Another Tesla crash reported driving under Autopil

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Originally Posted By: Rand
Autopilot is not at fault. If an airplane crashes is it the autopilot or the pilot at fault??? Yea. I am not a Tesla Fan, but not a hater either.
I don't know the detail of this accident, but in the other accident in Florida where the drivers died, autopilot was at fault it wasn't designed for cross traffic. For that accident I think 3 parties are at fault, the truck driver for failing to yield right of way to traffic on highway, driver for not controlling his car, Tesla autopilot for unable to avoid the accident and didn't clearly inform owners about its limit.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Cruise control is a good feature on the open road but anything more is asking for trouble.
Too true...I got pooh pooed in Jimmy Olson's other thread for suggesting that automation leads to inattentive drivers, and an over-reaction when they DO wake up... http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/91858/1/DDI_2015_LOUW_et_al.pdf
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We found that when drivers were not in physical control of the vehicle and had an artificially reduced situation awareness during automated driving, their response to an impending collision after an uncertainty message in critical events involved greater maximum deceleration and higher maximum lateral accelerations, whilst they also maintained a shorter headway with the lead vehicle, when results were compared to manual driving performance. The response profile of drivers to a potential collision scenario wa s, therefore, less controlled and more aggressive immediately after the transition. Given that the uncertainty alarm was not a take-over-request but rather a request to monitor the system and intervene if they deemed necessary, it is difficult to accurately assess response time to an event. Nevertheless, taken together these differences suggest that following automation, drivers have a diminished capacity to respond as they would under normal manual control.
http://www.alertdriving.com/home/fleet-alert-magazine/international/Is-Cruise-Control-Dangerous
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The study, which measured the effects of cruise control and speed-limiting devices on driver vigilance and behaviour, was released by the French based VINCI Autoroutes Foundation for Responsible Driving. “The less work the driver has to do, the less alert he will be behind the wheel,” said Bernadette Moreau, General Delegate of the Foundation, which researches hazardous driving behaviours. “It is widely known that these tools are very effective to maintain safe speeds, but call for user savviness and awareness” to be safe. Driver attentiveness is a hot-button issue worldwide, with various governments pondering legislation that would supplement bans on texting while driving with strict limits, or outright bans, on using internet-enabled features while their vehicle is in motion. The study indicated that by automating control of the vehicle, there is a decline in drivers’ attention and control, which reduces their ability to respond to hazards. For example, when cruise control and speed limiters were used, drivers showed reduced ability to merge into traffic due to greater difficulty in modulating vehicle speed. The aids also caused drivers to remain in the overtaking lane for longer periods of time and to move back into the slow lane less often. Drivers straightened their vehicles less often when using these devices, and had substantially slower reaction times, especially in emergencies. These behaviours grew more pronounced with the duration of travel, especially when using cruise control. Generally, the reduction of alertness and control was greater when using cruise control than with speed limiters, the researchers said. The research was conducted by the Centre d'Investigations N
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For example, when cruise control and speed limiters were used, drivers showed reduced ability to merge into traffic due to greater difficulty in modulating vehicle speed
When I need to change speed to change lane I disengage cruise control. Th studies in your linked are all bunks, they do not reflect real life condition because they were all simulated. As I said in another post, you can extrapolate from a study of few person in a lab to real world condition. Speed control causes more accidents and deaths ? When speed was reduced to 55 MPH in 1974 the number of death reduced by 17%.
 
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
"...changes lanes when the turn signal is engaged?" This is a joke, right?
It's not a joke. It works really really well. Tesla autopilot crashes are a lot like audi 5000 brake/acceleration failures. You aren't using it correctly. UD
Yeah, sure.
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Rand
Autopilot is not at fault. If an airplane crashes is it the autopilot or the pilot at fault??? Yea. I am not a Tesla Fan, but not a hater either.
I don't know the detail of this accident, but in the other accident in Florida where the drivers died, autopilot was at fault it wasn't designed for cross traffic. For that accident I think 3 parties are at fault, the truck driver for failing to yield right of way to traffic on highway, driver for not controlling his car, Tesla autopilot for unable to avoid the accident and didn't clearly inform owners about its limit.
What? The guy was watching a movie on a portable DVD player while driving a car and Tesla mentions multiple times that Autopilot is in Beta and the driver still needs to be alert and ultimately driver is in control. The truck driver failing to yield most definitely is the cause of the crash but the death is totally on the unalert dvd watching driver. Same goes with this accident in the OP driver is not paying attention while driving a car, autopilot or not they are in the drivers seat and still responsible.
 
