Another Tesla crash reported driving under Autopil

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
There is no concrete evidence that the model S driver of the fatal accident watched a movie on portable DVD player. Police reported that the was a portable DVD player in the car after accident, they can't say it was playing a movie or not.


OK, fully rested and alert from not having to do anything while travelling at 65MPH, the fully rested and alert driver didn't even slow as he hit the truck in his lane.

 

[KrisZ]

The portable DVD story from the truck driver is not something I would expect he made up as it is a highly unusual item in cars today with all the tablets and all. If he wanted to make something up, playing with a smartphone would've been much more probable and believable, plus there is the huge screen in that Tesla. He was apparently first at the scene, he could've easily say the driver played with that big screen, if he wanted to make something up.

Police found the DVD player and Tesla themselves confirmed the driver did not touch the brake pedal. I see no reason to doubt the truck driver. Also his insurance will take care of this, where is the incentive to lie?

 

[Shannow]

He was probably in the process of getting fully rested when he became eternally rested.


http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2013/08/21/cruise/

Quote:
“Suppose you’re driving through Nevada with a 65 mile-an-hour speed limit, you switch on the cruise control and you only occasionally see another car. Would you fall asleep? I would,” said Ralf Landmann, consultant with Roland Berger. “Even if a small number of drivers fall asleep because they have so many helping hands in the car, they are grossly outnumbered by those that are prevented from causing driving errors” thanks to electronic safety systems, he said.

“It’s crucial that car makers and suppliers convince you and me to put these features into their cars, because they are highly profitable,” Mr. Landemann said.

Three out of 10 deaths on French motorways are attributed to drivers either falling asleep or becoming so dozy that their reactions are impaired. French toll road operator Vinci commissioned the Strasbourg study as several of its road maintenance workers have been killed by cars whose drivers have become drowsy at the wheel.


Quote:
Monotony may be just as big a threat as drivers’ over-reliance on electronic aids.

“There’s a big difference between fatigue and monotony,” said Andry Rakotonirainy, professor in Intelligent Transport Systems at Queensland University of Technology in Australia. A study carried out by his department found that it takes only four minutes before a driver falls into a very low level of vigilance if he or she is physically inactive, sitting in a comfortable seat with a constant engine sound and on a road with few features.

 

[supton]

There must be a difference in terrain involved. I've driven for hours without using cruise control. Controlling speed to +/-1mph? Whatever for? How do you slow down when you think the fuzz might be around the next corner? Or easily goose it up to move around someone? Or just plain deal with different speed zones (45mph construction zones, 55mph city zones, 65mph+ zones). Furthermore, any place I've driven has these things called "hills" and you have to apply more throttle to go up them; and less going down them. Toss in some turns and there is plenty to do. I've done up to 11 hours at a clip, albeit with 2-3 quick stops. 14 hours once, but that involved sitting on the highway for 3 hours (stuck in a snowstorm).

My favorite time to drive is the end of rush hour. Lots of traffic but none of the congestion--and the traffic is moving at a good clip. But there is plenty of speed up and slow down, and lane changes ('cuz the fast lane isn't always the left lane).

Maybe out west you have more boring roads or something.

 

[Vikas]

May be I am jaded being in New England area but I very rarely use the cruise control when I travel long distances. I have driven one thousand mile in one single day with only fuel stops in a mini van without barely touching cruise control. I personally do not like how CC tries to race the engine to maintain the speed.

But using CC on a suburban road where there are traffic lights? That seems completely stupid to me.

 

[supton]

I don't mind cruise with a manual--but it's annoying with an automatic.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Go watch a couple of videos of cars with the 7.1 upgrade that came out in Jan.

I had to initiate contact with the steering wheel nearly constantly or it would start beeping I could take it off a a tiny bit of time maybe a mile or 2 on a straight road- but it would start beeping at me right away.

I don't trust anyone - however you can look down at the car while its going under you and see what the driver is looking at.


Originally Posted By: eweek.com
Statements by the truck driver reported in the police report indicate that he didn't see the oncoming Tesla until it was too late to prevent the accident.

