Nurse arrested for doing her job.
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gathermewool
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Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: gman2304
WOW...this can't just be ignored...or has it?
It will be whitewashed. I hope that nurse has the sense to skip town.
Too bad nobody gave that cop a hot shot.
Everything alright, Jarlaxle? I don't know you, of course, but these posts don't seem like who I thought you were. This must have struck a painful chord. I'm sorry for whatever happened to you to cause this kind of response, EVEN if directed only toward megalomaniacs like Officer Payne.
I didn't quote all of your posts, because I believe they'll be deleted.
Originally Posted By: gman2304
WOW...this can't just be ignored...or has it?
It will be whitewashed. I hope that nurse has the sense to skip town.
Too bad nobody gave that cop a hot shot.
Everything alright, Jarlaxle? I don't know you, of course, but these posts don't seem like who I thought you were. This must have struck a painful chord. I'm sorry for whatever happened to you to cause this kind of response, EVEN if directed only toward megalomaniacs like Officer Payne.
I didn't quote all of your posts, because I believe they'll be deleted.
Outside the arrest, the part I find intriguing is this started with attempting to draw blood from a victim, not a perpetrator. I'm not buying the "protecting" him in some manner explanation. Certainly not about protecting his rights as the nurse was doing. Imo, more about helping out with some CYA.
4WD
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I don't see white privilege in that video - I see white trash with a badge ...
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Outside the arrest, the part I find intriguing is this started with attempting to draw blood from a victim, not a perpetrator. I'm not buying the "protecting" him in some manner explanation. Certainly not about protecting his rights as the nurse was doing. Imo, more about helping out with some CYA.
Maybe an experienced truck driver will answer, but whenever a commercial truck is in an accident, it seems like a different set of standards are imposed on the truck driver in order to, as you say, CYA on the situation. Even with this being the other drivers fault, they will be investigation the trucker's driving log, accident history, safety inspections, equipment condition, etc..
Outside the arrest, the part I find intriguing is this started with attempting to draw blood from a victim, not a perpetrator. I'm not buying the "protecting" him in some manner explanation. Certainly not about protecting his rights as the nurse was doing. Imo, more about helping out with some CYA.
Maybe an experienced truck driver will answer, but whenever a commercial truck is in an accident, it seems like a different set of standards are imposed on the truck driver in order to, as you say, CYA on the situation. Even with this being the other drivers fault, they will be investigation the trucker's driving log, accident history, safety inspections, equipment condition, etc..
It seems I'm thinking of different kind of CYA, ie., not for the benefit of the semi driver who was the victim of the chase.
That aside, the officers involved clearly in the wrong trying to force an illegal blood draw of the semi driver.
That aside, the officers involved clearly in the wrong trying to force an illegal blood draw of the semi driver.
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Outside the arrest, the part I find intriguing is this started with attempting to draw blood from a victim, not a perpetrator. I'm not buying the "protecting" him in some manner explanation. Certainly not about protecting his rights as the nurse was doing. Imo, more about helping out with some CYA.
I didn't get why he was so desperate to do it. It was a courtesy request from another agency. The SLCPD wasn't responsible for the chase (Utah Highway Patrol) or the investigation (Logan Police). They were claiming it was to possibly exonerate the driver. The driver was a reserve police officer in Idaho, but I'm not sure they knew that at the time. I've heard suggestions that if they found alcohol or drugs in his system, it might mitigate any damages for conducting a high speed chase.
And now this is being investigated by another police department. It's the Unified Police Department, which seems to be spun off from the Salt Lake County Sheriff (which only handles the jails and security at county buildings now).
Outside the arrest, the part I find intriguing is this started with attempting to draw blood from a victim, not a perpetrator. I'm not buying the "protecting" him in some manner explanation. Certainly not about protecting his rights as the nurse was doing. Imo, more about helping out with some CYA.
I didn't get why he was so desperate to do it. It was a courtesy request from another agency. The SLCPD wasn't responsible for the chase (Utah Highway Patrol) or the investigation (Logan Police). They were claiming it was to possibly exonerate the driver. The driver was a reserve police officer in Idaho, but I'm not sure they knew that at the time. I've heard suggestions that if they found alcohol or drugs in his system, it might mitigate any damages for conducting a high speed chase.