Originally Posted By: Rand
Autopilot is not at fault. If an airplane crashes is it the autopilot or the pilot at fault??? Yea. I am not a Tesla Fan, but not a hater either.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I don't know the detail of this accident, but in the other accident in Florida where the drivers died, autopilot was at fault it wasn't designed for cross traffic. For that accident I think 3 parties are at fault, the truck driver for failing to yield right of way to traffic on highway, driver for not controlling his car, Tesla autopilot for unable to avoid the accident and didn't clearly inform owners about its limit.
Originally Posted By: thescreensavers
What? The guy was watching a movie on a portable DVD player while driving a car and Tesla mentions multiple times that Autopilot is in Beta and the driver still needs to be alert and ultimately driver is in control. The truck driver failing to yield most definitely is the cause of the crash but the death is totally on the unalert dvd watching driver. Same goes with this accident in the OP driver is not paying attention while driving a car, autopilot or not they are in the drivers seat and still responsible.
First, I would like you to know that I am not a Tesla hater. I like Tesla enough to put down $1k deposit and wait 2-3 years for Model 3. But, like Tesla or not I saw enough documents/reports from Florida Police to Israeli company who design part of autopilot to Tesla itself and other documents/news reports to come with conclusion that Tesla is partially responsible for this horrible accident. About "Driver was watching a movie on a portable DVD player while driving a car" isn't supported by Florida Police report so far. Police did say that there was a portable DVD player in the car after the accident, but they didn't say it was playing or not. There were conflicting eyes witness reports about DVD player and movie, also some claimed that Tesla was traveling at more than 85 MPH while Florida Police report had the speed at 65 MPH, same as speed limit at the section. I believe Tesla will settle with deceased family out of court for this accident, after the driver's family sue Tesla for grossly negligent.
 
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Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Th studies in your linked are all bunks, they do not reflect real life condition because they were all simulated.
LOL, and yeah they are going to set up "real life" experiments and kill a few people to prove exactly the same thing ? Yeah right. It is common knowledge that if you have an operator of machinery, factories, heavy equipment (and yes cars) with his brain underutilised actually doing the task, their reactions when they need to respond will be slower...it's science, it's designed into factory workstations and everything. If you are on cruise control, you've travelled an extra some number of feet at CC speed before you touch the brake...if you aren't your foot is closer to the brake (on the accelerator), and the mere fact that you've lifted off to get to the brake means that you've saved some speed...surely you can grasp even THAT simple point. It's science, if you take away inputs from the operator, their mind will wander, and they become inatentive, and it takes longer to shake them back into the here and now. Tesla need to either take control entirely, and the responsibility that comes with it, but "beta" testing on public roads with a disclaimer that "you must be in a position to take control if needed" isn't providing that level of protection...clearly.
 
