BMW 0W-20
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The smart money is on using the lightest oil specified.
This will minimize the main source of wear on start-up/warm-up while providing all the high temp' viscosity that's needed.
And if you don't track your car then you're not seeing the highest oil temp's that are possible; all the more reason to use the specified 0W-20 with complete piece of mind.
This will minimize the main source of wear on start-up/warm-up while providing all the high temp' viscosity that's needed.
And if you don't track your car then you're not seeing the highest oil temp's that are possible; all the more reason to use the specified 0W-20 with complete piece of mind.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
This will minimize the main source of wear on start-up/warm-up
How does it do that ?
Sequence IVA wear test is the industry standard warm-up wear, the oil is there, it's all flowing, so how does thinner oil help during warmup ?
(again)
Any parers that you can cite (that aren't adverts) ?
This will minimize the main source of wear on start-up/warm-up
How does it do that ?
Sequence IVA wear test is the industry standard warm-up wear, the oil is there, it's all flowing, so how does thinner oil help during warmup ?
(again)
Any parers that you can cite (that aren't adverts) ?
It's a given. There isn't an auto manufacturer or oil formulator that disagrees with what I've said; just you with your heavy oil bias.
The oil is not instantly there on a cold start as you claim.
The heavier the oil the slower the flow; hence the longer it takes to get initially to engine extremities such as the farthest cam lobe. And the reduced flow limits the engine rev's that can be used and still maintain hydrodynamic lubrication.
The oil is not instantly there on a cold start as you claim.
The heavier the oil the slower the flow; hence the longer it takes to get initially to engine extremities such as the farthest cam lobe. And the reduced flow limits the engine rev's that can be used and still maintain hydrodynamic lubrication.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The oil is not instantly there on a cold start as you claim.
There is still a LOT of oil there from last time the engine was run...if you've EVER pulled apart anythingyou will know that you get covered in the stuff. It's held in bearings and piston/ring areas by capillary action. Fact that you deny it means that you've not been inside too many engines.
And that oil is thick...It's providing significant oil film thicknesses due to that alone.
Yes, it needs to be replenished as soon as possible...and note, I have never "claimed it's there instantly...CATERHAM101 again, making false statements as to my position.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The heavier the oil the slower the flow; hence the longer it takes to get initially to engine extremities such as the farthest cam lobe.
I've demonstrated time and time again that when the oils are in their pumpable range, that they get there around the same time...what are they clearing out of the galleries ?...Air.
When the temperatures get cold enough that pumability is lessened, then a bettwe "W" grade is called for.
0W20 or SAE30 aren't going to change the time to the remote point at 10C...
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
And the reduced flow limits the engine rev's that can be used and still maintain hydrodynamic lubrication.
What ???
Again, you do not appear to understand the fundamentals of hydrodynamics.
The bearing draw from the galleries only that which they need to replace the side leakage...with thicker oils, they leak less (while displaying higher MOFTs...we crossed that Rubicon some posts back...you said my pic was 'nice" remember)...they leak less, they draw less, oil pressure goes up.
There's no loss of hydrodynamic lubrication due to lack of flow...there's reduced flow as the bearings simply don't need it.
If you are suggesting that the bearings are starving (those one that you've seen all over the track but can't identify to us), that's a pumpability failure, go back to thta point.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
It's a given. There isn't an auto manufacturer or oil formulator that disagrees with what I've said; just you with your heavy oil bias.
You keep getting your information from advertising puff pieces, which suggest pumpability under extreme conditions as a benefit of the 0W20 grade...you INTERPRET that as improved start up wear everywhere.
But anyway, the wear (again) occurs during warm-up, where the flow is already there and established for either 0W20 or 20W50, for 10-20 minutes...but you are fixated on the first 6 seconds which isn't where it happens...Why ?
The oil is not instantly there on a cold start as you claim.
There is still a LOT of oil there from last time the engine was run...if you've EVER pulled apart anythingyou will know that you get covered in the stuff. It's held in bearings and piston/ring areas by capillary action. Fact that you deny it means that you've not been inside too many engines.
