Engineers?

[buster]

My ex father in-law worked for XOM for years as an engineer. When Valero bought the refinery he ended up in management for Valero. Like anything else, he has known a few guys that never had engineering degrees that were better at jobs than the degreed engineers. Probably a rare thing.

Getting a 4 year degree at a University proves that you have the ability to learn, thats it. Getting an advanced degree proves that you are mastering the subject. (Masters/PHD) I have known some very smart people academically, but in the real world they fall a bit short.

 

[Turbodriven]

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I don't want to get off an on rant here, but if what you propose was accepted universally it would lead to a Tower of Babel of qualifications. Earning a degree, is not the same as getting assigned a job title.

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I agree, I am not for a minute suggesting that one should rather hire a non-degree individual over one who has, I am just saying that some people who have somehow worked their way into a job and scratched together the knowledge to do that job (and medicine is one of the professions when this does not happen) without attending a formal institution should not be slammed as not actually performing the task say for example as an engineer.

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What if Joe Blow with a high school diploma gets a job that involves some technical work so the employer assigns a job title of "engineer". Does that mean from then on he's a qualified engineer? You want the same guy designing the bridges you drive on or the trusses holding up your roof? How about if they did the same thing in the medical profession? Should we skip the 4 yrs of Pre-Med, the MCATs, 4 years of Med School, 3-4 years of Internship, X years of specialization training and just let Joe Blow treat people after a two-week web-based course?

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As above.

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I'm not saying there are not a lot of very smart and brilliant people without degrees, but we have a system of qualifications to greatly improve the likelihood that the person who is hired to do the job is properly qualified.

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And I agree with that system and certainly the value gained during the process is noticeable when dealing with both types of person.

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If any self proclaimed engineer thinks he's as good or better than any degreed engineer, then he can prove it by simply going to an accredited university night/weekends (or on the web nowadays) and knocking that degree out in short order. Should be easy for him/her if they're half as smart as they think they are.

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Good point, so all you unqualified souls out there go get it…(sounds like Andy from Toy Story

)

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Getting a degree from an accredited university doesn't make you a more intelligent person nor is it an end onto itself. It also doesn't mean you'll have an immediate interest in car maintenance or how to best invest/spend your money. It simply equips you with a verified minimum set of tools to perform proficiently in a particular job, or in preparation to expand your horizons further whether educationally or professionally..

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100%

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And while I'm on a rant...what's really a pathetic is to see older technician types rag on young engineers for their lack of practical knowledge. Well Duh! Of course many of them will suffer a lack of practical knowledge. Young engineers were spending years learning math, chemistry, physics and other specialized knowledge while the young tech learned the best way to get a rusted bolt off or troubleshoot the machine using the repair manual. Both the young engineer and the young technician need OJT to become proficient in any specialized job. Very, very few people have the capability to know everything. The limited time we have on earth pretty much guarantees that.

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Yip, seen this all too often…in fact I know a chap with two degrees, fresh out of university and every interview he goes to, they say he is not experienced and should go get some…lovely catch 22 isn’t it.

I'm impressed 427 and I managed to have a civil debate

 

[Turbodriven]

Shiza, I really cocked up the quoting there…but its ok, Im not qualified to operate the thread...fear not, I'll be qualified by Monday...www.quickdegrees.co.ussr

 

[Turbodriven]

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My ex father in-law worked for XOM for years as an engineer. When Valero bought the refinery he ended up in management for Valero. Like anything else, he has known a few guys that never had engineering degrees that were better at jobs than the degreed engineers. Probably a rare thing.

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And now it all comes out...the real reason for Mobil going Grp III is because of Busters ex father-in law not having a degree...
Only kidding Buster

 

[TeeDub]

427ZO6,

Hey, I was just checking to see if you were awake down there in Austin!

I agree 100% with your post about the value of accreditation and I find that the young engineers are work are some of the most productive folks we have, once they have 5-10 years of training under their belts. They tend to be a lot more open minded and not so set in their ways....

