Sitting on death row awaiting Execution...?

[CivicFan]

87% of the judges in the US are elected: http://hlr.rubystudio.com/media/pdf/capertonintro09.pdf

More analysis can be found at Harvard Law:
http://harvardlawreview.org/issues/123/november09/Foreword_6327.php

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Win

In my state, the lead lawyer in a capital case has to have a certification that they are death qualified. It's hard to get and few have it.

I'm admitted to practice at the U.S. Supreme Court, but I can't do a capital case.

Good information. Thank you.

I don't feel that the verdicts are 'always' just. But neither do I think that more than a tiny percentage of criminals are wrongly convicted. The law puts the burdon of proof on the State and the standard is 'beyond reasonable doubt' and in addition you have 10 to 12 jurrors. You get a lawyer and appeal (s)

I'll take the odds in favor of a "Not" guilty or "Guilty" verdict being either correct or favoring the "Defendant". If I go in for the most serious hospital operation I'll take those ods any day of the week. Those that criticize the system would be wise to do likewise.

 

[Shannow]

Al, if it was your wife (or 5yo daughter) sitting on death row, I'm sure that you'd favour life imprisonment rather than the death penalty, rather than declaring it statistically insignificant.

One thing that I find really funny in this thread is that those who in general find Govt, their agents, and the courts 100% wrong, 100% of the time trust them to select which citizens get to be put to death.

 

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted By: Al
I don't feel that the verdicts are 'always' just. But neither do I think that more than a tiny percentage of criminals are wrongly convicted. The law puts the burdon of proof on the State and the standard is 'beyond reasonable doubt' and in addition you have 10 to 12 jurrors. You get a lawyer and appeal (s)


You see, CivicFan, I told you no one would believe you unless they have "been there - done that".

Al, I spent no time verifying this and you know how "studies" can be......

68 Percent Error Rate Found in Death Case Study
http://truthinjustice.org/68percent.htm

When the 68 percent overall error rate is broken down into its state and federal components, the study, which covers the period from 1973 to 1995, reports:

• Of 599 death sentences finally reviewed in their first federal habeas corpus petitions, federal courts overturned 40 percent, or 237, because of serious error.

• Of the 4,578 death sentences finally reviewed by state high courts on direct appeal, 41 percent, or 1,885, were thrown out because of serious error. When that rate is combined with sentences overturned at the next stage -- state post-conviction proceedings -- state courts found serious error in 47 percent of death sentences.

• Of 26 states that had at least one case move through the three stages of state and federal review, 24 had overall error rates of 52 percent or more.

 

[65cuda]

Al is more interested in getting a sentence carried out than he is in whether or not it is right. A small percentange error in his eyes is no big deal, it is an acceptable error. Of course if it was Al he might take a different outlook on it then if he was the one that was being accused and sentenced and was innocent. Doubt if he would believe it was an acceptable error then.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: 65cuda
Al is more interested in getting a sentence carried out than he is in whether or not it is right. A small percentange error in his eyes is no big deal, it is an acceptable error. Of course if it was Al he might take a different outlook on it then if he was the one that was being accused and sentenced and was innocent. Doubt if he would believe it was an acceptable error then.

You have no clue what you are talking about. But that's what makes forums um...interesting.

I don't understand why you are sitting back responding in a meaningless thread when there are 10's of thousands of wrongly accused criminals in jail. You should be out there helping.

 

[65cuda]

Evidently you are the one that is clueless and the same could be said then about responding in a meaningless thread. However I noticed that you never actually respond to the what if it was you on death row and you were innocent. Would that small chance of error be acceptable to you then?

 

[Brons2]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: 65cuda
Isn't Texas the leader in executing people? Criminals have never seemed to be dissuaded by the threat of executing even in the olds days.

12 executions out of 1500 murders lolz. Would you be afraid of 8 out of 10,000?


Texas has had way more than 12 executions. We've executed hundreds.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Brons2
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: 65cuda
Isn't Texas the leader in executing people? Criminals have never seemed to be dissuaded by the threat of executing even in the olds days.

12 executions out of 1500 murders lolz. Would you be afraid of 8 out of 10,000?


Texas has had way more than 12 executions. We've executed hundreds.

That is for 2011

 

[Al]

I noticed that you never actually respond to the what if it was you on death row and you were innocent. Would that small chance of error be acceptable to you then? [/quote]
Obviously you missed my response on a previous post. Not surprising though. I doubt you read or comprehended much of what I have said.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
.....

Al, I spent no time verifying this and you know how "studies" can be......

68 Percent Error Rate Found in Death Case Study
http://truthinjustice.org/68percent.htm


It's really just the nature of the beast that these cases go up and down the state courts and in and out and up and down in the federal courts. Multiple retrials, which in almost all cases results in multiple convictions, or a guilty plea that gets a formerly condemned person a life sentence, are not uncommon.