And that oil is thick...It's providing significant oil film thicknesses due to that alone.
Yes, it needs to be replenished as soon as possible...and note, I have never "claimed it's there instantly...CATERHAM101 again, making false statements as to my position.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The heavier the oil the slower the flow; hence the longer it takes to get initially to engine extremities such as the farthest cam lobe.
I've demonstrated time and time again that when the oils are in their pumpable range, that they get there around the same time...what are they clearing out of the galleries ?...Air.
When the temperatures get cold enough that pumability is lessened, then a bettwe "W" grade is called for.
0W20 or SAE30 aren't going to change the time to the remote point at 10C...
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
And the reduced flow limits the engine rev's that can be used and still maintain hydrodynamic lubrication.
What ???
Again, you do not appear to understand the fundamentals of hydrodynamics.
The bearing draw from the galleries only that which they need to replace the side leakage...with thicker oils, they leak less (while displaying higher MOFTs...we crossed that Rubicon some posts back...you said my pic was 'nice" remember)...they leak less, they draw less, oil pressure goes up.
There's no loss of hydrodynamic lubrication due to lack of flow...there's reduced flow as the bearings simply don't need it.
If you are suggesting that the bearings are starving (those one that you've seen all over the track but can't identify to us), that's a pumpability failure, go back to thta point.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
It's a given. There isn't an auto manufacturer or oil formulator that disagrees with what I've said; just you with your heavy oil bias.
You keep getting your information from advertising puff pieces, which suggest pumpability under extreme conditions as a benefit of the 0W20 grade...you INTERPRET that as improved start up wear everywhere.
But anyway, the wear (again) occurs during warm-up, where the flow is already there and established for either 0W20 or 20W50, for 10-20 minutes...but you are fixated on the first 6 seconds which isn't where it happens...Why ?
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The smart money is on using the lightest oil specified.
This will minimize the main source of wear on start-up/warm-up while providing all the high temp' viscosity that's needed.
And if you don't track your car then you're not seeing the highest oil temp's that are possible; all the more reason to use the specified 0W-20 with complete piece of mind.
According to your argument then 0W40 is best bet. You get best of both worlds, light oil at start up, thick film at operating temperature.
Take into consideration that all these engines are still specd. for LL-01 in Europe and move to light oils happened once EPA issued new fleet MPG targets.
The smart money is on using the lightest oil specified.
This will minimize the main source of wear on start-up/warm-up while providing all the high temp' viscosity that's needed.
And if you don't track your car then you're not seeing the highest oil temp's that are possible; all the more reason to use the specified 0W-20 with complete piece of mind.
According to your argument then 0W40 is best bet. You get best of both worlds, light oil at start up, thick film at operating temperature.
Take into consideration that all these engines are still specd. for LL-01 in Europe and move to light oils happened once EPA issued new fleet MPG targets.
The pumpability argument is a false dichotomy, oil pumps are PD pumps, meaning as long as the oil is pump able, the same volume of oil is moved into the engine regardless of SAE grade. The return of the oil to the pan will be slower with thicker oils of course at the same temperatures but I have never heard of anyone running the oil pan dry on cold startup, and I have started trucks in-30 Arctic conditions.
The economy gains for 0w20 is its low level of friction loss from pumping it as well as low friction in bearings etc.
In some,applications I have no issue with it, my Toyota will live a line happy life on just about anything.
In other applications I don't see the point for the end user.
The economy gains for 0w20 is its low level of friction loss from pumping it as well as low friction in bearings etc.
In some,applications I have no issue with it, my Toyota will live a line happy life on just about anything.
In other applications I don't see the point for the end user.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
The pumpability argument is a false dichotomy, oil pumps are PD pumps, meaning as long as the oil is pump able, the same volume of oil is moved into the engine regardless of SAE grade.
Yes oil pumps are PD pumps but the rate of oil flow through an engine is entirely related to it's viscosity.
