Sitting on death row awaiting Execution...?

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Originally Posted By: Al
Its a fact of life that some folks feel that the court system is not capable of being fair. Not withstanding there are 12 jurors who have to unanimously agree to guiltily "beyond reasonable doubt". And then we have endless appeals and opportunities for mistrials based on protocol.

So when one doesn't trust the "system": Jurors, judge, protocol, appeals, etc. Its evident that they could never agree a person guilty. Arguing is just a waste of air.


Al, you continually state that ANYTHING done by Government or their agencies is ALWAYS wrong, yet you here place implicit trust in Police and prosecutors (and the courts).

So much so that you'd willingly, and without complaint accept family being taken off by them and executed because there's less chance of that than a road accident.

Originally Posted By: Al
Thank goodness O.J was found "not Guilty" That is the dysfunctional system that they want.


So do you trust the system or not ?
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow

Al, you continually state that ANYTHING done by Government or their agencies is ALWAYS wrong, yet you here place implicit trust in Police and prosecutors (and the courts).
Actually I don't like the legal system bc it is to heavily weighted in favor of the criminal. And also 12 citizens have final say. As WIN pointed out the preponderance of the courts efforts are in preserving the rights of the accused.

Quote:

So much so that you'd willingly, and without complaint accept family being taken off by them and executed because there's less chance of that than a road accident.

These are your words and views, not mine

Originally Posted By: Al
Thank goodness O.J was found "not Guilty" That is the dysfunctional system that they want.


Quote:
So do you trust the system or not ?


I trust the system to allow the guilty too many times to get off and go out in society and kill/rob/commit crime again and again.
 
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Some of you are pretty deluded about how prisons are and making inmates pay back to society. All prisons are, are places where inmates learn to be better criminals. First of all there is a huge trust issue when dealing with inmates. They have already proven in many ways that they cannot be trusted. No way are they going to have access to computers in any other fashion other than using them as a word processor.

Some of you mention teaching them skills so they can get jobs when they get out. Guess what, most people won't hire them no matter what type of skill they have. Trust issue again. Are you going to hire a murderer? Are you going to hire someone who was incarcerated for stealing.? Are you going to hire a former felon period? I doubt most of you would.

Most of these guys don't want to work and is the reason they got into the life of crime in the first place. They took the easy way out. I've met many inmates over the years who have told me they have never held a real job on the street.

Some of you mention lets just put them in solitary confinement and lock away the key forever. Guess what, there are laws and policies that prevent that from happening. The bleeding hearts out there have made sure of that.

There are plenty of violent inmates that are not on death row. We have plenty of them running around in our general population and guess what, most of them will one day be back out on the street waiting to prey on someone else.

Most people don't think about crime unless it personally affects them and I don't understand the mindset of people that think that these guys who willfully murder other people should just be locked up forever instead of paying with their life. I guess I believe in an eye for an eye.

Wayne
 
Originally Posted By: wtd
Some of you are pretty deluded about how prisons are and making inmates pay back to society. All prisons are, are places where inmates learn to be better criminals. First of all there is a huge trust issue when dealing with inmates. They have already proven in many ways that they cannot be trusted. No way are they going to have access to computers in any other fashion other than using them as a word processor.

Some of you mention teaching them skills so they can get jobs when they get out. Guess what, most people won't hire them no matter what type of skill they have. Trust issue again. Are you going to hire a murderer? Are you going to hire someone who was incarcerated for stealing.? Are you going to hire a former felon period? I doubt most of you would.

Most of these guys don't want to work and is the reason they got into the life of crime in the first place. They took the easy way out. I've met many inmates over the years who have told me they have never held a real job on the street.

Some of you mention lets just put them in solitary confinement and lock away the key forever. Guess what, there are laws and policies that prevent that from happening. The bleeding hearts out there have made sure of that.

There are plenty of violent inmates that are not on death row. We have plenty of them running around in our general population and guess what, most of them will one day be back out on the street waiting to prey on someone else.