I'm not an engineer - I'm a rocket scientist...LOL!

TD

 

[427Z06]

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to follow on 427Z06 very well thought out post (when i rant, the spittle on the keyboard causes misspellings), i have met a few "mustangs", that is engineers worthy of the title who learned it the hard way. they are less and less common these days, more so back the the early years. they are also all quite old, you don't learn real engineering from OJT in 4 years, or 8. the PE qualifications actually reflect this, as you can take the PE licensing exam without having a degree (or at least you could, haven't checked lately). i believe the substitution range was either 12 or 16 years of work under the direct supervision of a PE.

it is even my contention (endorsed by the state of texas) that a person isn't really an engineer until he passes the licensing exam. getting a degree from an ABET accredited school is a start (diploma mills don't count), but doesn't make you an engineer. someone who will go after the PE and meet the requirements and get through the bloody test (couldn't even remember where i had parked afterwards), gets the title.

still may not be able to change the oil, but that is a different skill set, eh?

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I agree with you up to a point. I make the distinction between a "Degreed Engineer" (DE) and a "Professional Engineer" (PE). PEs like to believe they're the only real engineers, but in final analysis it's just a different set of qualifications for a title...a number of years as an intern followed and an exam. Not much different than a DE that has to attend classes and labs for years and has to take a whole boatload of exams and possibly defend a dissertation. If PEs like to think they're a notch better, I'll grant them that little bit of vanity. However, there's some engineering disciplines where you just won't find any PEs. In my early years working on radar designs for the military, I can guarantee you there wasn't one PE in building full of engineers. And I doubt that there are many, if any, PEs that could do that job. And there's quite a few engineering specialties that are like that.

Now if it involves evaluating the structural integrity, electrical, and/or mechanical systems of a house prior to purchase or renovation; designing a new house or addition; designing the water and sewerage systems, storm drainage facilities, and/or road layouts for a housing development or other tract of land; designing commercial, industrial, and transportation facilities and municipal facilities such as water and wastewater treatment plants; and dams and bridges, you likely find only PEs doing that job.

 

[John K]

Some very interesting posts here. I am reminded of an old supervisor of maintenance at a power plant when I started out, he had a corner office and a booming voice. He loved yelling at a new engineer when they asked a dumb question.. "You buys'em books and you buys'em books, and they still don't know nothing!" I get a chuckle out of it every time I remember it.....

 

[427Z06]

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I have known some very smart people academically, but in the real world they fall a bit short.

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And then there's people who just fall a bit short.

 

[buster]

He actually had a Electrical Engineering degree from Texas A&M.

Our president has the accreditation of Yale/Harvard?...look where that has got us.

....it's not what you know, it's who you know. What a shame...

 

[427Z06]

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I'm not an engineer - I'm a rocket scientist...LOL!

TD

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I think I've seen some of your work.

 

[buster]

...that was good.

 

[rhi]

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when trying to hire young engineers is that they don't want to do any work?!?! They all want to be project managers

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Yeah, Winston, I see that too. "Project Management" seems to to be the holy grail these days. To me, it's always just been something that one did in the normal course of engineering work.

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My son is in college, studying to become an engineer...What advice would any of you have for my son?

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tigrpal, If your son is an ME see if he can get a summer job in a machine shop or some other way to get a "feel" for materials, tolerances, etc. If an EE, see if you can get him interested in building up some gadgets from kits (am I showing my age by mentioning 'Heathkits'

).

My experience is that the best engineers have an intuition or feel for what what works and what doesn't. They've gotten from trying to work with stuff that other people have designed (wrenching on a car, etc.).

I've seen too many new grads who haven't built anything and believe everything the CAD program tells them. That's how you wind up with 6 foot rack assemblies with 0.001" tolerances and wonder why all your fab vendors no-bid your job.

