First Oil Change...Wait 10K Miles?

[antiqueshell]

It's pretty funny to see all the comments about the small metal particles supposedly floating around lose in the engine with the factory fill. That my friends is what the oil filter is for, to capture any potentially damaging particles.

There is NO good reason to do a oil change early unless it has been over 16 months, then I would recommend a change due to acid build up.

 

[demarpaint]

No need to wait. I'll take the BMW engineers comments treat them as Gospel, long before you'll convince me otherwise. Why not talk with some engine builders and get their feedback too. I did, and I worked with some of the best engine builders on Long Island. I didn't need much convincing after that.

Obviously if there are high wear metal counts in UOA reports from new engines then the filter is missing something isn't it?

 

[lemonade]

First, I'm not saying which camp is right, just some analysis.
Many people here judge their engine's wear rate base on UOA, fine. Now UOA number is a concentration (ppm or whatever), Let's say a car usually need an OCI of 10K, and it will return say 100ppm of Fe (make up number).
Now imagine a another same car same driving habit, the owner decide to dump the FF early, and split it to 3.3K OCI, and see a lowered Fe level (or whatever Pb, Zn), and if it see 33ppm every UOA during the 10K interval, one can say "yeah, Fe level is low, good run", or I can argue if muliply the concentration and the volume, you get the total amount, you add them up, is still the same as the 10K OCI.Shorter OCI by default will yield lower wear number, simply because you leave it shorter time in the sump, eventhough the engine is wearing at the same rate compare to the longer OCI. This is not surprise right?
Of course, whatever said above is made up, but i think you guys get my point, right? conc. does not equal to total amount.
The truth is most of the claim here are opinions, doesn't matter if it's from a plant tourer or engine builder, when we want to make judgement on these kind of matter, hard core scientific process is needed, and We will probably never see these kind of controlled experiment.
But ppls here are right, if it make you fell better, change it.

Oh, Happy Long Weekend, going to a hike now!

 

[demarpaint]

Here's something funny, to think about. Imagine a UOA report for an engine run 10K on the oil with 40,000 or 50,000 miles on it and 150 to 200 iron count. Then take a new vehicle with an early drain of a FF with the same engine showing similar numbers only for a much shorter interval. [These are numbers pulled out of the sky to show my point]. I bet the same guys telling the OP to leave the FF in for 10K miles would be telling the OP he has problems, and that the same metal count is harmful to the engine, and to get it out.!!! But when it was new the metal wasn't harmful and it should stay in for 10K miles, it was no problem then.

 

[boxcartommie22]

change your oil filter at 1500 miles then at 3000 change your oil and filter

 

[TFB1]

Since I've never owned a new vehicle and probably never will, this will never be a issue I'll loose any sleep over...

 

[Gene K]

How exactly do you know how many miles a Prius Engine has?

I mean the vehicle might have 10,000 but the engine might only have 5,000 miles.

While fuel used is usually more accurate than mileage (for scheduling OCI) I think it makes even more sense with a Prius.

PS Since most studies state that debris below 10 Microns have minimal effect on wear and most full flow oil filters have a nominal rating of around 10 Microns exactly why are we doing an early change?

 

[Oil Changer]

Apples to oranges. Your argument is nonsensical. You can not compare a UOA result from a new engine and compare it to one with 40 or 50k. Of course we would say there was problems! So yes, your analogy is funny. And My argument would not be that the particles are (in and of themselves) harmful, rather that there is a serious engine problem.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Here's something funny, to think about. Imagine a UOA report for an engine run 10K on the oil with 40,000 or 50,000 miles on it and 150 to 200 iron count. Then take a new vehicle with an early drain of a FF with the same engine showing similar numbers only for a much shorter interval. [These are numbers pulled out of the sky to show my point]. I bet the same guys telling the OP to leave the FF in for 10K miles would be telling the OP he has problems, and that the same metal count is harmful to the engine, and to get it out.!!! But when it was new the metal wasn't harmful and it should stay in for 10K miles, it was no problem then.