And now this is being investigated by another police department. It's the Unified Police Department, which seems to be spun off from the Salt Lake County Sheriff (which only handles the jails and security at county buildings now).
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: gman2304
What city did this happen in?
Salt Lake City at the University of Utah Hospital. The crash actually happened in Logan, Utah. Apparently this cop was asked to get a blood sample by Logan Police. Also on hand are University of Utah Police, who I heard had told him flat out that he needed a warrant to draw blood.
Too bad none of them had the stones to stop him...ideally, by drawing and cocking on him.
There's video of the cops talking after the incident.
http://www.sltrib.com/pb/news/2017/09/02...ients-elsewhere
Right at the end he's talking about it like the University of Utah officers didn't interfere with the arrest out of professional courtesy and that he would have done the same for them. I think the other office pr he's talking to is the lieutenant, who got there after the order to arrest, but I'm not 100% sure.
Payne: And the officer and security showed up and said "we can't stop him."
Unidentified officer: Yeah.
Payne: "We're not getting involved".
Unidentified officer: He said the right thing.
Payne: He did it....the correct way. Which is the way I would have done it if he was arresting someone in Salt Lake City.
Unidentified officer: Right.
Payne: I would stand there and say "What do you want me to do?"
Unidentified officer: (muffled question)
Payne: And then I physically drugged her out of the ER.
Unidentified officer: (muffled) Definitely do a report though.
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: gman2304
What city did this happen in?
Salt Lake City at the University of Utah Hospital. The crash actually happened in Logan, Utah. Apparently this cop was asked to get a blood sample by Logan Police. Also on hand are University of Utah Police, who I heard had told him flat out that he needed a warrant to draw blood.
Too bad none of them had the stones to stop him...ideally, by drawing and cocking on him.
There's video of the cops talking after the incident.
http://www.sltrib.com/pb/news/2017/09/02...ients-elsewhere
Right at the end he's talking about it like the University of Utah officers didn't interfere with the arrest out of professional courtesy and that he would have done the same for them. I think the other office pr he's talking to is the lieutenant, who got there after the order to arrest, but I'm not 100% sure.
Payne: And the officer and security showed up and said "we can't stop him."
Unidentified officer: Yeah.
Payne: "We're not getting involved".
Unidentified officer: He said the right thing.
Payne: He did it....the correct way. Which is the way I would have done it if he was arresting someone in Salt Lake City.
Unidentified officer: Right.
Payne: I would stand there and say "What do you want me to do?"
Unidentified officer: (muffled question)
Payne: And then I physically drugged her out of the ER.
Unidentified officer: (muffled) Definitely do a report though.
Alcohol is metabolized fairly quickly, so that is why he was in a hurry to get it, although I am also confused as to why he wanted it.
I suspect he was using the bullying and intimidation tactic ( which is a common law enforcement tactic, including bald faced lying, btw ) because it might be difficult to get it otherwise and he knew it.
The hospital would likely have taken blood when the victim came into the ER, including chemistry, but you can't have a criminal case against a dead person, which I understand the perp was, so no case to prosecute in court, no subpoena power, most likely. No probable cause that I can see to support a warrant against the victim. No way to get his consent - he's incapacitated.
So, problematic. Even if he got it, it would likely never be admissible if it was unfavorable to the victim, because of the lack of probable cause to get it.
Making that kind of scene on camera and in front of dozens of witnesses, this tool felt secure in his misconduct - it's why he expressed little fear of losing his job. That's an organizational problem.
Still, I feel some of this outrage is over the top. This guy probably needs another career, but as far as police misconduct goes, I see it as being on the mild end of the scale. No one shot, no one injured, no one framed. His own crimes are probably no more than misdemeanors.
When the guy ( who was safe on the phone ) told the tool he was making a big mistake, the outcome for the nurse was set in stone.
I suspect he was using the bullying and intimidation tactic ( which is a common law enforcement tactic, including bald faced lying, btw ) because it might be difficult to get it otherwise and he knew it.