The higher oil back pressure that heavier oil grades generate is proof that less oil is flowing below the PRV setting.
And if the oil pump is in relief, which will happen even with a 0W-20 at room temperature at high rev's, oil flow is being further diverted in part back to the sump.
The pumpability argument is a false dichotomy, oil pumps are PD pumps, meaning as long as the oil is pump able, the same volume of oil is moved into the engine regardless of SAE grade.
Yes oil pumps are PD pumps but the rate of oil flow through an engine is entirely related to it's viscosity.
The higher oil back pressure that heavier oil grades generate is proof that less oil is flowing below the PRV setting.
And if the oil pump is in relief, which will happen even with a 0W-20 at room temperature at high rev's, oil flow is being further diverted in part back to the sump.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
The pumpability argument is a false dichotomy, oil pumps are PD pumps, meaning as long as the oil is pump able, the same volume of oil is moved into the engine regardless of SAE grade. The return of the oil to the pan will be slower with thicker oils of course at the same temperatures but I have never heard of anyone running the oil pan dry on cold startup, and I have started trucks in-30 Arctic conditions.
The economy gains for 0w20 is its low level of friction loss from pumping it as well as low friction in bearings etc.
In some,applications I have no issue with it, my Toyota will live a line happy life on just about anything.
In other applications I don't see the point for the end user.
Put SAE 20W50 in your BMW and start it in the morning sometimes in January in Durango and let us know how that works.
The pumpability argument is a false dichotomy, oil pumps are PD pumps, meaning as long as the oil is pump able, the same volume of oil is moved into the engine regardless of SAE grade. The return of the oil to the pan will be slower with thicker oils of course at the same temperatures but I have never heard of anyone running the oil pan dry on cold startup, and I have started trucks in-30 Arctic conditions.
The economy gains for 0w20 is its low level of friction loss from pumping it as well as low friction in bearings etc.
In some,applications I have no issue with it, my Toyota will live a line happy life on just about anything.
In other applications I don't see the point for the end user.
Put SAE 20W50 in your BMW and start it in the morning sometimes in January in Durango and let us know how that works.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The smart money is on using the lightest oil specified.
This will minimize the main source of wear on start-up/warm-up while providing all the high temp' viscosity that's needed.
And if you don't track your car then you're not seeing the highest oil temp's that are possible; all the more reason to use the specified 0W-20 with complete piece of mind.
According to your argument then 0W40 is best bet. You get best of both worlds, light oil at start up, thick film at operating temperature.
Take into consideration that all these engines are still specd. for LL-01 in Europe and move to light oils happened once EPA issued new fleet MPG targets.
A common newby mistake.
A 0W-20 and 0W-40 may be both 0W oils but a 0W-20 is much lighter than a 0W-40 at all typical start up temp's and the lightest 0W-20s will always have lower CCS and MRV spec's than the lightest 0W-40s.
There is no difference in the European and NA oil spec's. You can still use the cheaper LL-01 5W-30 and 0W-40 grades in the N20 four cyl engines if you want it just doesn't make any lubrication sense to do so.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The smart money is on using the lightest oil specified.
This will minimize the main source of wear on start-up/warm-up while providing all the high temp' viscosity that's needed.
And if you don't track your car then you're not seeing the highest oil temp's that are possible; all the more reason to use the specified 0W-20 with complete piece of mind.
According to your argument then 0W40 is best bet. You get best of both worlds, light oil at start up, thick film at operating temperature.
Take into consideration that all these engines are still specd. for LL-01 in Europe and move to light oils happened once EPA issued new fleet MPG targets.
A common newby mistake.
A 0W-20 and 0W-40 may be both 0W oils but a 0W-20 is much lighter than a 0W-40 at all typical start up temp's and the lightest 0W-20s will always have lower CCS and MRV spec's than the lightest 0W-40s.