Most people don't think about crime unless it personally affects them and I don't understand the mindset of people that think that these guys who willfully murder other people should just be locked up forever instead of paying with their life. I guess I believe in an eye for an eye.

Wayne


D.O.C. or F.B.O.P. ?
 
Originally Posted By: buickman50401
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: buickman50401

So in these days of DNA evidence and cameras everywhere if we catch a killer and find forensic evidence that clearly demonstrates he is guilty, let him have one appeal to re-examine the forensics to make sure they are solid and if so then execute him.


100% agree. If solid DNA evidence have convicted a serious crime, there should not be any doubt death penalty should be used.


But, but, but... what IF there was an issue in processing the DNA. What if it was really Santa Clause with the Easter Bunny as his accomplice and this was all a big mistake by the lab because the DNA was contaminated by dust from the Tooth Fairy's wings. What if man... what if?

As far as cuda goes remember its beyond a reasonable doubt with the opportunity to appeal. Its not beyond a shadow of any doubt no matter how absurd. Cuda perhaps we should just let all criminals go since there will always be some doubt. Your efforts to play the can't be 100% certain card are pathetic and clearly a way to avoid the underlying question of shoul we execute?

You see a person shot right in front of you in cold blood and the perp is arrested on scene. Would that be enough evidence for you or perhaps your eyes are playing tricks or you hallucinated the entire thing?

Originally Posted By: Al
Well 15,000 murders per year. I wonder who killed them, considering that all the people captured and being tried for these murders are innocent.


Of course they're all innocent. Just ask any inmate convicted of any crime. None of them did it.

My theory is that its Sasquatch and the Chupacabra working in cahoots comitting all of these murders and that we have far too many innocents locked up in prison that we should set them all free since we're not omniscient... including the kiddie diddlers.


you've got a wild imagination. I LOL'd.
 
Originally Posted By: wtd
*snip*
I don't understand the mindset of people that think that these guys who willfully murder other people should just be locked up forever instead of paying with their life. I guess I believe in an eye for an eye.


Because I do not believe that killing someone who killed someone proves that killing is wrong.

Nor do I believe the state or the government has or should have the right to end life.
 
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Originally Posted By: Artem


you've got a wild imagination. I LOL'd.

Thanks I try. In all fairness I can't take full credit. The leprechaun that lives in my underwear drawer has been helping me polish my skills. That is when the dog isn't busy interrupting him with his endless complaints about his irritable bowel syndrome and the cat isn't squaking on and on about her fibromyalgia.

Originally Posted By: Al
Actually I don't like the legal system bc it is to heavily weighted in favor of the criminal. And also 12 citizens have final say. As WIN pointed out the preponderance of the courts efforts are in preserving the rights of the accused.

I trust the system to allow the guilty too many times to get off and go out in society and kill/rob/commit crime again and again.


Same here. Wayne can speak to this as well though he might not have the same perspective/experience working for the FBOP vs the the state DOC level where I worked.

To end up in prison you generally have to be a multi time loser having a laundry list of misdemeanor and low level felony crimes on your rap sheet before you actually do any hard time in the state pen... though you may have done a few short (6mo or less) stints in county.

Its probation probation probation until finally the courts "put their foot down" if you will.

Wayne is just jaded though. He has been in the business too long to be objective... I am 100% kidding Wayne. You have been around it long enough to have a thorough understanding of the reality of prisons and criminal mentality.



Shifting gears for a bit, I am curious as to cuda and shannow's view on what we should do with pedophiles. All current respected research has concluded that they cannot be cured. Some have gone so far as to suggest that their attraction to children is very similar to sexual orientation... you can't "convert" a [censored] to hetero and vice versa.

Regardless of the underlying pschological pathology arguements, the only agreed on treatment is cognitive behavioral therapy. This doesn't cure them of their sexual desire for children. It attempts to teach them to control their impulse to act on their desires. The "success" rate is only about 30% and even that is questionable.