The hospital would likely have taken blood when the victim came into the ER, including chemistry, but you can't have a criminal case against a dead person, which I understand the perp was, so no case to prosecute in court, no subpoena power, most likely. No probable cause that I can see to support a warrant against the victim. No way to get his consent - he's incapacitated.
So, problematic. Even if he got it, it would likely never be admissible if it was unfavorable to the victim, because of the lack of probable cause to get it.
Making that kind of scene on camera and in front of dozens of witnesses, this tool felt secure in his misconduct - it's why he expressed little fear of losing his job. That's an organizational problem.
Still, I feel some of this outrage is over the top. This guy probably needs another career, but as far as police misconduct goes, I see it as being on the mild end of the scale. No one shot, no one injured, no one framed. His own crimes are probably no more than misdemeanors.
When the guy ( who was safe on the phone ) told the tool he was making a big mistake, the outcome for the nurse was set in stone.
Originally Posted By: Win
Alcohol is metabolized fairly quickly, so that is why he was in a hurry to get it, although I am also confused as to why he wanted it.
I suspect he was using the bullying and intimidation tactic ( which is a common law enforcement tactic, including bald faced lying, btw ) because it might be difficult to get it otherwise and he knew it.
The hospital would likely have taken blood when the victim came into the ER, including chemistry, but you can't have a criminal case against a dead person, which I understand the perp was, so no case to prosecute in court, no subpoena power, most likely. No probable cause that I can see to support a warrant against the victim. No way to get his consent - he's incapacitated.
So, problematic. Even if he got it, it would likely never be admissible if it was unfavorable to the victim, because of the lack of probable cause to get it.
Making that kind of scene on camera and in front of dozens of witnesses, this tool felt secure in his misconduct - it's why he expressed little fear of losing his job. That's an organizational problem.
Still, I feel some of this outrage is over the top. This guy probably needs another career, but as far as police misconduct goes, I see it as being on the mild end of the scale. No one shot, no one injured, no one framed. His own crimes are probably no more than misdemeanors.
When the guy ( who was safe on the phone ) told the tool he was making a big mistake, the outcome for the nurse was set in stone.
In the discussion outside of the ER, they're actually saying that there's probably already blood drawn as part of the victim's treatment.
As for intent, I found out it was Logan Police doing the chase with a Utah Highway Patrol roadblock. They made the request, ostensibly to minimize their liability.
Alcohol is metabolized fairly quickly, so that is why he was in a hurry to get it, although I am also confused as to why he wanted it.
I suspect he was using the bullying and intimidation tactic ( which is a common law enforcement tactic, including bald faced lying, btw ) because it might be difficult to get it otherwise and he knew it.
The hospital would likely have taken blood when the victim came into the ER, including chemistry, but you can't have a criminal case against a dead person, which I understand the perp was, so no case to prosecute in court, no subpoena power, most likely. No probable cause that I can see to support a warrant against the victim. No way to get his consent - he's incapacitated.
So, problematic. Even if he got it, it would likely never be admissible if it was unfavorable to the victim, because of the lack of probable cause to get it.
Making that kind of scene on camera and in front of dozens of witnesses, this tool felt secure in his misconduct - it's why he expressed little fear of losing his job. That's an organizational problem.
Still, I feel some of this outrage is over the top. This guy probably needs another career, but as far as police misconduct goes, I see it as being on the mild end of the scale. No one shot, no one injured, no one framed. His own crimes are probably no more than misdemeanors.
When the guy ( who was safe on the phone ) told the tool he was making a big mistake, the outcome for the nurse was set in stone.
In the discussion outside of the ER, they're actually saying that there's probably already blood drawn as part of the victim's treatment.
As for intent, I found out it was Logan Police doing the chase with a Utah Highway Patrol roadblock. They made the request, ostensibly to minimize their liability.
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
It seems I'm thinking of different kind of CYA, ie., not for the benefit of the semi driver who was the victim of the chase.
That aside, the officers involved clearly in the wrong trying to force an illegal blood draw of the semi driver.
We actually might be on the same page. I was thinking that if the cops were involved in a chase that resulted in an accident with death and injuries, anything they can dig up to take the attention off their component of the situation might help their defense. I.E., a drunk trunk driver 3 days on the road straight, driving a truck with bad tires.....if he had been following procedures, he wouldn't have been on the road at that moment to get hit head on. Its his fault. I think that truck drivers and companies are held to a higher standard of investigation because its a workplace accident for the driver and the company has deep pockets, to put a bit of cynicism into it.