There is no difference in the European and NA oil spec's. You can still use the cheaper LL-01 5W-30 and 0W-40 grades in the N20 four cyl engines if you want it just doesn't make any lubrication sense to do so.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
The pumpability argument is a false dichotomy, oil pumps are PD pumps, meaning as long as the oil is pump able, the same volume of oil is moved into the engine regardless of SAE grade. The return of the oil to the pan will be slower with thicker oils of course at the same temperatures but I have never heard of anyone running the oil pan dry on cold startup, and I have started trucks in-30 Arctic conditions.
The economy gains for 0w20 is its low level of friction loss from pumping it as well as low friction in bearings etc.
In some,applications I have no issue with it, my Toyota will live a line happy life on just about anything.
In other applications I don't see the point for the end user.
Put SAE 20W50 in your BMW and start it in the morning sometimes in January in Durango and let us know how that works.
No where did I state that you should use oils outside of the the oil grades performance recomendations. And who revs the engine at startup? ( what auto manufacturer recommends you cold start and run it hard? Without allowing it to come up to temperature??) These arguments are using extremes that are outside of normal use.
As always this is devolving into the old thick thin debate and I say the truth is somewhere in the middle. 0w20 is great and so are 40 weight oils. WHen the application is appropriate.
To be quite honest I trust the 0w20 more in a Toyota than a BMW. Admittadly it is a personal perception issue of how much I trust each automaker to provide a long term reliable automobile.
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
The pumpability argument is a false dichotomy, oil pumps are PD pumps, meaning as long as the oil is pump able, the same volume of oil is moved into the engine regardless of SAE grade. The return of the oil to the pan will be slower with thicker oils of course at the same temperatures but I have never heard of anyone running the oil pan dry on cold startup, and I have started trucks in-30 Arctic conditions.
The economy gains for 0w20 is its low level of friction loss from pumping it as well as low friction in bearings etc.
In some,applications I have no issue with it, my Toyota will live a line happy life on just about anything.
In other applications I don't see the point for the end user.
Put SAE 20W50 in your BMW and start it in the morning sometimes in January in Durango and let us know how that works.
No where did I state that you should use oils outside of the the oil grades performance recomendations. And who revs the engine at startup? ( what auto manufacturer recommends you cold start and run it hard? Without allowing it to come up to temperature??) These arguments are using extremes that are outside of normal use.
As always this is devolving into the old thick thin debate and I say the truth is somewhere in the middle. 0w20 is great and so are 40 weight oils. WHen the application is appropriate.
To be quite honest I trust the 0w20 more in a Toyota than a BMW. Admittadly it is a personal perception issue of how much I trust each automaker to provide a long term reliable automobile.
4WD
$50 site donor 2025
"PD" pumps are defined differently industry by industry. i.e.: volume per rotation with an an acceptable slip.
For what I do - our engineers need to know the exact amount pumped - so we would never use this style of pump that varies in efficiency - but lasts a long time in doing so.
Engine oil pumps do "slip" - I think this is correct:
Mechanical loss due to high vis.
Volumetric loss due to low vis.
So at startup - the pump (with pumpable oil) is working hard yet moving good flow - seems the debate here is how well does it cover critical parts after startup? (vs bipass the "plumbing")
I leave one vehicle parked 2-3 weeks at a time - but despite this debate going on for a while - I think the best I can do is listen to BL - and move to an oil that stays attached to the parts longer.
For what I do - our engineers need to know the exact amount pumped - so we would never use this style of pump that varies in efficiency - but lasts a long time in doing so.
Engine oil pumps do "slip" - I think this is correct:
Mechanical loss due to high vis.
Volumetric loss due to low vis.
So at startup - the pump (with pumpable oil) is working hard yet moving good flow - seems the debate here is how well does it cover critical parts after startup? (vs bipass the "plumbing")
I leave one vehicle parked 2-3 weeks at a time - but despite this debate going on for a while - I think the best I can do is listen to BL - and move to an oil that stays attached to the parts longer.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
As always this is devolving into the old thick thin debate and I say the truth is somewhere in the middle. 0w20 is great and so are 40 weight oils. WHen the application is appropriate.