So here we have a population of completely incorrigable offenders who will reoffend when released. Also keep in mind that many pedos only get popped for one specific incident/victim but that they have often committed other acts in the past with other victims that never see the light of day.

Also so long as we are on the topic of the judicial system, what do we do with repeat offenders? How many times do we let them back out to prove again that they are incapable of living among the rest of us without continually victimizing others? 3 strikes type law and just warehouse them?

I prefer a 3 strikes you're dead policy. If you commit mutiple felonies on multiple occasions you have demonstrated you are incapable of operating independently in society.
 
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: Shannow

So much so that you'd willingly, and without complaint accept family being taken off by them and executed because there's less chance of that than a road accident.

These are your words and views, not mine


So when you equated innocents killed incorrectly as being similar to accepting the road toll, it was only for other people's families ?
 
Originally Posted By: buickman50401

Shifting gears for a bit, I am curious as to cuda and shannow's view on what we should do with pedophiles.


You just can't help stating other people's views, and building strawmen to fight with can you ?

If you bothered to read any of my posts, as ooposed to replying to the ideas that you tell me that I have, I'm not one for lenience and letting guilty parties wander around...that's for the corrupt cops and their little circle of handshakers to do.

When I see the news articles about the "father" who threw his 4yo daughter off a bridge, the one in QLD the other day who did same to his toddler son, the scum children who killed Jamie Bulger, my blood absolutely boils, and I wish them to receive the same treatment 1000 times over.

But I still do not believe that society has the right to take a life, as once it's decided for one crime/group of crimes,then there's no clear delineation...as evidenced by your arguments re rape and murder (particularly of people close to people who disagree with you), and ending with your own three strikes policy (where one, two, or even all three could have been set up by the easter bunny, or a corrupt official who wants to build a Walmart on your front deck)...through to you didn't salute elPresidente as he drove past...

The black and white between "Society doesn't take a life", and "and Eye for an eye" is vastly wider than "an eye for an eye", and "Kill them all and let God sort them out".

Once in that second zone, as per your post, it's varying shades of gray...

I agree with you, and I don't beleive that pedos can be rehabed...do you advocate putting all boys to death before puberty ?

Well if not all,how many?

How many innocents is it OK to mistakenly kill to ensure that "justice" is done ?
 
This is just a subject that people will have widely different views. Most people don't have the experience with this segment of society to realize what they are about.

Try working around these people for years listening to them whine about how mistreated they are or how they deserve this or that. Listen to them call you names or trying to assault you. Most of these people are not your friendly neighbor next door.

Listen to them whine that the food is not good enough even though they are getting three free meals a day. Watch them get health care and procedures done that most people on the street cannot afford.

I will give you an example of the [censored] I put up with. Last week one of our segregation inmates had his cell searched and had an extra blanket he had taken away. Next thing you know he floods the range, starts kicking on his door and covers his window. He disrupts the unit for the next couple of hours while we are cleaning up water. All of this over a blanket. This is just one example of many of this kind of petty [censored] that these guys do.

I guess some of you can't understand what you don't know.

Wayne
 
Originally Posted By: HollowEyes
Originally Posted By: wtd
*snip*
I don't understand the mindset of people that think that these guys who willfully murder other people should just be locked up forever instead of paying with their life. I guess I believe in an eye for an eye.


Because I do not believe that killing someone who killed someone proves that killing is wrong.

Nor do I believe the state or the government has or should have the right to end life.



I agree. Let the victim's next of kin decide what should happen.

If they're forgiving or have reasonable doubt as many here have, then let them walk free.
If they believe justice is better served executing the individual, let them do it at a reasonable time/place and within reasonable means.
Problem solved.
 
Another Correctional Officer here 25+ years experience.

Here in Georgia we have a guy who commited murder in a court room,on camera.No chance of misidentification.He got a trial that almost bankrupted the public defender system.He should have been executed within days .