Originally Posted By: thescreensavers
What? The guy was watching a movie on a portable DVD player while driving a car and Tesla mentions multiple times that Autopilot is in Beta and the driver still needs to be alert and ultimately driver is in control. The truck driver failing to yield most definitely is the cause of the crash but the death is totally on the unalert dvd watching driver. Same goes with this accident in the OP driver is not paying attention while driving a car, autopilot or not they are in the drivers seat and still responsible.
Originally Posted By: teslarati.com
Fortune has released a new story citing Tesla’s SEC filing which warned investors that a fatal crash related to its Autopilot feature would be a material event to “our brand, business, prospects, and operating results.” According to Fortune, the disclosure said that the company may face product liability claims due to “failures of new technologies that we are pioneering, including autopilot in our vehicles,” adding that “product liability claims could harm our business, prospects, operating results and financial condition.
http://www.teslarati.com/fortune-questio...ion-stock-deal/ The date Tesla filed SEC paper was after the fatal accident in Florida but before the $2 billion stock offering.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Th studies in your linked are all bunks, they do not reflect real life condition because they were all simulated.
LOL, and yeah they are going to set up "real life" experiments and kill a few people to prove exactly the same thing ? Yeah right. It is common knowledge that if you have an operator of machinery, factories, heavy equipment (and yes cars) with his brain underutilised actually doing the task, their reactions when they need to respond will be slower...it's science, it's designed into factory workstations and everything. If you are on cruise control, you've travelled an extra some number of feet at CC speed before you touch the brake...if you aren't your foot is closer to the brake (on the accelerator), and the mere fact that you've lifted off to get to the brake means that you've saved some speed...surely you can grasp even THAT simple point. It's science, if you take away inputs from the operator, their mind will wander, and they become inatentive, and it takes longer to shake them back into the here and now. Tesla need to either take control entirely, and the responsibility that comes with it, but "beta" testing on public roads with a disclaimer that "you must be in a position to take control if needed" isn't providing that level of protection...clearly.
I travel long distance many times in the last 40+ years, from driving several thousands miles in 2 weeks without cruise control in the 70's to several hundreds(may be a thousand) miles with cruise control. After 3-4 hours without CC my right leg was so tired I could barely move from gas pedal to brake and back, my movement was much slower than normal when I was first seat in the car to start the journey. With CC my right leg was fresh as I was in the car the first minute, I could switch between pedals as fast as I was driving the car in the first minute. CC is absolutely essential for long trip, it is absolutely keep driver fresh so he/she can manage emergency situation much faster than without it after hours driving. No person can manage keeping his/her foot on gas pedal at precise position to keep constant speed after 8-10 hours without tired. Why don't you try driving few thousands miles in few days, 4-5 hours at once then short break, then another 4-5 hours with same speed within 1-2 MPH variation , then tell me how the leg you use to control gas pedal feel. I believe you drive on the left so you use left feet to control gas and brake pedal.
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
No person can manage keeping his/her foot on gas pedal at precise position to keep constant speed after 8-10 hours without tired. Why don't you try driving few thousands miles in few days, 4-5 hours at once then short break, then another 4-5 hours with same speed within 1-2 MPH variation , then tell me how the leg you use to control gas pedal feel. I believe you drive on the left so you use left feet to control gas and brake pedal.
My best was leaving home, and driving 1,200km, stopping twice to refuel, and the last half of it in a state where they have zero tolerance speeding, and will book you for 2km/h over the limit...without cruise control...which proves WHAT exactly ??? Oh, and at dusk, on country roads, we have kangaroos as well... Do you have an underlying disability that means that you can't drive properly ? I controlled the gas with my right foot if that adds any degree of difficulty.
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I believe you drive on the left so you use left feet to control gas and brake pedal.
 
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Yeah, sure.
Which part the part about audi owners standing on the wrong pedal ? (and swearing the car took off at full speed all on its own, and the brakes failed at the same time - then magically fixed themselves after the accident) - or the part about Teslas lane change working very well? It doesn't change lanes without autopilot on, and it uses all the sensors on the sides, front and back of the car to determine if it can safely make the change unlike most drivers that may give a glance in one mirror but rarely look over their shoulder. Like any driver aid it can be used correctly or incorrectly. For those that insist on doing it all on your own, I understand where you are coming from, and the majority of the time would do so myself, but the safety stats lean heavily toward assisted control. UD
 