To be quite honest I trust the 0w20 more in a Toyota than a BMW. Admittadly it is a personal perception issue of how much I trust each automaker to provide a long term reliable automobile.
+1
As always this is devolving into the old thick thin debate and I say the truth is somewhere in the middle. 0w20 is great and so are 40 weight oils. WHen the application is appropriate.
To be quite honest I trust the 0w20 more in a Toyota than a BMW. Admittadly it is a personal perception issue of how much I trust each automaker to provide a long term reliable automobile.
+1
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
As always this is devolving into the old thick thin debate and I say the truth is somewhere in the middle. 0w20 is great and so are 40 weight oils. WHen the application is appropriate.
To be quite honest I trust the 0w20 more in a Toyota than a BMW. Admittadly it is a personal perception issue of how much I trust each automaker to provide a long term reliable automobile.
+1
LOL, CATERHAM throws out his unsubstantiated (well incorrect) "facts", is called again to provide support that's not advertising puff, calls the objections "thick bias", and thus the thread gets labelled thick/thin debate.
I don't know why you people don't want to hold him to justify his statements, or is "feelings" more important than facts, and you "want to believe" ?
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
As always this is devolving into the old thick thin debate and I say the truth is somewhere in the middle. 0w20 is great and so are 40 weight oils. WHen the application is appropriate.
To be quite honest I trust the 0w20 more in a Toyota than a BMW. Admittadly it is a personal perception issue of how much I trust each automaker to provide a long term reliable automobile.
+1
LOL, CATERHAM throws out his unsubstantiated (well incorrect) "facts", is called again to provide support that's not advertising puff, calls the objections "thick bias", and thus the thread gets labelled thick/thin debate.
I don't know why you people don't want to hold him to justify his statements, or is "feelings" more important than facts, and you "want to believe" ?
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The smart money is on using the lightest oil specified.
This will minimize the main source of wear on start-up/warm-up while providing all the high temp' viscosity that's needed.
And if you don't track your car then you're not seeing the highest oil temp's that are possible; all the more reason to use the specified 0W-20 with complete piece of mind.
According to your argument then 0W40 is best bet. You get best of both worlds, light oil at start up, thick film at operating temperature.
Take into consideration that all these engines are still specd. for LL-01 in Europe and move to light oils happened once EPA issued new fleet MPG targets.
A common newby mistake.
A 0W-20 and 0W-40 may be both 0W oils but a 0W-20 is much lighter than a 0W-40 at all typical start up temp's and the lightest 0W-20s will always have lower CCS and MRV spec's than the lightest 0W-40s.
There is no difference in the European and NA oil spec's. You can still use the cheaper LL-01 5W-30 and 0W-40 grades in the N20 four cyl engines if you want it just doesn't make any lubrication sense to do so.
What is that HUGE difference in CCS and MRV between 0W40 and 0W20? There is substantial difference between ALL 0W20 and ALL 0W40? Also, considering composition of Castrol 0W40 for example, it will out do on cold start ANY 0W20 that does not have Esters in it, for the simple fact that esters are polar (and Catsrol 0W40 has substantial amount of esters).
So, it is not only 0W20 or 0W40 or 0W30, it is much more complex then that. There is actually difference in pour point between old M1 0W40 and Castrol 0W40, a difference in pour point of 14 degrees C. There is similar difference in CCS and MRV. What I want to say is that you might put 0W20 in, but due to composition both CCS and MRV might be on the side of 0W40.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The smart money is on using the lightest oil specified.
This will minimize the main source of wear on start-up/warm-up while providing all the high temp' viscosity that's needed.
And if you don't track your car then you're not seeing the highest oil temp's that are possible; all the more reason to use the specified 0W-20 with complete piece of mind.
According to your argument then 0W40 is best bet. You get best of both worlds, light oil at start up, thick film at operating temperature.
Take into consideration that all these engines are still specd. for LL-01 in Europe and move to light oils happened once EPA issued new fleet MPG targets.