 

[cheetahdriver]

yeah, i never actually stamped anything, and most of the PE's i know haven't either (don't have many friends in the civil side of the biz). you don't need the credentials in machine design, and the kind of consulting i do doesn't require them either. i got the PE because it was the last test i needed to take. there are more advanced degrees (i only have a BSME, from an ABET accredited school), but the PE says not only do you have the degree, you have the experience (required to submit it all to the board), you have testimonials from those who work with you, and you know how to apply the knowledge. was important to me, even if i never used it, and it is the only initials i ever stick behind my name.

of course, that and a dime will get you a cup of joe in a cheap cafe.... and "what have you done for us, TODAY".

 

[cheetahdriver]

absolutely on the summer job thing. my summer jobs in school were,

pouring crew in a grey steel foundry (made me decide i REALLY wanted to finish school)

engineering staff at an open pit copper mine (blasting crew for 3 weeks) got do amazing things, meet some REAL old school engineers and see what REAL engineering was about.

engineering staff at rockwell international (now boeing) space division. got to see how aerospace really works. was the last time i really wanted a job doing government contracting.

my GPA wasn't the greatest, but i got the first job out of school because i had been actually doing stuff. highly recommended.

 

[427Z06]

cheetahdriver, your BSME and PE is something to be proud of, and something I respect. That and a quarter won't get you a cup of coffee either.

 

[427Z06]

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What advice would any of you have for my son?

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See if any local companies have college internship programs. The more effort put into the search could land something aligned with his goals.

The pay is usually pretty good, but more importantly, will give your son some valuble experience and a possible foot in the door down the road.

 

[BigAl]

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yeah, i never actually stamped anything, and most of the PE's i know haven't either (don't have many friends in the civil side of the biz). you don't need the credentials in machine design, and the kind of consulting i do doesn't require them either. i got the PE because it was the last test i needed to take. there are more advanced degrees (i only have a BSME, from an ABET accredited school), but the PE says not only do you have the degree, you have the experience (required to submit it all to the board), you have testimonials from those who work with you, and you know how to apply the knowledge. was important to me, even if i never used it, and it is the only initials i ever stick behind my name.

of course, that and a dime will get you a cup of joe in a cheap cafe.... and "what have you done for us, TODAY".

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Been there, done that too. I once stamped a blank piece of paper just to see what my stamp looked like . . . back in 1985. I keep sending my money to the state to renew my license though. That way if I ever design something that somebody hurts themselves with, it will be easier for them to sue me.

 

[ccs v2.0]

tigrpal, my advise to your son is slightly different. Besides the engineering skills, have him work on technical report writing, and people and project management skills.

In my line of work, consulting, besides technical skills, writing skills and salesmanship (and politics) play a large role. Some people here place more importance on them than technical skills. One partner bluntly put it as being 90% sales/10% technical (what a joke). Also, only 20% of these "managers" can actually manage a project; the others mismanage, micro-manage, are afraid to make a decision or are so hands-off that what they really do is neglect; but when the #@$%! hits the fan, they are the first ones pointing fingers. And that's on the project side of business; on the administrative side, most of the "managers" in charge are so afraid of confrontation that they won't directly deal with a problem, rather, they opt for dictating new company policy as opposed to dealing directly with the problem.

 

[BigAl]

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My son is in college, studying to become an engineer. I've always done my own car maintainence but he never joined me and never seemed interested. (We had an interesting discussion one night on oil viscosity, temperature, and pressure because he was taking a class called "Incompressible Flow.") What advice would any of you have for my son?

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If he wants to be involved in any sort of manufacturing, it might be good for him to learn Chinese. The way things are going, I'm not real bullish on the future of manufacturing in the USA. Hopefully the company I work for will keep some production in the US for another 10 years or so . . . Life in the Guandong province doesn't appeal to me very much.

Seriously, if he wants to be good, encourage him get as much hands-on experience as possible. My years in the machine shop and wrenching on cars, appliances, etc. are at least as valuable than my years studying thermo and fluid dynamics. It really helps me understand how things operate in the real world. It gave me a huge head start when I got out of school.

 

[John K]

Showing age here when a dime cup of coffee is mentioned. I bet you would be hard pressed to get a cup for less than a buck today?