But that is an extreme example.In most death cases it is the culmination of an individuals career path that escalated from petty crimes to violence.It is pretty much deserved by that point.

For the crowd that yells life without parole,put them in solitary.That is not allowed.Solitary is used in tightly governed circumstances and it is not actually solitary it is a group of 1 and 2 man cells away from the general population.Many prisons have open dorms,not cells.

In the early 70's a group of escaped inmates raped and killed most of a family in south Georgia,They bragged about what they had done after being arrested.After they were caught a lynch mob formed and the sheriff there talked the mob into leaving saying "these boys are going to fry without a doubt.".He later said that was the one act in his law career that he regretted.

Because two died in prison of old age,one was paroled,one died of medical causes.All because of appeals and deals.These guys ended up in g.p.One of my sarges had interaction with one of these murderers.He ran a gang that raped,assaulted and ran a protection racket on their dorms.Since he was a high profile inmate the warden there shielded him from most sanctions.So in the interest of no death penalty these p.o.s. lived 15-30 years longer than their victims and caused untold pain and misery.

Some people are "broken" as one earlier poster called them.The best thing for these people is to be used as an object lesson.They will never be anything but a burden to the world.Execute them.

My view is a bit extreme.
I think execution and display of the body as a warning to others not to follow that path would be a good idea.
 
Originally Posted By: urrlord
Another Correctional Officer here 25+ years experience.

In most death cases it is the culmination of an individuals career path that escalated from petty crimes to violence.It is pretty much deserved by that point.


That was my experience as well, save for the one guy who killed his daughters rapist. He had a clean record up to that point.

Quote:
For the crowd that yells life without parole,put them in solitary.That is not allowed.Solitary is used in tightly governed circumstances and it is not actually solitary it is a group of 1 and 2 man cells away from the general population.Many prisons have open dorms,not cells.


Try as you might you won't ever get the general public to understand that. There is no such thing as "toss them in the hole". Solitary doesn't exist. It is just a special housing unit for disciplinary detention and administrative segregation cases.



Quote:
Because two died in prison of old age,one was paroled,one died of medical causes.All because of appeals and deals.These guys ended up in g.p.One of my sarges had interaction with one of these murderers.He ran a gang that raped,assaulted and ran a protection racket on their dorms.Since he was a high profile inmate the warden there shielded him from most sanctions.So in the interest of no death penalty these p.o.s. lived 15-30 years longer than their victims and caused untold pain and misery.


Again, something that the general public cannot wrap their minds around. They wring their hands and weep over "the poor inmates". If they were really concerned about inmate welfare they would understand that someone willing to escalate to the level of murder outside isn't going to stop their predation inside. So rather than snuff out one case of a terminal bad apple/fundamentaly broken individual, they call for life imprisonment where the schmuck that stole one too many cars gets the privledge of being victimized by the murderer that the bleeding hearts won't put down. So now instead of having someone who might have turned over a new leaf after finishing up the nickel they were in on we have another graduate of the extortion and rackateering club who has a worse attitude and outlook than when they came in... that is if they manage to survive and don't wind up completely broken themselves after falling victim to the friendly celblock rapist.
 
wtd said:
This is just a subject that people will have widely different views. Most people don't have the experience with this segment of society to realize what they are about.

Try working around these people for years listening to them whine about how mistreated they are or how they deserve this or that. Listen to them call you names or trying to assault you. Most of these people are not your friendly neighbor next door.

Listen to them whine that the food is not good enough even though they are getting three free meals a day. Watch them get health care and procedures done that most people on the street cannot afford.

I will give you an example of the [censored] I put up with. Last week one of our segregation inmates had his cell searched and had an extra blanket he had taken away. Next thing you know he floods the range, starts kicking on his door and covers his window. He disrupts the unit for the next couple of hours while we are cleaning up water. All of this over a blanket. This is just one example of many of this kind of petty [censored] that these guys do.