 

[Oil Changer]

Again, explain the difference between "high wear metal counts" and "metal counts". I just changed the FF after 7500 miles. I'm sending the sample in Tuesday. I KNOW all the "high wear metal counts" are going to be off the charts. If I believe you, then I have to believe my engine has worn to the point of uselessness in 7500 based on the count. Right?

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
No need to wait. I'll take the BMW engineers comments treat them as Gospel, long before you'll convince me otherwise. Why not talk with some engine builders and get their feedback too. I did, and I worked with some of the best engine builders on Long Island. I didn't need much convincing after that.

Obviously if there are high wear metal counts in UOA reports from new engines then the filter is missing something isn't it?

 

[R2d2]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
No need to wait. I'll take the BMW engineers comments treat them as Gospel, long before you'll convince me otherwise. Why not talk with some engine builders and get their feedback too. I did, and I worked with some of the best engine builders on Long Island. I didn't need much convincing after that.

Obviously if there are high wear metal counts in UOA reports from new engines then the filter is missing something isn't it?


No need to wait. I'll take the Honda engineers comments treat them as Gospel, long before you'll convince me otherwise.

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
That's Honda's suggestion, the OP owns a Prius. I'd want the junk out early, you want to leave it in. Seems all these threads take the same route don't they?

OT- Check how many Honda owners dumped the FF early and had a disaster and let me know. There are plenty of members here that have done just that.


I dumped the FF in both my 07 Civics early (one at 500 miles and the other after 3k of highway use from the get go) and both show excellent UOA results @ 100,000 miles.

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Quote:
Why not get that junk ASAP?


Well, Honda says this:

Q. Why should I wait to change the oil the first time?

A. Your Honda engine was delivered with an oil that is specially formulated for new engines that have not yet developed their "natural" wear patterns and may contain minute particles from the manufacturing process.


American Honda strongly recommends this special oil be left in the engine long enough for these wear patterns to develop, usually until the first maintenance interval specified in your Owner's Manual, based on your specific driving conditions.



My question is, why on earth would I want the engine to develop any kind of natural wear patterns early? It just doesn't make sense to me.

There's also absolutely nothing special about Honda's FF oil. It's the same regular bulk oil with the only exception is that it mixes with the assembly lube. That is the so called "special break in oil".

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: Artem


My question is, why on earth would I want the engine to develop any kind of natural wear patterns early? It just doesn't make sense to me.


Which engineer says it will develop natural wear patterns early?

Folks are blind to the fact that the oil filter is filtering out any residual metal particles, which in any case are probably non existent. The cleaning processes for new engine manufacturing processes are amazingly good. It is rare for any damaging particles to be left behind and the oil filter would trap it anyway.

Quote:

There's also absolutely nothing special about Honda's FF oil. It's the same regular bulk oil with the only exception is that it mixes with the assembly lube. That is the so called "special break in oil".


False, it does in fact contain added friction modifiers and detergents as well. It is not just spare assy lube in there mixing with regular oil.

 

[Slick17601]

Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Quote:
Why not get that junk ASAP?


Well, Honda says this:

Q. Why should I wait to change the oil the first time?

A. Your Honda engine was delivered with an oil that is specially formulated for new engines that have not yet developed their "natural" wear patterns and may contain minute particles from the manufacturing process.


American Honda strongly recommends this special oil be left in the engine long enough for these wear patterns to develop, usually until the first maintenance interval specified in your Owner's Manual, based on your specific driving conditions.



My question is, why on earth would I want the engine to develop any kind of natural wear patterns early? It just doesn't make sense to me.

There's also absolutely nothing special about Honda's FF oil. It's the same regular bulk oil with the only exception is that it mixes with the assembly lube. That is the so called "special break in oil".


