Why pay for UOA's or synthetic oils.
- Thread starter Avgas
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Even if he got stuck in rush hour 10% of the time that is only 120K of hard miles...
Originally Posted By: StevieC
The van isn't real world data... Real world would have been driving to/from work every day mostly in rush hour traffic with the odd commute on the highway.
Yep, a delivery van that makes its living working in the real world isn't real world data. Makes sense...
Quote:
These are punishing conditions not highway miles for 8,10,12 hours a day, day after day.
"Over the last 10 years, I've averaged 70-80 thousand miles a year. On top of all the road miles the truck has on it, I've put many hours of idling time on the engine too (for heat)."
Schell says that even with the mega-miles his van has accumulated, high-mileage loads are not a concern:
"I don't worry about taking the truck on longer trips. About a year ago, I took a load to California along with a number of other long-mileage runs. It runs so good, I'm not afraid to take it anywhere."
"I've had upwards of 3,300 pounds on it a number of times, but I don't go over that weight. The outside of the body looks fine, but the inside is kind of banged up and scratched up as you might expect."
How you compare a van with 13 years of real world, working miles to a controlled dyno test truly boggles the mind.
The van isn't real world data... Real world would have been driving to/from work every day mostly in rush hour traffic with the odd commute on the highway.
Yep, a delivery van that makes its living working in the real world isn't real world data. Makes sense...
Quote:
These are punishing conditions not highway miles for 8,10,12 hours a day, day after day.
"Over the last 10 years, I've averaged 70-80 thousand miles a year. On top of all the road miles the truck has on it, I've put many hours of idling time on the engine too (for heat)."
Schell says that even with the mega-miles his van has accumulated, high-mileage loads are not a concern:
"I don't worry about taking the truck on longer trips. About a year ago, I took a load to California along with a number of other long-mileage runs. It runs so good, I'm not afraid to take it anywhere."
"I've had upwards of 3,300 pounds on it a number of times, but I don't go over that weight. The outside of the body looks fine, but the inside is kind of banged up and scratched up as you might expect."
How you compare a van with 13 years of real world, working miles to a controlled dyno test truly boggles the mind.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: Avgas
Cool, is that a good lab?
Yeah they just don't test for Boron or Calcium unfortunately but the tests are only $16 with TBN/TAN included.
I checked and the prices around here were $17.50 (not including tax) if you bought a 10-pack. Where are you getting a better deal?!? Hmmm?
Have you ever done a test with Fluid Life?
Originally Posted By: Avgas
Cool, is that a good lab?
Yeah they just don't test for Boron or Calcium unfortunately but the tests are only $16 with TBN/TAN included.
I checked and the prices around here were $17.50 (not including tax) if you bought a 10-pack. Where are you getting a better deal?!? Hmmm?
Have you ever done a test with Fluid Life?
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Originally Posted By: Avgas
So he never got stuck in rush hour delivering? Smooth sailing open roads for 1,200,000 miles huh? I don't get how this compares to a freaking dyno run or where you are coming up with this.
Do the math. It's 100k/year in the rough. I didn't read the particulars to see what his week was like.
So he never got stuck in rush hour delivering? Smooth sailing open roads for 1,200,000 miles huh? I don't get how this compares to a freaking dyno run or where you are coming up with this.
Do the math. It's 100k/year in the rough. I didn't read the particulars to see what his week was like.
I work on honda a lot, and that is one dirty sohc. GL with your 500K + mission.
Originally Posted By: Avgas
...When modern engines will outlast the frame by 500k miles on regular conventional oil. Proven time and time again
I'm just trying to justify the money that people spend on this stuff, it's a little unbelievable. And I won't get into the OIC's, that's just being wreckless with the environment at a time when we need to save precious resources.
Europeans have been on insanely long intervals forever, and now finally in America does Mobil claim 15k on their top synthetic (too bad you can do it on conventional too).
So, you aren't racing at redline all day, and your engine will outlast the frame.
What's this all for?
Definitely not trying to flame anyone, just curious what the rationale is.
Pennzoil 5w30 conventional is good for 15k miles, by the way. Ran civic on that for hundreds of thousands of miles. UOA? PFFT.
For someone not trying to flame anyone, your post is pretty provocative. But point by point:
1. You really don't need to justify how I spend my money. Nor do I need to justify it to you.
2. I doubt my OCIs and the 3.6L sump they come out of have much of a relative impact on the environment. Particularly since the oil gets recycled.
3. Whether you can do 15k on conventional or not, isn't the same as 15k being optimal.
4. You assert that you ran your Civic on Pennzoil conventional for 15k OCIs for hundreds of thousands of miles. Then you later admit you did this once. There is something seriously wrong with your math.
Too many blanket statements. And you base this on your unique experience of doing this for 'hundreds of thousands of miles'. Then later admit you did it once. The platform you're shouting from is looking pretty shaky from here. I've seen sturdier ones built from cards.