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Originally Posted By: UncleDave
For those that insist on doing it all on your own, I understand where you are coming from, and the majority of the time would do so myself, but the safety stats lean heavily toward assisted control. UD
I agree where there's automatically applied brakes, and auto parking, and probably the lane change thing, where technology can apply an extra layer over a driver's poor performance. The problems occur when the driver has to step up and regain control, working out how he got into the predicament, and how to get out of it. Watching a DVD is an extreme version of what happens when you take a person's mind off the task. Daydreaming is the more natural state when you have less to do...being confronted with a truck across the path, I still believe that the car being "driven" would have a driver more attentive to what's up the road...ABS helps him to avoid safely. Trains have equipment that tests the driver's vigilance, and if the driver fails, the train stops...simple, been around for decades, and should be mandatory for any self driving feature
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
No person can manage keeping his/her foot on gas pedal at precise position to keep constant speed after 8-10 hours without tired. Why don't you try driving few thousands miles in few days, 4-5 hours at once then short break, then another 4-5 hours with same speed within 1-2 MPH variation , then tell me how the leg you use to control gas pedal feel. I believe you drive on the left so you use left feet to control gas and brake pedal.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
My best was leaving home, and driving 1,200km, stopping twice to refuel, and the last half of it in a state where they have zero tolerance speeding, and will book you for 2km/h over the limit...without cruise control...which proves WHAT exactly ??? Oh, and at dusk, on country roads, we have kangaroos as well... Do you have an underlying disability that means that you can't drive properly ? I controlled the gas with my right foot if that adds any degree of difficulty.
So you're a superman, who can easily control gas pedal at precise pressure to stay within 1-2 MPH variance after several hundreds miles. I couldn't do it even when I was much younger, my leg got very tired after 8-10 hour of driving without cruise control. I could barely stand up after few minutes rest, and had difficult time walking. I am very sure if you make a poll about usefulness of it on long trips of 200-300 miles or longer most will say it saves their life. Only you didn't think that CC is useful on long trip, because you read some study by some organization in France that CC may cause some distractions. I don't know if your steering is on the right your gas pedal is on the left or the right of the brake, and which foot you use to control those pedals with an auto transmission. My conclusion is all the studies you linked are all bunk, they concluded that based on 1 or 2 person behaviors in a lab is applicable to general public in real world environment.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
[quote=UncleDave] For those that insist on doing it all on your own, I understand where you are coming from, and the majority of the time would do so myself, but the safety stats lean heavily toward assisted control. UD
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I agree where there's automatically applied brakes, and auto parking, and probably the lane change thing, where technology can apply an extra layer over a driver's poor performance. The problems occur when the driver has to step up and regain control, working out how he got into the predicament, and how to get out of it. Watching a DVD is an extreme version of what happens when you take a person's mind off the task. Daydreaming is the more natural state when you have less to do...being confronted with a truck across the path, I still believe that the car being "driven" would have a driver more attentive to what's up the road...ABS helps him to avoid safely. Trains have equipment that tests the driver's vigilance, and if the driver fails, the train stops...simple, been around for decades, and should be mandatory for any self driving feature
There is no concrete evidence that the model S driver of the fatal accident watched a movie on portable DVD player. Police reported that the was a portable DVD player in the car after accident, they can't say it was playing a movie or not.
 
This is the opinions about Tesla autopilot of some supposed to be experts in automotive
Originally Posted By: usatoday.com
"No manufacturer should ever put a beta system on the road and make consumers the test drivers," said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety. Other automakers put millions of miles on major safety systems before they are deemed ready for prime time, he says, including many hours at their own test tracks. Ditlow said NHTSA's lack of a regulation on self-driving car features amounts to a "loophole" that Tesla exploited. "If you look at any car, there's a certification label that says 'this vehicle meets all applicable safety standards' and you can't sell it unless you certify that it does," Ditlow said. In this case, there were none of those standards in place.
There is no standard with "self-driving" or "autopilot" therefore by laws Tesla didn't violate anything. The government can't go after Tesla, but the death driver family can sue Tesla in civil court for grossly negligent.
Originally Posted By: usatoday.com
In the meantime, Tesla could do a better job of educating its owners about the Autopilot system — its use, limitations and any other safety issues — before letting owners use it, says Mark Rechtin, autos editor for Consumer Reports. "It's one of things where Tesla needs to do a thorough job of educating the customer," he said. Rechtin said he has tried Autopilot in the Tesla that Consumer Reports purchased. It's "limited technology," not yet a true self-driving system, and handy on long stretches of uncrowded highway or during routine driving, he said. "This is not a self-driving car. It's driving assist," Rechtin said. "And right there on the screen, it says 'beta.' "
General driving public don't understand what "Beta" means. Tesla clearly didn't educating its owners very well about its autopilot limitations. The last thing Tesla want is a class action lawsuit about autopilot. If this happens then they will be in real big trouble. http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars...phole/86726396/ PS The more I read about autopilot the more I hate and scared of it. If it is a standard feature on model 3 I would pay to disable it. It it is a paid option I will not pay a penny for it. Adaptive cruise control is a good option for long trips, emergency braking is another good one, but Tesla autopilot as of current release is a disaster.
 