A common newby mistake.
A 0W-20 and 0W-40 may be both 0W oils but a 0W-20 is much lighter than a 0W-40 at all typical start up temp's and the lightest 0W-20s will always have lower CCS and MRV spec's than the lightest 0W-40s.
There is no difference in the European and NA oil spec's. You can still use the cheaper LL-01 5W-30 and 0W-40 grades in the N20 four cyl engines if you want it just doesn't make any lubrication sense to do so.
What is that HUGE difference in CCS and MRV between 0W40 and 0W20? There is substantial difference between ALL 0W20 and ALL 0W40? Also, considering composition of Castrol 0W40 for example, it will out do on cold start ANY 0W20 that does not have Esters in it, for the simple fact that esters are polar (and Catsrol 0W40 has substantial amount of esters).
So, it is not only 0W20 or 0W40 or 0W30, it is much more complex then that. There is actually difference in pour point between old M1 0W40 and Castrol 0W40, a difference in pour point of 14 degrees C. There is similar difference in CCS and MRV. What I want to say is that you might put 0W20 in, but due to composition both CCS and MRV might be on the side of 0W40.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
The pumpability argument is a false dichotomy, oil pumps are PD pumps, meaning as long as the oil is pump able, the same volume of oil is moved into the engine regardless of SAE grade. The return of the oil to the pan will be slower with thicker oils of course at the same temperatures but I have never heard of anyone running the oil pan dry on cold startup, and I have started trucks in-30 Arctic conditions.
The economy gains for 0w20 is its low level of friction loss from pumping it as well as low friction in bearings etc.
In some,applications I have no issue with it, my Toyota will live a line happy life on just about anything.
In other applications I don't see the point for the end user.
Put SAE 20W50 in your BMW and start it in the morning sometimes in January in Durango and let us know how that works.
No where did I state that you should use oils outside of the the oil grades performance recomendations. And who revs the engine at startup? ( what auto manufacturer recommends you cold start and run it hard? Without allowing it to come up to temperature??) These arguments are using extremes that are outside of normal use.
As always this is devolving into the old thick thin debate and I say the truth is somewhere in the middle. 0w20 is great and so are 40 weight oils. WHen the application is appropriate.
To be quite honest I trust the 0w20 more in a Toyota than a BMW. Admittadly it is a personal perception issue of how much I trust each automaker to provide a long term reliable automobile.
What is normal use? For me starting car on -35 or -40 is actually normal use. BMW design cars first and foremost for auto bahns not NA interstates. In N20 in EU LL-01 is still recommended oil and there is good reason for that, because those cars are running 120-130mph all the time if not even more.
As for temperature, yes, that is why BMW put oil temperature gauge in F series. However, honestly, 90% of BMW buyers, especially newcomers attracted by F series suspension really do not have a clue about oils, temperature etc. Part of the reason why BMW is pushing 0W20 is that most of owners of BMW in NA really do not care about all this stuff, so by having 0W in engine and then very light weight at 100c is actually good for second owner of that BMW once it comes from lease. However, in N20, my choice would be always 0W40 or even Castrol 0W30 (if you can find on sale in AZ or NAPA).
Toyota is doing same thing. In USA 0W20, in EU very often even 5W40.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
The pumpability argument is a false dichotomy, oil pumps are PD pumps, meaning as long as the oil is pump able, the same volume of oil is moved into the engine regardless of SAE grade. The return of the oil to the pan will be slower with thicker oils of course at the same temperatures but I have never heard of anyone running the oil pan dry on cold startup, and I have started trucks in-30 Arctic conditions.
The economy gains for 0w20 is its low level of friction loss from pumping it as well as low friction in bearings etc.
In some,applications I have no issue with it, my Toyota will live a line happy life on just about anything.
In other applications I don't see the point for the end user.
Put SAE 20W50 in your BMW and start it in the morning sometimes in January in Durango and let us know how that works.