-Spyder
...When modern engines will outlast the frame by 500k miles on regular conventional oil. Proven time and time again
I'm just trying to justify the money that people spend on this stuff, it's a little unbelievable. And I won't get into the OIC's, that's just being wreckless with the environment at a time when we need to save precious resources.
So, you aren't racing at redline all day, and your engine will outlast the frame.
What's this all for?
Definitely not trying to flame anyone, just curious what the rationale is.
Pennzoil 5w30 conventional is good for 15k miles, by the way. Ran civic on that for hundreds of thousands of miles. UOA? PFFT.
For someone not trying to flame anyone, your post is pretty provocative. But point by point:
1. You really don't need to justify how I spend my money. Nor do I need to justify it to you.
2. I doubt my OCIs and the 3.6L sump they come out of have much of a relative impact on the environment. Particularly since the oil gets recycled.
3. Whether you can do 15k on conventional or not, isn't the same as 15k being optimal.
4. You assert that you ran your Civic on Pennzoil conventional for 15k OCIs for hundreds of thousands of miles. Then you later admit you did this once. There is something seriously wrong with your math.
Too many blanket statements. And you base this on your unique experience of doing this for 'hundreds of thousands of miles'. Then later admit you did it once. The platform you're shouting from is looking pretty shaky from here. I've seen sturdier ones built from cards.
-Spyder
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There are many articles about the topic you ask of, and many other resources. If you feel that you cannot justify using synthetics or used oil analysis, then don't do it. Do you remember some of your previous post about haters and MMO...
"Funny, most of the skeptics and haters are people that haven't used it."`
...and
"Try to be open minded...."
The same could be applied to the topics of synthetics and used oil analysis.
by the way, Welcome to the forum!
"Funny, most of the skeptics and haters are people that haven't used it."`
...and
"Try to be open minded...."
The same could be applied to the topics of synthetics and used oil analysis.
by the way, Welcome to the forum!
avgas -- good morning. just asking, for the THIRD time, for examples of the "modern engines" that will outlast the frame by 500 k. miles. "modern engines" would mean several/most.you've posted twice since my SECOND request for these examples. i wonder why you're not responding ? TIA.
To be honest, all these million mile testimonials do not apply to probably 90% of drivers on the road and to me are nothing more than an entertainment value. The owners of these cars always say: " I did routine maintenance and changed oil every XXXX miles", well it's nice but what's missing from these testimonials is that they virtually lived in their car, the car had very few heat cycles, the engine spent most of it's time at the optimum operating conditions, at highway speed in top gear and at steady RPM.
All these conditions simply don't apply to average person, most have less than 20min commute, the engine is cold started at least twice a day and doesn't operate at optimum temperature for long periods of time. The transmission has to do hundreds of gear changes, the engine RPM and load varies all the time, etc. etc.
So while doing routine maintenance is important, it will never take you that far under these severe conditions.
OP's blanket statement of 15k miles on dino is as useful to an average driver as these million mile testimonials.
All these conditions simply don't apply to average person, most have less than 20min commute, the engine is cold started at least twice a day and doesn't operate at optimum temperature for long periods of time. The transmission has to do hundreds of gear changes, the engine RPM and load varies all the time, etc. etc.
So while doing routine maintenance is important, it will never take you that far under these severe conditions.
OP's blanket statement of 15k miles on dino is as useful to an average driver as these million mile testimonials.
Many people here want the best for their vehicles and synthetic oil is the best oil period. I too was a skeptic before but have seen the light. I love maintaining my own vehicles and using the best products I can for them. I can pretty much guarantee not many hondas would last past 4000000 miles with long drain intervals on dino. They would be burning oil faster than you could put it in.
Here is a good article on the Million Mile Saab. As he stated, maintenance is the key to longevity. Mobil 1 oil changes. I love the part where he states that Hondas, Acuras, Lexus cars are reliable but that is not the key to longevity.
Here is a good article on the Million Mile Saab. As he stated, maintenance is the key to longevity. Mobil 1 oil changes. I love the part where he states that Hondas, Acuras, Lexus cars are reliable but that is not the key to longevity.
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: StevieC
The van isn't real world data... Real world would have been driving to/from work every day mostly in rush hour traffic with the odd commute on the highway.
Yep, a delivery van that makes its living working in the real world isn't real world data. Makes sense...
Quote:
These are punishing conditions not highway miles for 8,10,12 hours a day, day after day.
"Over the last 10 years, I've averaged 70-80 thousand miles a year. On top of all the road miles the truck has on it, I've put many hours of idling time on the engine too (for heat)."
Schell says that even with the mega-miles his van has accumulated, high-mileage loads are not a concern:
"I don't worry about taking the truck on longer trips. About a year ago, I took a load to California along with a number of other long-mileage runs. It runs so good, I'm not afraid to take it anywhere."