YPW summed it up well, regarding the blood request: "They made the request, ostensibly to minimize their liability."
Watch the longer version of the incident and get equally outraged how the second officer is trying to rationalize with the nurse (in handcuffs)why she is wrong. He is pummeling her with questions while she was under extreme duress. I'm surprised her bosses did not tell her say nothing. Any slip up will trip you up in court. Go to minute 10 of this video....disgusting:
It seems I'm thinking of different kind of CYA, ie., not for the benefit of the semi driver who was the victim of the chase.
That aside, the officers involved clearly in the wrong trying to force an illegal blood draw of the semi driver.
We actually might be on the same page. I was thinking that if the cops were involved in a chase that resulted in an accident with death and injuries, anything they can dig up to take the attention off their component of the situation might help their defense. I.E., a drunk trunk driver 3 days on the road straight, driving a truck with bad tires.....if he had been following procedures, he wouldn't have been on the road at that moment to get hit head on. Its his fault. I think that truck drivers and companies are held to a higher standard of investigation because its a workplace accident for the driver and the company has deep pockets, to put a bit of cynicism into it.
YPW summed it up well, regarding the blood request: "They made the request, ostensibly to minimize their liability."
Watch the longer version of the incident and get equally outraged how the second officer is trying to rationalize with the nurse (in handcuffs)why she is wrong. He is pummeling her with questions while she was under extreme duress. I'm surprised her bosses did not tell her say nothing. Any slip up will trip you up in court. Go to minute 10 of this video....disgusting:
I don't know any of the facts about the chase.
An out of control drunk, or otherwise incapacitated person on the highway, is a pretty difficult situation. I'm not eager to Monday morning quarterback that. It may be a darned if you do, darned if you don't scenario for everybody.
Assuming - strictly for the sake of argument - that they have liability for that, I'm unclear how it helps them to establish that they chased a drunk into a drunk.
An out of control drunk, or otherwise incapacitated person on the highway, is a pretty difficult situation. I'm not eager to Monday morning quarterback that. It may be a darned if you do, darned if you don't scenario for everybody.
Assuming - strictly for the sake of argument - that they have liability for that, I'm unclear how it helps them to establish that they chased a drunk into a drunk.
I hate seeing this stuff. Only reinforces my distaste and distrust of law enforcement. Also note I have two close friends in it.
Originally Posted By: Win
I don't know any of the facts about the chase.
An out of control drunk, or otherwise incapacitated person on the highway, is a pretty difficult situation. I'm not eager to Monday morning quarterback that. It may be a darned if you do, darned if you don't scenario for everybody.
Assuming - strictly for the sake of argument - that they have liability for that, I'm unclear how it helps them to establish that they chased a drunk into a drunk.
Any unusual situation is difficult. Last week I was on a freeway with someone who appeared mentally ill was crossing the freeway. It was bizarre. I don't think he got hit though.
I don't know any of the facts about the chase.
An out of control drunk, or otherwise incapacitated person on the highway, is a pretty difficult situation. I'm not eager to Monday morning quarterback that. It may be a darned if you do, darned if you don't scenario for everybody.
Assuming - strictly for the sake of argument - that they have liability for that, I'm unclear how it helps them to establish that they chased a drunk into a drunk.
Any unusual situation is difficult. Last week I was on a freeway with someone who appeared mentally ill was crossing the freeway. It was bizarre. I don't think he got hit though.
Any RN has an ethical, legal and professional duty to act in the best interests of her patient.
If she felt that this attempted blood draw violated her responsibilities, then she acted correctly.
In no jurisdiction is it legal for the authorities to compel a blood draw in the absence of a court order.
This officer acted way outside of his legal authority and given the amount of light and heat that's been lavished upon this incident, his future looks pretty dim.
He could even face felony prosecution and incarceration, which to any cop would make loss of pension and loss of all personal assets feel like a pleasant spring breeze.