There is a witness report that a DVD player was showing a Harry Potter movie at the time of the accident, but that has not been confirmed, although the police report did say that a DVD player was found in the wreckage.


The police diagram of crash scene below, if you account every second from the time the truck started to make the left turn, till he was at the right lane that Tesla was coming, and where he was at the time Tesla hit his truck, you will see that it was not possible for him to not see the Tesla when he started to make the right turn then he saw the driver watching the video, then he didn't see the car when it went through his trailer.

The truck driver also claim that he was at the spot where Tesla stopped about 300 feet from the accident and saw the DVD player playing Harry Potter then said he didn't actually see it but hear someone said that.

This truck driver is totally unreliable, he claimed several contradiction accounts of the accident. Probably he knew he was liable for failed to yield right of way(he was cited by police for it), he tried to shift the blame for the accident to Tesla driver.

 

[UncleDave]

Looks like a classic case of failure to yield turning left.

Id never use autopilot on a 4 lane connected freeway with left turn pull outs

Id only use it on separated freeways with right hand pull offs.

UD

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
There is no concrete evidence that the model S driver of the fatal accident watched a movie on portable DVD player. Police reported that the was a portable DVD player in the car after accident, they can't say it was playing a movie or not.

OK, fully rested and alert from not having to do anything while traveling at 65MPH, the fully rested and alert driver didn't even slow as he hit the truck in his lane.

Shannow, you need to learn how to read. Where did I say the driver was alert ? I only said there was no evidence Tesla driver watch a movie on portable DVD player, no more and no less. The 65 MPH was in Florida Police report about the accident, no I didn't make up this speed, and I wasn't there at the time of accident to know the speed Tesla was traveling at the time of accident. Do you want I post the Florida police report here ?

Don't interpret what I say to something else that was in your mind.

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
The portable DVD story from the truck driver is not something I would expect he made up as it is a highly unusual item in cars today with all the tablets and all. If he wanted to make something up, playing with a smartphone would've been much more probable and believable, plus there is the huge screen in that Tesla. He was apparently first at the scene, he could've easily say the driver played with that big screen, if he wanted to make something up.

Police found the DVD player and Tesla themselves confirmed the driver did not touch the brake pedal. I see no reason to doubt the truck driver. Also his insurance will take care of this, where is the incentive to lie?

If you see all the comments of the truck driver about this accident you will see that he is a liar, he caused the accident and tried to cover his behind, because failed to yield right of way and caused a death may be charged more than traffic ticket.

I may not trust police in many cases, but I do trust police report for accident especially the accident resulted in a death person.

 

[Nate1979]

Failure to yield is failure to yield. The turning car is responsible regardless the actions of the oncoming traffic. Drunk, speeding, not slowing down, etc it doesn't matter. However, in day to day real life a driver always is making corrections to their driving so that they don't hit someone even if you would have full right by the law to hit them. In the end defensive driving (and walking) is critical no matter whether you are legally right or wrong. This case is a perfect example because in the end the driver is dead regardless that the truck driver got a ticket and is in the wrong. My life is more valuable than the technicality of being legally right or wrong.

The truck driver getting a ticket may not absolve Tesla's liability in a civil suit because a normal driver would have had time to slow down and/or make evasive maneuvers. This is the big problem with self driving cars because it is well known that it takes a few seconds before a non active driver can immediately take over for an autonomous system. In today's litigious society where you have to put large warning on a coffee cup that yes it does contain very hot liquid the auto manufacturers have to be very careful the controls they put in place for these self driving cars.

I think Tesla is thinking too much like a tech company where Beta's and updates are all too common but the impact of those update's and Beta's are not people's lives. Musk has admitted that they put too much technology/new features in their cars (Model X is good example) and therefore suffer quality issues. They should be more careful before introducing new technology.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Failure to yield is failure to yield. The turning car is responsible regardless the actions of the oncoming traffic.

