think this product hurts a thing and for $15 why not give it a shot? I think the long-game here is using HPL oil which likely is doing some cleaning over time but nothing wrong with using the LM flush as well.

 

[Bill7]

TBH - I don't think anyone here actually knows b/c it's hard to check/measure. I've used the LM product 6x in my Sportwagen and it's very clean inside from what I have seen and no negatives that I can tell. I really don't think this product hurts a thing.

The one thing I don't like about HPL EC is needing to stop at 2k miles. Would prefer leaving it in for the first 4k miles.
Perhaps use LiquiMoly first (during the oil change), draining after 15 minutes could do enough cleaning to allow using HPL EC's first run to be 4k miles without clogging oil filter.

 

[TiGeo]

The one thing I don't like about HPL EC is needing to stop at 2k miles. Would prefer leaving it in for the first 4k miles.
Perhaps use LiquiMoly first (during the oil change), draining after 15 minutes could do enough cleaning to allow using HPL EC's first run to be 4k miles without clogging oil filter.

I ran the EC in 2 of my VWs and did 2K. I thikn some have said you can run it longer but should change the filter but again, I don't think anyone really knows here. Could also do 2x EC with just cheap Supertech oil/new filter so 2 2K changes.

 

[MolaKule]

Having used the HPL EC and various 'flushes,' I prefer the slower cleaning and frequent filter changes using the HPL EC.

HPL EC tends to soften carbonaceous chunks of material and solves them into the oil. If much harder chunks of material are detached from the rings, the filter should catch it.

 

[3800Series]

I have HPL EC in a 09 Accord I bought last year with 200k miles, cut the filter open at 1500 miles only to find a few pieces of black carbon like material the size of a grain of sand every few pleats.

It was by no means anything major, however I plan to run the oil for another 2,500 miles and drain once it hits 4,000 total miles. I really have very little clue what the internals of this motor looks like short of it burning about 1/3rd a quart of oil every 1,000 miles. It also has a lot of golden varnish under the valve cover.

I was simply hoping to reduce oil consumption more than anything, however I don't drive this vehicle much, and I might put a little over 100 miles on it in a month.

 

[Drew7a]

I like to do both, run the EC for full OCI with filter change in between, then flush at the end.

 

[MolaKule]

I like to do both, run the EC for full OCI with filter change in between, then flush at the end.

There is no need to use a thin liquid flush after using the HPL EC.

If your engine is that sludgy and varnished run two or more OCI's back to back with frequent filter changes.

 

[The Critic]

For heavy sludge applications, I have read/watched some very convincing results from this product:

 

[dnewton3]

I am 100% on board with the slow, methodical ester cleaning. Not a fan of harsh cleanings in an engine.
Slow and steady wins the race!

 

[Drew7a]

For heavy sludge applications, I have read/watched some very convincing results from this product:

View attachment 156202

I would much rather use this than all the piston soak concoctions. Every before and after with this product seems impressive from what I have seen, Varnish and Sludge both cleaned and parts are back to bare bare metal.

 

[TiGeo]

I am 100% on board with the slow, methodical ester cleaning. Not a fan of harsh cleanings in an engine.
Slow and steady wins the race!

I don't think anyone has evidence that the LM flush product is harsh in any way.

 

[RDY4WAR]

I'll give another vote for the slow and methodical cleaning of the ester based HPL EC. Aside from the cleaning, HPL EC is a fully formulated oil with an HDMO additive package, is miscible with your current oil with low risk of additive clash, and has a similar viscosity to the oil you're using. It can also boost the shear and thermally stability of the oil, reduce the volatility, and improve oxidation resistance. Comparatively, most flushes contain alcohol, naphtha, kerosene, acetone, or some other very light non-polar solvent. They typically contain no additives, don't blend well with the oil, and can be damaging to anti-wear films. The viscosity is typically in the 2-4 cSt range. Plus the ones with alcohol and naphtha usually have boiling points <200°F so they evaporate the first time the engine warms up.

 

[Zee09]

I dont think anyone has evidence that the LM flush product is harsh in any way.

Most often product bashing here has nothing to do with experience or evidence.
When you have neither they don't matter

 

[TiGeo]

I'll give another vote for the slow and methodical cleaning of the ester based HPL EC. Aside from the cleaning, HPL EC is a fully formulated oil with an HDMO additive package, is miscible with your current oil with low risk of additive clash, and has a similar viscosity to the oil you're using. It can also boost the shear and thermally stability of the oil, reduce the volatility, and improve oxidation resistance. Comparatively, most flushes contain alcohol, naphtha, kerosene, acetone, or some other very light non-polar solvent. They typically contain no additives, don't blend well with the oil, and can be damaging to anti-wear films. The viscosity is typically in the 2-4 cSt range. Plus the ones with alcohol and naphtha usually have boiling points

I did see an improvement in the viscosity drop I typically see over an oil change when I used the EC30 product in my Sportwagen for that UOA.

 

[Bill7]

Thanks TiGeo. I like your recommendation to do both simultaneously.
Oil change #1: Add LiquiMoly engine flush, run for 15 minutes, drain, fill sump with HPL EC30 1 quart + 3.5 quarts regular oil, run for 2k.
Oil change #2: Add LiquiMoly engine flush, run for 15 minutes, drain, fill sump with HPL PCMO 4.5 quarts, run for 4k.

 

[VolvoV70T5]

OCI
HPL EC
HDMO
HPL PCMO
What are these terms?

I noticed sludge under valve cover. Upon adding new Mobil 1 0w-40 FS euro, it seems a decent bit of it got removed, picture below is prior old oil. But in case that 0w-40 fs doesn’t do the job good enough. What are the recommendations, going forward? Move to the hpl line of products?