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The tesla autopilot makes sure you alway keep hand on the wheel- if you remove it it starts beeping at you and if you dont it just simply starts slowing down an getting louder and louder. The truck drives statement - he says the driver looked like he was watching a movie - then the police find a DVD player. Kind of a smoking gun. I drive and tow long distances all the time cruise control is a godsend. UD
 
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
The Tesla autopilot makes sure you always keep hand on the wheel- if you remove it it starts beeping at you and if you don't it just simply starts slowing down an getting louder and louder.
Watch the video below made by the deceased Tesla driver, he didn't have any hand on steering wheel while the autopilot was engaged. In this video the autopilot was engaged in city street. Some videos on youtube showed autopilot runs the car in city streets, without driver hands on steering wheel. http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/06/autos/tesla-autopilot-accident/index.html
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
The truck drives statement - he says the driver looked like he was watching a movie - then the police find a DVD player. Kind of a smoking gun. I drive and tow long distances all the time cruise control is a godsend. UD
In the same video it showed the intersection of US highway and local street where accident occurred two months ago. When a truck driver is making a left turn how he can see a driver of a car on his right about 200-300 feet away watching a movie or doing anything ? Just imagine yourself as a driver of a tractor-trailer, when you are making a left turn from highway what are concentrating to do ? looking at the street you are turning into or looking at traffic several hundreds feet away to see which drivers of which cars are doing ? Did you see the police report of the accident ? Looking at the diagram of the accident scene and police estimated the speed of the Tesla at 65 MPH you can estimate the distance of the Tesla from the tractor-trailer when it started to make a left turn. Another thing, can you trust the guy who failed to yield right of way that caused fatal accident ?
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
The Tesla autopilot makes sure you always keep hand on the wheel- if you remove it it starts beeping at you and if you don't it just simply starts slowing down an getting louder and louder.
Watch the video below made by the deceased Tesla driver, he didn't have any hand on steering wheel while the autopilot was engaged. In this video the autopilot was engaged in city street. Some videos on youtube showed autopilot runs the car in city streets, without driver hands on steering wheel. http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/06/autos/tesla-autopilot-accident/index.html
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
The truck drives statement - he says the driver looked like he was watching a movie - then the police find a DVD player. Kind of a smoking gun. I drive and tow long distances all the time cruise control is a godsend. UD
In the same video it showed the intersection of US highway and local street where accident occurred two months ago. When a truck driver is making a left turn how he can see a driver of a car on his right about 200-300 feet away watching a movie or doing anything ? Just imagine yourself as a driver of a tractor-trailer, when you are making a left turn from highway what are concentrating to do ? looking at the street you are turning into or looking at traffic several hundreds feet away to see which drivers of which cars are doing ? Did you see the police report of the accident ? Looking at the diagram of the accident scene and police estimated the speed of the Tesla at 65 MPH you can estimate the distance of the Tesla from the tractor-trailer when it started to make a left turn. Another thing, can you trust the guy who failed to yield right of way that caused fatal accident ?
Go watch a couple of videos of cars with the 7.1 upgrade that came out in Jan. I had to initiate contact with the steering wheel nearly constantly or it would start beeping I could take it off a a tiny bit of time maybe a mile or 2 on a straight road- but it would start beeping at me right away. I don't trust anyone - however you can look down at the car while its going under you and see what the driver is looking at.
 
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