I guess some of you can't understand what you don't know.

Wayne [/quote

11.gif
Click to expand...
 
Originally Posted By: buickman50401
They wring their hands and weep over "the poor inmates".


Show me one case where anyone here has wrung their hands over the "poor inmates"
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: buickman50401
They wring their hands and weep over "the poor inmates".


Show me one case where anyone here has wrung their hands over the "poor inmates"


I never said anyone here specifically, and in fact no one here has expressed that sentiment.

The point made by myself as well as the other COs who joined the discussion was that the members of the general public who are in support of life without parole instead of execution have typically been the same people who have pushed for "prison reform" to the point that prisons no longer have any ability to effectively isolate the lifers who are intent on continuing their predatory activities in prison.

Going hand in hand with that, this group of people also encompasses the "poor inmates" crowd. The irony being that their efforts to preserve the life of murders puts the welfare (and often life) of other inmates at risk.

To break it down:

1) a position of LWOP and put them in solitary

1b) is not possible because solitary is a myth

1c) the best approximation of what passes for "the hole" today is the max security AdSeg/DD housing units which are nothing like the "solitary" that the public assumes exists in prisons

1d) these LWOP cases can only be placed in AdSeg or disciplinary detention for specific reasons and for a limited period of time - for example not to exceed 365 days at the prison where I worked

1e) those limitations are prescribed by DOC policies to abide by state and/or federal laws - laws which are the results of court cases and lobbying for "prison reform"

2) the people who hold the attitude of "those poor inmates" and want to protect them from abuse and suffering (at the hands of the prison admin as well as other inmates)

2b) were the same people who fought for the restrictions on keeping inmates in Ad/Seg indefinitely

2c) getting those restrictions in place removes the ability of prisons to separate the LWOP cases from the general pop. inmates

2d) this leaves the extremely violent and predatory LWOPs free to remain in the gen. pop. and victimize other inmates

Now that you can see how it all connects together, do you understand the point that I and others were making about how refusal to execute leads to more victimization inside of the prisons?

Other than maintaining certain privileges, there is no incentive for the LWOPs to not kill again (or engage in other heinous activities like rape). If they kill or start raping at best they'll put back through the courts, given another sentence (which is pointless), and then placed in AdSeg/DD for the maximum time permitted and then released back into the gen. pop.

I'm fully aware of you're position of LWOP coupled with "harsh" conditions and never said held a "poor inmates" attitude. I'm simply trying to explain to you how your position is untenable given the realities of how policy decisions are made.
 
I admit, I tend to 'sit on the fence' when it comes to the Capitol punishment question.

I do not like the idea of government having the ultimate power to end peoples lives (but I guess they do, and always have had that!)

On the other hand, there are people that have proved themselves to be no more than Human Garbage.
What do we do with such people? I know of NO real solution, in any part of the world, at any time, where a satisfactory solution has been found.

Interesting article here about Albert Pierrpoint Britain's long serving executioner.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/law-obituaries/5768567/Albert-Pierrepoint.html

Another interesting story, about one of Pierrpoint's customers. A series of crimes that ultimately lead to the abolition of the death penalty in the U.K.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Christie_%28murderer%29
 
I have found that someone who is against capital punishment will usually stay that way unless something drastic happens to them or someone close to them and even then sometimes their mind is not changed. Some people are just against killing another person no matter what the circumstance is. I'm not one of those people.

Like I and others have already stated, some people are beyond saving and serve no useful purpose to society. I've dealt with plenty of inmates over the years whose only goel is to cause as much hate and discontent as they can possible can. They have no regard or respect for anyone and will hurt you at the drop of a hat. I think if some of these non capital punishment people had to deal with people like this on a regular basis, it might give them a different perspective.

Working in a correctional setting can harden you toward people over time. I know it has me.

Wayne
 
I'm NOT against killing another person...the contrary, I consider most of the human race a waste of oxygen. I just do not trust the court system.
 
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