The piston rings need to wear slightly to seat. It's engine building 101.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Apples to oranges. Your argument is nonsensical. You can not compare a UOA result from a new engine and compare it to one with 40 or 50k. Of course we would say there was problems! So yes, your analogy is funny. And My argument would not be that the particles are (in and of themselves) harmful, rather that there is a serious engine problem.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Here's something funny, to think about. Imagine a UOA report for an engine run 10K on the oil with 40,000 or 50,000 miles on it and 150 to 200 iron count. Then take a new vehicle with an early drain of a FF with the same engine showing similar numbers only for a much shorter interval. [These are numbers pulled out of the sky to show my point]. I bet the same guys telling the OP to leave the FF in for 10K miles would be telling the OP he has problems, and that the same metal count is harmful to the engine, and to get it out.!!! But when it was new the metal wasn't harmful and it should stay in for 10K miles, it was no problem then.


Your argument is funny too. High metal should be removed period! Why leave it in a new engine, where it can cause just as much damage as in an old engine. Wear metal is wear metal,in new or old engines. Yes new engines shed metals faster during break in, a fact of life which I'm not disputing. My question is why why leave it in the sump when a $20 oil change can get it out?

 

[Oil Changer]

I'm mailing my FF sample Tuesday. Check the UOA forum about a week after. We'll all see together. From a UOA, the oil does appear to be run-of-the-mill oil.

Quote:
Artem There's also absolutely nothing special about Honda's FF oil. It's the same regular bulk oil with the only exception is that it mixes with the assembly lube. That is the so called "special break in oil".

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
That's Honda's suggestion, the OP owns a Prius. I'd want the junk out early, you want to leave it in. Seems all these threads take the same route don't they?

OT- Check how many Honda owners dumped the FF early and had a disaster and let me know. There are plenty of members here that have done just that.


I dumped the FF in both my 07 Civics early (one at 500 miles and the other after 3k of highway use from the get go) and both show excellent UOA results @ 100,000 miles.


I remember reading this from you in another thread in an almost exact discussion. Your engine didn't self destruct, and I bet its still in great shape. We think alike! Cheap insurance.

 

[Oil Changer]

You're making up your own terminology to argue with yourself. I'm not advocating one method or the other. For the most part within this thread I have been playing devil's advocate. My Honda is by FAR the longest I've run the FF. Are you saying I damaged my motor?

What factual evidence can you provide to back your opinion that it is best to drain the FF early and against many manufacturer recommendations?

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Apples to oranges. Your argument is nonsensical. You can not compare a UOA result from a new engine and compare it to one with 40 or 50k. Of course we would say there was problems! So yes, your analogy is funny. And My argument would not be that the particles are (in and of themselves) harmful, rather that there is a serious engine problem.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Here's something funny, to think about. Imagine a UOA report for an engine run 10K on the oil with 40,000 or 50,000 miles on it and 150 to 200 iron count. Then take a new vehicle with an early drain of a FF with the same engine showing similar numbers only for a much shorter interval. [These are numbers pulled out of the sky to show my point]. I bet the same guys telling the OP to leave the FF in for 10K miles would be telling the OP he has problems, and that the same metal count is harmful to the engine, and to get it out.!!! But when it was new the metal wasn't harmful and it should stay in for 10K miles, it was no problem then.


Your argument is funny too. High metal should be removed period! Why leave it in a new engine, where it can cause just as much damage as in an old engine. Wear metal is wear metal,in new or old engines. Yes new engines shed metals faster during break in, a fact of life which I'm not disputing. My question is why why leave it in the sump when a $20 oil change can get it out?

 

[Oil Changer]

demarpaint,

What should I look for specifically when my results come back from the lab that will prove your opinion? What damage will the UOA highlight? What differences in engine performance, effeciency, reliability will I notice for leaving my FF in 7500 miles?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
demarpaint,

What should I look for specifically when my results come back from the lab that will prove your opinion? What damage will the UOA highlight? What differences in engine performance, effeciency, reliability will I notice for leaving my FF in 7500 miles?


From your other post it seems I can't play Devils advocate only you can? Interesting. As far as your question is concerned, after 7,500 miles on a new engine I'd hope a UOA highlights nothing wrong with it. Only higher wear metals than on a broken in engine, which I'd prefer to remove early. After you log 150,000 miles lets talk.