"I've had upwards of 3,300 pounds on it a number of times, but I don't go over that weight. The outside of the body looks fine, but the inside is kind of banged up and scratched up as you might expect."
How you compare a van with 13 years of real world, working miles to a controlled dyno test truly boggles the mind.
Engines that are restarted from cold, driven 10-20 miles and then turned off and then this repeated 8 hours later will not last as long as this engine has where most of the miles were accumulated by keeping the engine at a stable temperature all day.
I thought you were smarter than this.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
The van isn't real world data... Real world would have been driving to/from work every day mostly in rush hour traffic with the odd commute on the highway.
Yep, a delivery van that makes its living working in the real world isn't real world data. Makes sense...
Quote:
These are punishing conditions not highway miles for 8,10,12 hours a day, day after day.
"Over the last 10 years, I've averaged 70-80 thousand miles a year. On top of all the road miles the truck has on it, I've put many hours of idling time on the engine too (for heat)."
Schell says that even with the mega-miles his van has accumulated, high-mileage loads are not a concern:
"I don't worry about taking the truck on longer trips. About a year ago, I took a load to California along with a number of other long-mileage runs. It runs so good, I'm not afraid to take it anywhere."
"I've had upwards of 3,300 pounds on it a number of times, but I don't go over that weight. The outside of the body looks fine, but the inside is kind of banged up and scratched up as you might expect."
How you compare a van with 13 years of real world, working miles to a controlled dyno test truly boggles the mind.
Engines that are restarted from cold, driven 10-20 miles and then turned off and then this repeated 8 hours later will not last as long as this engine has where most of the miles were accumulated by keeping the engine at a stable temperature all day.
I thought you were smarter than this.
Originally Posted By: Avgas
Pennzoil 5w30 conventional is good for 15k miles, by the way. Ran civic on that for hundreds of thousands of miles.
Originally Posted By: Avgas
I didn't run 15k every time, that was longest, worst case scenario a few times but average was probably 10k.
So it’s really 10K, not 15K. That’s a significant difference. The initial claim was overstated 50%.
Originally Posted By: Avgas
I put something called "Mystery Oil" in my crankcase. Maybe we all are a little off.
Originally Posted By: Avgas
I didn't feel that the MMO running costs of $0.75 a fillup were relevant to this thread.
Originally Posted By: Avgas
And a gallon of the stuff is cheap therapy compared to running synthetic oil or paying for used oil analysis.
You were critical of others spending money on premium oils and used oil analysis, while you probably spent more dosing your crankcase and fuel with MMO. You’re cheap therapy isn’t any cheaper than their used oil analysis or use of syn.
Originally Posted By: Avgas
There are million mile Civics out there with no engine work done and a new gen Toyota Yaris with 400k on the Yarisworld forums, they are very common just look around.
How many of those million mile Civics did it with 15K on dino? I haven’t seen any million mile Civics first hand even though I don’t doubt they exist. However, I have actually seen several Civics blowing blue smoke and making disturbingly loud clatter at idle. I guess they forgot to add the MMO.
Originally Posted By: From the million mile van website
I use 10W-40 motor oil and change it every 10,000 to 20,000 miles. The longest I’ve went between oil changes is 55,000 miles. It uses a quart of oil or more every tank of gas. I wait for the oil to turn black before changing it. Lucas Oil seems to slow the burning down.
Using 40 wt. and still has 1 qt. or more consumption every tank of gas. The million mile van owner has simply found ways to keeping his worn out fogger in service. I wonder how long ago it wore out?
Avgas, you would be well advised to clean up your act a little. BTW, how many miles are on your Civic, and how many were on it when you purchased it?
Pennzoil 5w30 conventional is good for 15k miles, by the way. Ran civic on that for hundreds of thousands of miles.
Originally Posted By: Avgas
I didn't run 15k every time, that was longest, worst case scenario a few times but average was probably 10k.
So it’s really 10K, not 15K. That’s a significant difference. The initial claim was overstated 50%.
Originally Posted By: Avgas
I put something called "Mystery Oil" in my crankcase. Maybe we all are a little off.
Originally Posted By: Avgas
I didn't feel that the MMO running costs of $0.75 a fillup were relevant to this thread.
Originally Posted By: Avgas
And a gallon of the stuff is cheap therapy compared to running synthetic oil or paying for used oil analysis.
You were critical of others spending money on premium oils and used oil analysis, while you probably spent more dosing your crankcase and fuel with MMO. You’re cheap therapy isn’t any cheaper than their used oil analysis or use of syn.
Originally Posted By: Avgas
There are million mile Civics out there with no engine work done and a new gen Toyota Yaris with 400k on the Yarisworld forums, they are very common just look around.