No where did I state that you should use oils outside of the the oil grades performance recomendations. And who revs the engine at startup? ( what auto manufacturer recommends you cold start and run it hard? Without allowing it to come up to temperature??) These arguments are using extremes that are outside of normal use.
As always this is devolving into the old thick thin debate and I say the truth is somewhere in the middle. 0w20 is great and so are 40 weight oils. WHen the application is appropriate.
To be quite honest I trust the 0w20 more in a Toyota than a BMW. Admittadly it is a personal perception issue of how much I trust each automaker to provide a long term reliable automobile.
What is normal use? For me starting car on -35 or -40 is actually normal use. BMW design cars first and foremost for auto bahns not NA interstates. In N20 in EU LL-01 is still recommended oil and there is good reason for that, because those cars are running 120-130mph all the time if not even more.
As for temperature, yes, that is why BMW put oil temperature gauge in F series. However, honestly, 90% of BMW buyers, especially newcomers attracted by F series suspension really do not have a clue about oils, temperature etc. Part of the reason why BMW is pushing 0W20 is that most of owners of BMW in NA really do not care about all this stuff, so by having 0W in engine and then very light weight at 100c is actually good for second owner of that BMW once it comes from lease. However, in N20, my choice would be always 0W40 or even Castrol 0W30 (if you can find on sale in AZ or NAPA).
Toyota is doing same thing. In USA 0W20, in EU very often even 5W40.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
The pumpability argument is a false dichotomy, oil pumps are PD pumps, meaning as long as the oil is pump able, the same volume of oil is moved into the engine regardless of SAE grade. The return of the oil to the pan will be slower with thicker oils of course at the same temperatures but I have never heard of anyone running the oil pan dry on cold startup, and I have started trucks in-30 Arctic conditions.
The economy gains for 0w20 is its low level of friction loss from pumping it as well as low friction in bearings etc.
In some,applications I have no issue with it, my Toyota will live a line happy life on just about anything.
In other applications I don't see the point for the end user.
Put SAE 20W50 in your BMW and start it in the morning sometimes in January in Durango and let us know how that works.
No where did I state that you should use oils outside of the the oil grades performance recomendations. And who revs the engine at startup? ( what auto manufacturer recommends you cold start and run it hard? Without allowing it to come up to temperature??) These arguments are using extremes that are outside of normal use.
As always this is devolving into the old thick thin debate and I say the truth is somewhere in the middle. 0w20 is great and so are 40 weight oils. WHen the application is appropriate.
To be quite honest I trust the 0w20 more in a Toyota than a BMW. Admittadly it is a personal perception issue of how much I trust each automaker to provide a long term reliable automobile.
What is normal use? For me starting car on -35 or -40 is actually normal use. BMW design cars first and foremost for auto bahns not NA interstates. In N20 in EU LL-01 is still recommended oil and there is good reason for that, because those cars are running 120-130mph all the time if not even more.
As for temperature, yes, that is why BMW put oil temperature gauge in F series. However, honestly, 90% of BMW buyers, especially newcomers attracted by F series suspension really do not have a clue about oils, temperature etc. Part of the reason why BMW is pushing 0W20 is that most of owners of BMW in NA really do not care about all this stuff, so by having 0W in engine and then very light weight at 100c is actually good for second owner of that BMW once it comes from lease. However, in N20, my choice would be always 0W40 or even Castrol 0W30 (if you can find on sale in AZ or NAPA).
Toyota is doing same thing. In USA 0W20, in EU very often even 5W40.
so what is the beef? I sense a lot of conflict in this thread but also a lot of confused justifications.
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
The pumpability argument is a false dichotomy, oil pumps are PD pumps, meaning as long as the oil is pump able, the same volume of oil is moved into the engine regardless of SAE grade. The return of the oil to the pan will be slower with thicker oils of course at the same temperatures but I have never heard of anyone running the oil pan dry on cold startup, and I have started trucks in-30 Arctic conditions.
The economy gains for 0w20 is its low level of friction loss from pumping it as well as low friction in bearings etc.