The stakes are obviously as high as it gets, no one wants to let a not guilty person slip through or a condemnee get executed without having every argument and reason to overturn the sentence heard, and the defense lawyers that work these cases are very good and very dogged and persistent at constantly exploring new angles and grounds for judicial relief. Indeed, part of the defense strategy in these cases is just to wear the other side down.

Sometimes they hit paydirt and the Supreme Court makes a new ruling that affords some condemnees some new relief that was previously unavailable.

Even in cases where someone says I'm guilty and I want to be executed, they get intensely litigated, even against the will of the condemned. We've had one of those going in our local court for a few years now. It's an ugly case.

The flip side is that sometimes cops and prosecutors botch cases and killers walk free. We had a guy tried for capital murder of a college student and he was acquitted by a jury. Then they decided they had tried the wrong guy, and tried another guy to three mistrials for the same murder before giving up. While not a legal impossibility, it is just a practical impossibility to try multiple defendants for the same murder. That girl's killer is still out there.

The system is not perfect. It's full of people.

 

[65cuda]

Al if you mean this: I'll take the odds in favor of a "Not" guilty or "Guilty" verdict being either correct or favoring the "Defendant". If I go in for the most serious hospital operation I'll take those ods any day of the week. Those that criticize the system would be wise to do likewise. Then yes I read that, but there is a big difference between deciding on your chances for a operation and the death penalty. The operation you have a choice of whether you want to proceed with it or not or seek althernatives. The death penalty you are at the mercy of a jury, defense and prosecution lawyer and have no choice. Now if you are good with getting a death sentence and having it carried out quickly when you are innocent then you are a candidate for the darwin award.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: 65cuda
.... The death penalty you are at the mercy of a jury, defense and prosecution lawyer and have no choice. ....


Not necessarily. Some guys are offered a plea to life, and choose to roll the dice and get condemned.

It's not easy to generalize, a lot of cases are unique, thank goodness. You don't want a lot of people that put kids in ovens, for example. We had one of those a few years ago.

Wasn't J. Dahmer a lifer? Sometimes there is nothing the system can do to prevent capital punishment.

 

[65cuda]

Even at that copping a plea and hoping for the best? Still not a good option if you are the innocent one. We have a couple cases here where the one admitted to his long history of murders and told the court of how he did them. Another was a robbery that they raped the women and took the men and women out into a field to execute them. Luckily one survived. While it is tempting to say execute them I tend to go with the idea that it is too easy of an out for them. I still prefer the idea of a small cell with no human contact as much as possible for the rest of their lives. Sort of like a living coffin. I heard on Fox that the underware bomber will have something like that for his life sentence. If it is true then all the better.

 

[PZR2874]

Off with their heads!!

Best said by the Queen of Hearts

http://www.txexecutions.org/stats.asp

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/FactSheet.pdf

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Al, if it was your wife (or 5yo daughter) sitting on death row, I'm sure that you'd favour life imprisonment rather than the death penalty, rather than declaring it statistically insignificant.

One thing that I find really funny in this thread is that those who in general find Govt, their agents, and the courts 100% wrong, 100% of the time trust them to select which citizens get to be put to death.


If that wifey or daughter KILLED someone and got the death sentence that was proven 99.9% beyond any doubt, the needle is cheaper on our wallets vs feeding them in prison for the next 50-60 years. That's my point.

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Originally Posted By: Al
I don't feel that the verdicts are 'always' just. But neither do I think that more than a tiny percentage of criminals are wrongly convicted. The law puts the burdon of proof on the State and the standard is 'beyond reasonable doubt' and in addition you have 10 to 12 jurrors. You get a lawyer and appeal (s)


You see, CivicFan, I told you no one would believe you unless they have "been there - done that".

Al, I spent no time verifying this and you know how "studies" can be......

68 Percent Error Rate Found in Death Case Study
http://truthinjustice.org/68percent.htm

When the 68 percent overall error rate is broken down into its state and federal components, the study, which covers the period from 1973 to 1995, reports:

• Of 599 death sentences finally reviewed in their first federal habeas corpus petitions, federal courts overturned 40 percent, or 237, because of serious error.

• Of the 4,578 death sentences finally reviewed by state high courts on direct appeal, 41 percent, or 1,885, were thrown out because of serious error. When that rate is combined with sentences overturned at the next stage -- state post-conviction proceedings -- state courts found serious error in 47 percent of death sentences.

• Of 26 states that had at least one case move through the three stages of state and federal review, 24 had overall error rates of 52 percent or more.


If this info is even remotely accurate, then it's quite obvious that our court system is severely flawed. If people are getting sentenced to death or life but are later found to be innocent, or wrongly accused, both the lawyers and the judges need to be fired because they clearly SUCK at their jobs.