I can pretty well guarantee that in my county this case would be going to a grand jury, since the county prosecutor isn't going to protect an out of control cop.
Most cops are truly good people, like most folks in most jobs.
We should punish the few bad apples but respect the rest for the difficult job we ask them to do.
In this case, the self-guided tour that media folks are probably already taking through this guys personnel file will likely reveal previous incidents that call into question his continued employment as a peace officer.
If she felt that this attempted blood draw violated her responsibilities, then she acted correctly.
In no jurisdiction is it legal for the authorities to compel a blood draw in the absence of a court order.
This officer acted way outside of his legal authority and given the amount of light and heat that's been lavished upon this incident, his future looks pretty dim.
He could even face felony prosecution and incarceration, which to any cop would make loss of pension and loss of all personal assets feel like a pleasant spring breeze.
I can pretty well guarantee that in my county this case would be going to a grand jury, since the county prosecutor isn't going to protect an out of control cop.
Most cops are truly good people, like most folks in most jobs.
We should punish the few bad apples but respect the rest for the difficult job we ask them to do.
In this case, the self-guided tour that media folks are probably already taking through this guys personnel file will likely reveal previous incidents that call into question his continued employment as a peace officer.
gathermewool Everything alright said:
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
We actually might be on the same page....
Yes, perhaps I misunderstood. Silly thing is, as noted this wasn't even an SLCPD involved chase, it was for Logan PD. However, I think it started about one thing, trying to get the blood draw. But ultimately turned into a power trip and officer Payne set off when told he was "making a huge mistake". Which ironically turns out to be very prophetic.
Quote:
Watch the longer version of the incident and get equally outraged how the second officer is trying to rationalize with the nurse (in handcuffs)why she is wrong. He is pummeling her with questions while she was under extreme duress. I'm surprised her bosses did not tell her say nothing. Any slip up will trip you up in court. Go to minute 10 of this video....disgusting:......
Agreed. I mentioned the same in an earlier post calling him the "supervisor." Name Lt. James Tracy. He allegedly ordered Payne to arrest the nurse for obstruction if she didn't comply.
We actually might be on the same page....
Yes, perhaps I misunderstood. Silly thing is, as noted this wasn't even an SLCPD involved chase, it was for Logan PD. However, I think it started about one thing, trying to get the blood draw. But ultimately turned into a power trip and officer Payne set off when told he was "making a huge mistake". Which ironically turns out to be very prophetic.
Quote:
Watch the longer version of the incident and get equally outraged how the second officer is trying to rationalize with the nurse (in handcuffs)why she is wrong. He is pummeling her with questions while she was under extreme duress. I'm surprised her bosses did not tell her say nothing. Any slip up will trip you up in court. Go to minute 10 of this video....disgusting:......
Agreed. I mentioned the same in an earlier post calling him the "supervisor." Name Lt. James Tracy. He allegedly ordered Payne to arrest the nurse for obstruction if she didn't comply.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Any RN has an ethical, legal and professional duty to act in the best interests of her patient.
If she felt that this attempted blood draw violated her responsibilities, then she acted correctly.
In no jurisdiction is it legal for the authorities to compel a blood draw in the absence of a court order.
The nurse was well versed on the procedure. She said that in addition to a warrant the blood could be drawn with consent (obviously not possible since he was comatose) or if he was under arrest. Now arresting a comatose victim just to get a blood sample would have been unusual.
I've heard that maybe they could have tried using the requirement for a driver to consent to an alcohol screening. Utah's laws don't seem to give the citizen the right to choose the type of screening, but then the penalties are supposedly only suspension of drivers privileges. I was reading one message somewhere that California law specifically states that a driver unconscious after an accident specifically can't be forced to have blood drawn.
Any RN has an ethical, legal and professional duty to act in the best interests of her patient.
If she felt that this attempted blood draw violated her responsibilities, then she acted correctly.
In no jurisdiction is it legal for the authorities to compel a blood draw in the absence of a court order.
The nurse was well versed on the procedure. She said that in addition to a warrant the blood could be drawn with consent (obviously not possible since he was comatose) or if he was under arrest. Now arresting a comatose victim just to get a blood sample would have been unusual.
