cap monthly student-loan payments

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: oilyriser
The best teacher is a parent who cares about his kids, and teaches them at every opportunity. I try to teach my friends stuff all the time. Edumakation is another monopoly system, where you have to get a special piece of paper, which can only be granted by a select group of businesses. It's no different from the Medical Monopoly, and prices are outrageous, for the same reason.
Bud I totally agree!

My dad is a smart guy and taught me more about life that I think your average 40 year old today has. I'm not saying I know everything, but I do seem to impress a lot of people around me.

I also firmly believe that College/University isn't everything, it's more who you know and how you network that will get you through life. Sure Engineers/Doctors etc. need this schooling because they are in sometimes "Critical" fields that require it but I think it's more of a business than anything else. I remember when I was going through the system and all the hoopla courses I had to take along with the core "actually learning something" courses.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: StevieC

I also firmly believe that College/University isn't everything, it's more who you know and how you network that will get you through life.


Most of the courses in the education system is there to make you feel "civilized" rather than teaching you stuff that you can make a living on. It may be important when you climb from the middle to upper class and have to act like one, but if you were to teach everyone how to act like the upper class by spending 2x to 3x as much (i.e. private college with good connection vs public vocational school), the society may not get its money worth. Unfortunately the private school system in America has its own problem too. My example and Gary Allan's kid are typical among the private school system of having hidden cost and tiered treatment toward people.

Having choices is great, and you or your parents should be able to choose whether you want to get into the social circle with an arm and a leg, or make an honest living with what you can afford.

The public school isn't bad if the students are all from well off family with no drama or bad influence. Putting these students in private school, well you are going to make the private school just like the public school. If you have public schools that can cherry pick students like private schools, they too would be great just like the ones that people pay an arm and a leg to send their kids to.

Remember, there is a reason why expensive private school gives "scholarship" to outstanding students that can't afford the tuition.

 

[Shannow]

I've got a good example of why "dropout" stats don't tell squat about reality.

My brother "dropped out" of high school half way through year 11, to become an apprentice electrician...20 years later, he's gone from an electrician to a leading hand, to a project manager, to an estimator, and is currently serving as General Manager in a company that's represented in 4 state, and employs a couple hundred people.

But statistically, he's still a drop out.

Most of the nmaintenance crew that I work at in the power industry are high school drop outs also.

 

[StevieC]

Wasn't Bill Gates a Drop-Out?

You know the saying... "It's not who you know, it's who you..." I will leave the last word for you to decide.

As for statistics: Statistically I can prove anything I want statistically with statistics that support my point of view statistically.

 

[Kestas]

Yes, but you're talking about an exception, not the rule. The same can be said about every aspiring athlete.

 

[benjamming]

Shannow,

Nowadays, many of the drop-outs around here could just as well be called deadbeats, thugs, etc. as well.

Another problem that I have is that these are the same people that will complain later in life about the 'rich' & what they would do for a million bucks or whatever, but they wouldn't study & work hard to get it. They expect the government to provide it for them since they deserve it.

I do understand what you are saying though. My grandfather was very smart but not 'properly' educated. I have an uncle that also didn't complete his college degree but can stand his own & has good walking around or horse sense.

Kestas,

I agree with you completely on that college is not for everyone. Trying to make it for everyone is silly & wasteful.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I agree with you completely on that college is not for everyone. Trying to make it for everyone is silly & wasteful.


Throw that in the face of someone who insists that a person wouldn't be in the situation they were in if they just got more education. There you have it, a glut of educated people. Look how well off all of them will be.

 

[sciphi]

Get people educated to a point. That point is currently high school, which from what I'm reading is not achieved by ~11-15% of students, and over 50% of students in some locales. Some people leave school reading at a 5th grade level, or not comprehending enough written English to read the "New York Times", written at a 6th grade level. This after going through school on my dollar for 8+ years.

And then we spend more money locking those same people up because they have just enough smarts to know how to get a "free" roof over their heads, cable TV, medical care, and 3 square meals a day for a few years. And they can hang out with their buds and not worry about where it's all coming from.

The world needs more tradespeople. Make vocational training a viable option like it was years ago, and get the free market out of disbursing FEDERAL student loans. Then we wouldn't need to cap payments because the interest rates would be lower since there's no money-grubbing financial institution between the student and the Dept. of Education which needs to skim off money from the student loan repayments.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Get people educated to a point. That point is currently high school, which from what I'm reading is not achieved by ~11-15% of students, and over 50% of students in some locales. Some people leave school reading at a 5th grade level, or not comprehending enough written English to read the "New York Times", written at a 6th grade level. This after going through school on my dollar for 8+ years.


Well, since it appears variable due to location, I can't see how the Federal Government can possibly be the weak link here. My niece in Florida (the babe that Mark wants to meet) has worse grammar and composition skills than I do. I thought I was emailing with an 8 year old when she was 15.

Quote:
And then we spend more money locking those same people up because they have just enough smarts to know how to get a "free" roof over their heads, cable TV, medical care, and 3 square meals a day for a few years. And they can hang out with their buds and not worry about where it's all coming from.


Are you of the opinion that everyone left out of the American Dream is some crack smoking sleazing lazy good for nothing "sitting on the dock in the bay ..watchin' the time roll away" type? ..and that they don't have the minimum skills to get better jobs ...or jobs at all?

Quote:
The world needs more tradespeople. Make vocational training a viable option like it was years ago,


I don't see a lack of available vocational training being an issue. I had to fight to get my son out of the channeled "not likely to succeed in academia" curriculum due to not being informed that his 5th grade performance was so poor ...or wasn't excellent enough. He would have been given all the shops as regular courses instead of the electives that he chose. As it was, they sent him to community college for computer courses since he ran out of them.