If every case that was overturned later down the road originally got the "proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" seal of approval, then people seriously suck at their jobs and the judges seem to enjoy swinging their hammers around more then anything

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: Artem
If this info is even remotely accurate, then it's quite obvious that our court system is severely flawed. If people are getting sentenced to death or life but are later found to be innocent, or wrongly accused, both the lawyers and the judges need to be fired because they clearly SUCK at their jobs.


Read John Grisham's "The Innocent Man", but only if you've got some faith in authority and humanity to spare, because I guarantee you'll lose some.

 

[wtd]

Originally Posted By: rpn453
Originally Posted By: Artem
If this info is even remotely accurate, then it's quite obvious that our court system is severely flawed. If people are getting sentenced to death or life but are later found to be innocent, or wrongly accused, both the lawyers and the judges need to be fired because they clearly SUCK at their jobs.


Read John Grisham's "The Innocent Man", but only if you've got some faith in authority and humanity to spare, because I guarantee you'll lose some.


I actually work with the nephew of the guy that the book "The innocent Man" is about.

As far as the death penelty goes, I'm for it for a few reasons. In 2006 one of my sisters was murdered by her boyfriend. They let the guy cop to life in prison without parole instead of going for the death penelty. After reading her autopsy reports and reading what he did to her, you are [censored] right I would love to put him to death for what he did.

A woman I work with had her mother murdered when she was around 8 years old. He ended up on death row and was finally executed after many years.

Another reason is that I have worked in a prison for 20+ years as a Correctional Officer and get to read what some of these guys are in for. It would make you sick.

Most of you guys here have no clue what prison is really like unless you have worked in one or have been incarcerated in one. They are not the [censored] holes everyone imagines. Inmates have a lot of rights and get better health care than you do.

A lot of you guys want to lock up some of these guys for the rest of their lives but who do you think has to pay for that? Where do you think they are going to be housed? The prisons are overcrowed as it is and it takes big money to build, staff, and operate a new prison or any prison for that matter. In the system I work in, we are bringing in more inmates every year than are getting released.

Even if the death penelty does not deter someone from committing a violent crime, it gets people out of the society that are nothing but a drain on it.

I'm sure that some innocent people have been put to death but no system is perfect. Innocent people die every day in car accidents, at the hands of doctors and any other way people accidently die. There are no guarantee's in life. Yes it would suck to sit on death row if you were innocent but it would also suck to be in that car innocently driving along when someone in the other lane comes over and hits you head on and kills you.

And finally, the reason most people sit on death row for years is because of appeals, appeals, appeals. The court system is bogged down and every appeal takes years.

If one of these guys did something to you or one of your family members, you might feel different about this subject.

For some of you who don't believe in the death penelty, go to Texas's death row website or Missouri's where I live and read about what these guys are on death row for. If some of the stuff you read doesn't make your blood boil, I don't know what would.

Wayne

 

[65cuda]

I can understand your feelings about it but the problem is still the part about innocent people being executed. Your wesite idea only tells what they were convicted of. It still doesn't mean that they all were actually guilty. Yes people people die all the time, but on the other hand these cases are one's that you have a choice to execute or not. Might want to look at the cost to keep a person on death row and the appeals also. Nobody is saying that they should have a fine living, but again you would almost certainly feel different about it if you were innocent, but convicted of a crime you didn't commit and then sentenced to death. The feelings do go both ways.

 

[wtd]

I understand that feelings go both way and like I already stated, I would not want to be one of the innocent ones on death row but even if that happened to me tomorrow, I would still feel the way I do about the death penelty because of my first hand experience with my sister and where I have worked for the past 20+ years. Life is unfair and bad things sometimes happen to good people so if I was unjustly executed because I ended up on death row and I was innocent, so be it.


The majority of people on death row are guilty. Most of them have admitted guilt. Most of them have an extensive criminal history before they get to the death row point. So are you saying the ones that have admitted guilt or the ones that the evidence is overwelming, should not be put to death.?

Google search the Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom murders and the Connecticut home invasion murders and tell me the people responsible don't deserve the death penelty. This is just a couple of examples. Go watch the online video's of the parents of the first two people I mentioned and the husband of the home invasion murders and see the hurt and heartbreak that the actions of these people caused.

The bottom line in my opinion is that some people need to pay the ultimate price for the actions they do.

The cost to keep someone on death row is no different than it is to keep them in any other prison setting. Yes the appeals process cost money but you are still spending a lot of money on the care of these people.

At my prison, we have had many inmates rack up over a million dollars each in health care costs. Remember, inmates don't have health insurance and when they go to the local hospitals, the tax payers pay the full cost for anything done plus you are paying staff extra money to watch them while they are there.

Obviously you and I see this subject in a differnt light. You seem to be only focusing on the ones that might be innocent instead of the ones that are definetly guilty.

Wayne