I've heard that maybe they could have tried using the requirement for a driver to consent to an alcohol screening. Utah's laws don't seem to give the citizen the right to choose the type of screening, but then the penalties are supposedly only suspension of drivers privileges. I was reading one message somewhere that California law specifically states that a driver unconscious after an accident specifically can't be forced to have blood drawn.
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Outside the arrest, the part I find intriguing is this started with attempting to draw blood from a victim, not a perpetrator. I'm not buying the "protecting" him in some manner explanation. Certainly not about protecting his rights as the nurse was doing. Imo, more about helping out with some CYA.
Maybe an experienced truck driver will answer, but whenever a commercial truck is in an accident, it seems like a different set of standards are imposed on the truck driver in order to, as you say, CYA on the situation. Even with this being the other drivers fault, they will be investigation the trucker's driving log, accident history, safety inspections, equipment condition, etc..
Anytime the holder of a CDL is involved in an accident, DOT regulations require the driver to undergo a drug test within, IIRC 2 hours of the accident. This might explain why the detective was frantic in trying to get the drivers blood drawn. Not an excuse, or an attempt to CYA. On the contrary, it's to determine if the driver is impaired in any way.
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Outside the arrest, the part I find intriguing is this started with attempting to draw blood from a victim, not a perpetrator. I'm not buying the "protecting" him in some manner explanation. Certainly not about protecting his rights as the nurse was doing. Imo, more about helping out with some CYA.
Maybe an experienced truck driver will answer, but whenever a commercial truck is in an accident, it seems like a different set of standards are imposed on the truck driver in order to, as you say, CYA on the situation. Even with this being the other drivers fault, they will be investigation the trucker's driving log, accident history, safety inspections, equipment condition, etc..
Anytime the holder of a CDL is involved in an accident, DOT regulations require the driver to undergo a drug test within, IIRC 2 hours of the accident. This might explain why the detective was frantic in trying to get the drivers blood drawn. Not an excuse, or an attempt to CYA. On the contrary, it's to determine if the driver is impaired in any way.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: gman2304
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Outside the arrest, the part I find intriguing is this started with attempting to draw blood from a victim, not a perpetrator. I'm not buying the "protecting" him in some manner explanation. Certainly not about protecting his rights as the nurse was doing. Imo, more about helping out with some CYA.
Maybe an experienced truck driver will answer, but whenever a commercial truck is in an accident, it seems like a different set of standards are imposed on the truck driver in order to, as you say, CYA on the situation. Even with this being the other drivers fault, they will be investigation the trucker's driving log, accident history, safety inspections, equipment condition, etc..
Anytime the holder of a CDL is involved in an accident, DOT regulations require the driver to undergo a drug test within, IIRC 2 hours of the accident. This might explain why the detective was frantic in trying to get the drivers blood drawn. Not an excuse for the out of control detective, but just the way the law is for CDL drivers.
I don't believe the cop was concerned with that, and don't the regulations say that the test is to be conducted by the employer?
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/dr...s-testing-occur
It says "Bodily Injury With Immediate Medical Treatment Away From the Scene" but no citation to the CDL driver wouldn't require a test.
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Outside the arrest, the part I find intriguing is this started with attempting to draw blood from a victim, not a perpetrator. I'm not buying the "protecting" him in some manner explanation. Certainly not about protecting his rights as the nurse was doing. Imo, more about helping out with some CYA.
Maybe an experienced truck driver will answer, but whenever a commercial truck is in an accident, it seems like a different set of standards are imposed on the truck driver in order to, as you say, CYA on the situation. Even with this being the other drivers fault, they will be investigation the trucker's driving log, accident history, safety inspections, equipment condition, etc..
Anytime the holder of a CDL is involved in an accident, DOT regulations require the driver to undergo a drug test within, IIRC 2 hours of the accident. This might explain why the detective was frantic in trying to get the drivers blood drawn. Not an excuse for the out of control detective, but just the way the law is for CDL drivers.
I don't believe the cop was concerned with that, and don't the regulations say that the test is to be conducted by the employer?
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/dr...s-testing-occur
It says "Bodily Injury With Immediate Medical Treatment Away From the Scene" but no citation to the CDL driver wouldn't require a test.
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