The truck driver getting a ticket may not absolve Tesla's liability in a civil suit because a normal driver would have had time to slow down and/or make evasive maneuvers.

I agree with you here.

If you read the other thread with title "Tesla Model S on auto-pilot was in a fatal crash", you will see that on the first day that the accident was announced by NHTSA on June 30 I posted my opinion below, I may be wrong but it was and is my opinion:

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Looks like auto pilot should see the tractor trailer, it should apply the brake and possibly steer the car to the left to avoid hitting the tractor.

I think Tesla auto pilot is at the very minimum partially responsible for the death of the owner/driver. The tractor trailer is partially responsible and the driver too.

If the driver didn't totally rely on autopilot he may be able to avoid the accident, or at least didn't get killed.


I think you know that I like Tesla, I deposited $1k to be on the waiting list for Model 3. But I would assign at least some of the blame on Tesla autopilot.

If you don't believe my quote above you can check the thread "Tesla Model S on auto-pilot was in a fatal crash" started by JimPghPa.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

If you see all the comments of the truck driver about this accident you will see that he is a liar, he caused the accident and tried to cover his behind, because failed to yield right of way and caused a death may be charged more than traffic ticket.

I may not trust police in many cases, but I do trust police report for accident especially the accident resulted in a death person.


The truck driver is it fault 100%, but why are you so quick to condemn him as a liar? He will get a ticked no matter what. You dug out the police report, where is the written report taken from the truck driver by the police? Why are you relying on media comments saying he stated this or that?
Fact is the Tesla driver was inattentive/distracted enough that he never touched the brake pedal. Watching a movie could cause exactly that.

Again, where is the incentive for the truck driver? But I do see the incentive for Tesla to dismiss or discredit such information. You are doing exactly that in this thread.

 

[GiveMeAVowel]

Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Was this guy watching a Harry Potter DVD like the last guy? Idiocracy is here...


You hit the nail on the head...

You can quote me on this next comment I will make..

A computer controlled "driverless" car will not be feasible/practical for at least 50 years or more for the general public / consumer.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

If you see all the comments of the truck driver about this accident you will see that he is a liar, he caused the accident and tried to cover his behind, because failed to yield right of way and caused a death may be charged more than traffic ticket.

I may not trust police in many cases, but I do trust police report for accident especially the accident resulted in a death person.

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
The truck driver is it fault 100%, but why are you so quick to condemn him as a liar? He will get a ticked no matter what. You dug out the police report, where is the written report taken from the truck driver by the police? Why are you relying on media comments saying he stated this or that?
Fact is the Tesla driver was inattentive/distracted enough that he never touched the brake pedal. Watching a movie could cause exactly that.

Again, where is the incentive for the truck driver? But I do see the incentive for Tesla to dismiss or discredit such information. You are doing exactly that in this thread.

One news organization posted this "Police report stated that truck driver claimed he didn't see the Tesla before he made the left turn"

Truck driver said this to some news organizations "The car went though my trailer so fast I didn't see it"

Truck driver said two more thing "I saw the Tesla driver watch a movie at the time of accident", "The portable DVD player was playing Harry Potter at the wrecked car, no I didn't see it I hear someone said that". How a driver making a left turn didn't look to the street he is turning into, but looked to his right for the car he didn't see just few seconds before and didn't see few seconds later, but somehow saw the driver watching movie on a portable DVD player ?

He clearly made up stories to cover his behind, he thought his was at fault for this accident that killed the Tesla driver, so if he an shift the blame to the other party so that his responsibility will be less severer, this is his incentives to lie to police and everybody who would listen to him.

Didn't you read my post just above your latest post here in this thread ? I didn't put 100% fault to the truck driver, I only assigned his responsibility 1/3 and Tesla and the driver each 1/3.

I also posted somewhere in this thread or the other thread about the Israeli company that design part of the autopilot said that current release doesn't have capability to avoid this type of accident, the cross traffic, I also posted that Tesla is responsible for not clearly educate their customers about the limitations of the current release autopilot.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Latest news about the DVD player and movie from Florida police.