In some,applications I have no issue with it, my Toyota will live a line happy life on just about anything.
In other applications I don't see the point for the end user.
Put SAE 20W50 in your BMW and start it in the morning sometimes in January in Durango and let us know how that works.
No where did I state that you should use oils outside of the the oil grades performance recomendations. And who revs the engine at startup? ( what auto manufacturer recommends you cold start and run it hard? Without allowing it to come up to temperature??) These arguments are using extremes that are outside of normal use.
As always this is devolving into the old thick thin debate and I say the truth is somewhere in the middle. 0w20 is great and so are 40 weight oils. WHen the application is appropriate.
To be quite honest I trust the 0w20 more in a Toyota than a BMW. Admittadly it is a personal perception issue of how much I trust each automaker to provide a long term reliable automobile.
What is normal use? For me starting car on -35 or -40 is actually normal use. BMW design cars first and foremost for auto bahns not NA interstates. In N20 in EU LL-01 is still recommended oil and there is good reason for that, because those cars are running 120-130mph all the time if not even more.
As for temperature, yes, that is why BMW put oil temperature gauge in F series. However, honestly, 90% of BMW buyers, especially newcomers attracted by F series suspension really do not have a clue about oils, temperature etc. Part of the reason why BMW is pushing 0W20 is that most of owners of BMW in NA really do not care about all this stuff, so by having 0W in engine and then very light weight at 100c is actually good for second owner of that BMW once it comes from lease. However, in N20, my choice would be always 0W40 or even Castrol 0W30 (if you can find on sale in AZ or NAPA).
Toyota is doing same thing. In USA 0W20, in EU very often even 5W40.
so what is the beef? I sense a lot of conflict in this thread but also a lot of confused justifications.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: ebyvw
However, honestly, 90% of BMW buyers, especially newcomers attracted by F series suspension really do not have a clue about oils, temperature etc. Part of the reason why BMW is pushing 0W20 is that most of owners of BMW in NA really do not care about all this stuff...
Exactly
However, honestly, 90% of BMW buyers, especially newcomers attracted by F series suspension really do not have a clue about oils, temperature etc. Part of the reason why BMW is pushing 0W20 is that most of owners of BMW in NA really do not care about all this stuff...
Exactly
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Quote:
so what is the beef? I sense a lot of conflict in this thread but also a lot of confused justifications.
OK, to make it short:
- Drive BMW like BMW should be driven: 0W40, 0W30, any LL-01 .
2. Drive BMW like Lexus, well, do whatever factory says.
so what is the beef? I sense a lot of conflict in this thread but also a lot of confused justifications.
OK, to make it short:
- Drive BMW like BMW should be driven: 0W40, 0W30, any LL-01 .
2. Drive BMW like Lexus, well, do whatever factory says.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
The pumpability argument is a false dichotomy, oil pumps are PD pumps, meaning as long as the oil is pump able, the same volume of oil is moved into the engine regardless of SAE grade.
Yes oil pumps are PD pumps but the rate of oil flow through an engine is entirely related to it's viscosity.
The higher oil back pressure that heavier oil grades generate is proof that less oil is flowing below the PRV setting.
You can't have the constant volume of a PD pump and reduced flow with increasing viscosity. Thermodynamics requires conservation of mass. In the real world, the higher oil pressure observed with more viscous oils is proof that the same volume of oil is being moved against the resistance of the engine.
Ed
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
The pumpability argument is a false dichotomy, oil pumps are PD pumps, meaning as long as the oil is pump able, the same volume of oil is moved into the engine regardless of SAE grade.
Yes oil pumps are PD pumps but the rate of oil flow through an engine is entirely related to it's viscosity.
The higher oil back pressure that heavier oil grades generate is proof that less oil is flowing below the PRV setting.
You can't have the constant volume of a PD pump and reduced flow with increasing viscosity. Thermodynamics requires conservation of mass. In the real world, the higher oil pressure observed with more viscous oils is proof that the same volume of oil is being moved against the resistance of the engine.
Ed
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