How many of those million mile Civics did it with 15K on dino? I haven’t seen any million mile Civics first hand even though I don’t doubt they exist. However, I have actually seen several Civics blowing blue smoke and making disturbingly loud clatter at idle. I guess they forgot to add the MMO.
Originally Posted By: From the million mile van website
I use 10W-40 motor oil and change it every 10,000 to 20,000 miles. The longest I’ve went between oil changes is 55,000 miles. It uses a quart of oil or more every tank of gas. I wait for the oil to turn black before changing it. Lucas Oil seems to slow the burning down.
Using 40 wt. and still has 1 qt. or more consumption every tank of gas. The million mile van owner has simply found ways to keeping his worn out fogger in service. I wonder how long ago it wore out?
Avgas, you would be well advised to clean up your act a little. BTW, how many miles are on your Civic, and how many were on it when you purchased it?
I've concluded that I don't need a used oil analysis. I run a good synthetic oil,filter,oci and keep up with the major maintainence. You get a good idea how hard your engine is on oil by looking a the Uoa'a on this site for your car and oil. I spend my "used oil analysis money" on more frequent Drain and Fills on my AT fluid. I think most of us are going to experience AT problems before we experience Engine problems. I buy my cars new and drive them forever. 108k and runs like new. I realize this may be a different conclusion for those buying used cars.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Engines that are restarted from cold, driven 10-20 miles and then turned off and then this repeated 8 hours later will not last as long as this engine has where most of the miles were accumulated by keeping the engine at a stable temperature all day.
indeed...
So comparing a car that spent a couple years on a dyno with the only heat cycles being oil changes every 15,000 miles (or whatever M1 did) is comparable to 13+ years of on the road, working, loaded mileage how exactly?
You made the statement, now explain it.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
This is no better than M1's test with the Mercedes on the Dyno that ran 1,000,000 miles. IMO.
The heat cycle argument doesn't cut it, as it's pretty clear the two scenarios aren't even remotely comparable.
Engines that are restarted from cold, driven 10-20 miles and then turned off and then this repeated 8 hours later will not last as long as this engine has where most of the miles were accumulated by keeping the engine at a stable temperature all day.
So comparing a car that spent a couple years on a dyno with the only heat cycles being oil changes every 15,000 miles (or whatever M1 did) is comparable to 13+ years of on the road, working, loaded mileage how exactly?
You made the statement, now explain it.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
This is no better than M1's test with the Mercedes on the Dyno that ran 1,000,000 miles. IMO.
The heat cycle argument doesn't cut it, as it's pretty clear the two scenarios aren't even remotely comparable.
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
For someone not trying to flame anyone, your post is pretty provocative.
It's intentional. The guy has been here three days and is already a condescending know it all.
They have a word that refers to people like this on message boards. Troll. Stop feeding it people.
For someone not trying to flame anyone, your post is pretty provocative.
It's intentional. The guy has been here three days and is already a condescending know it all.
They have a word that refers to people like this on message boards. Troll. Stop feeding it people.
I am not trolling. I'm the inverse of most here in that I want to see how far things can be pushed instead of following the norm. (re: predictable and boring) But I still like the oil thing. That said, I did make this thread on a shaky foundation to see what responses and coversation would ensue. But all in all, it was factual.
For me, it's like my car's are my babies. They are my kids, and I want the best for them. I dress them in fancy clothes even though I could buy super cheap shoes and clothes from second hand stores (nothing wrong with this btw). It's a matter of pride. I like to baby them and I get a sense they love me more for it, as silly as that sounds. Yes, it's just a car and not a living creature... but they are a part of our family and more importantly, they take the family all around town. So I spend a bit extra on them. Big deal.
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Originally Posted By: Avgas
I'm the inverse of most here in that I want to see how far things can be pushed instead of following the norm. (re: predictable and boring).
Making statements like that are the very definition of trolling.
-Spyder
I'm the inverse of most here in that I want to see how far things can be pushed instead of following the norm. (re: predictable and boring).
Making statements like that are the very definition of trolling.
-Spyder
Originally Posted By: biodiesel
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
For someone not trying to flame anyone, your post is pretty provocative.
It's intentional. The guy has been here three days and is already a condescending know it all.
They have a word that refers to people like this on message boards. Troll. Stop feeding it people.
Just because he has only been here a few days registered doesn't mean he could have been lurking without posting for a long while before this... Everyone here needs to untie their unmentionables because clearly they are in a knot.
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
For someone not trying to flame anyone, your post is pretty provocative.
It's intentional. The guy has been here three days and is already a condescending know it all.
They have a word that refers to people like this on message boards. Troll. Stop feeding it people.
Just because he has only been here a few days registered doesn't mean he could have been lurking without posting for a long while before this... Everyone here needs to untie their unmentionables because clearly they are in a knot.
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