Quote:
and get the free market out of disbursing FEDERAL student loans. Then we wouldn't need to cap payments because the interest rates would be lower since there's no money-grubbing financial institution between the student and the Dept. of Education which needs to skim off money from the student loan repayments.


Hey, pal. First off, don't tamper with cash cows in a free market scenario. You'll be put on the militia's hit list

..but I'd say that the financial institutions won't be the big deal on "cutting out", you'll just have cut the cash cow for the schools of higher learning ..BIG TIME. They will then truly be at the mercy of the market.

 

[sciphi]

Gary, thanks for making me better state my thoughts.

Get smart, talented people interested in teaching, and more importantly, make it financially viable for them so they're not worried about food or student loan payments, and graduation rates "ought to" increase.

Not everyone left out of the American Dream is a lazy ne'er-do-well. Many of these people work just as hard as anybody else. Just that they are bringing a steak knife to an artillery duel in terms of their knowledge base. Some of these folks will end up living the good life because they found out one day what they didn't know, and most importantly, where to find out.

I'm sorry to hear your son was almost forced into that track at an age too young to decide a career by what sounds like some very callous action by school officials.
A return to acceptance of jobs that you work with your hands in would be beneficial, though. Then people who might not succeed initially in college can go out, get a good-paying job, and go back part-time if they feel like it.

With tuition increasing at many times the rate of inflation, letting some colleges and universities face the reality that they have to operate on a budget too and not just hit up their students for more money would be great.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I'm sorry to hear your son was almost forced into that track at an age too young to decide a career by what sounds like some very callous action by school officials.


It was basically them not saying, "Oh, btw, Mr. Allan, you do realize that your son will be sorted as a non-academically inclined student due to his performance here in elementary school.

A verbal beat down on him for dipping his paddle and them for not informing me got him place higher after he finished the marking period with vastly improved performance.

I didn't really care what path he wanted to take, I just wanted him to get the mathematical skills that are so essential to forming ways of thinking.

Quote:
A return to acceptance of jobs that you work with your hands in would be beneficial, though. Then people who might not succeed initially in college can go out, get a good-paying job, and go back part-time if they feel like it.


While learning never ends, education tends to be a career for the young ..but some manage it.

Our main problem is that we've got the mentality that you're either a suit or a blue collar type. We don't demand excellence in all things regardless of our future station.

 

[sciphi]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan


Our main problem is that we've got the mentality that you're either a suit or a blue collar type. We don't demand excellence in all things regardless of our future station.


Truth. If I'm reading it the way you meant it.

It's entirely possible to be a white-collar drone on the weekdays and a gearhead on the weekends.

 

[Gary Allan]

Suits surely can have their avocations. You don't get too many blue collar types exploring the liberal arts in their spare time. Joe Suit gets added levels of socialization and sophistication in his learning curve.

I've met a few pianists that were in human services to pay the bills. I've met few pianists that are wrenching to pay the bills (though a few rock musicians do). There are exceptions, surely.



If you're academically gifted (or above a certain average) you go to college. If you're below a given threshold you're offered vocations. I don't necessarily see where this always benefits the student who may be an excellent carpenter or machinist or mechanic while being gifted academically.

Vocational training tends to be where you go when you can't get into college.

 

[Kestas]

And this is where the discussion has gone full circle. It's the negative connotation that vocational schooling is for the dumber people who can't get into college, that gives this career path a bad name. It makes people feel like they're losers.

With colleges in a cash crunch and raising tuition beyond the rate of inflation, I see the academic bubble bursting, just like a lot of things have burst recently. Again, not everyone needs to go to college. The universities need to downsize and only prepare the professionals that society needs, and not produce the glut of professionals that we now have.

I understand that Germany has a strong system of technical schools that we consider vocational training. It works very well for them and for those that graduate. There is a strong demand for these people.

 

[Gary Allan]

No argument here, obviously.

We can admire the nordic nations for their sensible allocations of educational resources. This requires a society that intends to function as a society. It's counter to our clinging to our individuality and economic mobility. That is, you can polish a turd to plug into a slot with enough money.

 

[Mr Nice]

Quote:
There's nothing wrong with a person who isn't college material to seek vocational schooling. Vocational schools are incredibly underrated, yet so important to our economy and well-being as a country.

Vocational training like what ?????

 

[Gary Allan]

LT ..the majority of all tradespersons are going to either be dead or retired in the next 15 years. Who shall replace them? The business major that's selling shoes waiting for the boss to get canned or move on?

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
LT ..the majority of all tradespersons are going to either be dead or retired in the next 15 years. Who shall replace them?


Illegal aliens. That is part of the plan and it's why education in the trades isn't being pushed, or funded in public school, by the powers that be.

Everyone has to go to college now.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Quote:
There's nothing wrong with a person who isn't college material to seek vocational schooling. Vocational schools are incredibly underrated, yet so important to our economy and well-being as a country.

Vocational training like what ?????

Auto repair, construction, chef, nurse, dental hygienist, insurance agents, real estate agents, etc.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
LT ..the majority of all tradespersons are going to either be dead or retired in the next 15 years. Who shall replace them? The business major that's selling shoes waiting for the boss to get canned or move on?


They are replaced long before they retire or dead by the Chinese and Indian, and like Drew99GT said, illegal aliens. Sad but true.

 

[Gary Allan]

There's an Indian cashier at the local 7-11. He's starting his residency in oncology soon. In our discussions he brought up how soon there will be 1000 patients per doctor. He asks, "Who will care for these people" ..meaning the lay people to do all the "rest of the story". I immediately replied "Mexicans" ..which made him laugh out loud.