Quote:
Investigators found a laptop computer in the Tesla Model S sedan involved in a fatal crash in May while running on autopilot, Florida investigators said on Thursday, leaving it unclear whether the driver was distracted at the time.

Neither the laptop nor a DVD player also found in the vehicle was running after the crash, said Sergeant Kim Montes of the Florida Highway Patrol. Montes said investigators could not determine whether the driver was operating either at the time of the accident.

The car was equipped with a computer stand, but the laptop was not mounted on the stand when investigators recovered the laptop, Montes said.


Quote:
Joshua Brown, 40, of Canton, Ohio, was the lone occupant of the vehicle and was killed in a collision with a truck near Williston, Florida, on May 7. Tesla has said the car's semi-automated autopilot system was on when the car crashed.

Witnesses who came upon the wreckage gave differing accounts last week about whether the DVD player was showing a movie.

It could be weeks if not months before officials make a final determination of the cause of the crash, the first known fatality of a Model S driver while using Autopilot. The accident has opened debate about whether drivers were being lulled into a false sense of security by such technology.


http://www.metro.us/news/florida-investi...z3js5cW4sd7LBg/

 

[ZeeOSix]

Maybe I missed it, but does the report say exactly how much time/distance there was for the car to react to the truck pulling out in front of it? If it was just a few seconds I doubt even a human with lighting fast reactions could have done much about making a proper evasive move.

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR


I think you know that I like Tesla, I deposited $1k to be on the waiting list for Model 3. But I would assign at least some of the blame on Tesla autopilot.

If you don't believe my quote above you can check the thread "Tesla Model S on auto-pilot was in a fatal crash" started by JimPghPa.


Bolded understatement of the year.... I'm kidding!

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Maybe I missed it, but does the report say exactly how much time/distance there was for the car to react to the truck pulling out in front of it? If it was just a few seconds I doubt even a human with lighting fast reactions could have done much about making a proper evasive move.

No, nobody is talking about this and preliminary police report doesn't include this info.

The final police report may not be available for several weeks or even months.

From the police graph of the accident scene I think Tesla driver could stop his car if he applied the brake as soon as the truck started to make the left turn, if he was in control of the car not the autopilot.

I posted more than 1 comment about Tesla autopilot, I would not pay for it if it is an option for model 3, if it is a standard equipment I will either remove it if it is a physical part or disable it if possible if it is a software, or never use it.

I prefer smart/adaptive cruise control, I think this is better than dumb cruise control which I used a lot.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I think you know that I like Tesla, I deposited $1k to be on the waiting list for Model 3. But I would assign at least some of the blame on Tesla autopilot.

If you don't believe my quote above you can check the thread "Tesla Model S on auto-pilot was in a fatal crash" started by JimPghPa.

Bolded understatement of the year.... I'm kidding!

You need a fairly thick skin to post anything here.

I have my opinion and preference, I know that many will not agree and we will arguing back and ford in civil manner.

I think I never called anyone name for any reason, I don't agree with some posts and some posters don't agree with me, that is very normal and there is no reason to get upset and start to call name or cussing.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Maybe I missed it, but does the report say exactly how much time/distance there was for the car to react to the truck pulling out in front of it? If it was just a few seconds I doubt even a human with lighting fast reactions could have done much about making a proper evasive move.

No, nobody is talking about this and preliminary police report doesn't include this info.

The final police report may not be available for several weeks or even months.

From the police graph of the accident scene I think Tesla driver could stop his car if he applied the brake as soon as the truck started to make the left turn, if he was in control of the car not the autopilot.

I posted more than 1 comment about Tesla autopilot, I would not pay for it if it is an option for model 3, if it is a standard equipment I will either remove it if it is a physical part or disable it if possible if it is a software, or never use it.

I prefer smart/adaptive cruise control, I think this is better than dumb cruise control which I used a lot.


I will be interesting to see that data. If the truck pulled out in front of this car when there wasn't really any time for a reaction by any human or machine to avoid the accident, then it changes the whole scenario IMO.