If CAFE/stringent fuel economy/emissions requirements didn't exist....would 0W-8/16/20 exist?

[fdcg27]

It ain't just CAFE.
Improved fuel economy is always desirable, at least to some of us.
As engines and oils have developed, thinner grades can provide enough protection to enable long engine life.
I really doubt that Toyota reduced its engine life targets to allow the use of 0W-8. Rather, the oil itself has improved as has the detail design of the engine and its lubrication system.

 

[SC Maintenance]

To answer the question in your title. It's unlikely because we probably would not have fuel injection and would still be using conventional oil on 3k mile oci.

Unlikely - just like we have lifetime transmission fluid, etc. People don't like doing maintenance.

It's universal presence would be delayed, for sure. The first computer many people owned came in a car they purchased in the 1980s. Would we eventually have electronic (port) fuel injection? Probably, but there would also be cheapo carbureted third world cars being imported if we lived without rules. Would the thrifty still be driving diesel Rabbits?

Look at the comparatively unregulated world of motorcycles and power equipment-- injection did eventually come, albeit much later, and not universally. But of course it had the parts bin and R&D from cars to draw from.

I disagree we would have fuel injection because it not only uses less fuel, but makes more power and ensures the engine lasts longer. There is EFI in lots of off road applications, like dirt bikes, and has been for years.

We may not have catalytic converters.

Even assuming no rules anywhere, I do think we would likely still eventually have these thinner oils - some people like to save fuel. You would have an engine oil table that went from 0W-16 to 15W-40 as being acceptable - like the Toyota Engines sold into Australia for example.

 

[TurboZedd-R]

Anything under 20 bad. Big HTHS = good.

 

[TiGeo]

 

[Hall]

As engines and oils have developed, thinner grades can provide enough protection to enable long engine life.

There's still many that refuse to accept this as fact. If an engine lasts 350k miles on 0W-16, others would argue (with zero merit or proof) that it could have lasted 500k or more miles.

 

[eljefino]

Unlikely - just like we have lifetime transmission fluid, etc. People don't like doing maintenance.

I disagree we would have fuel injection because it not only uses less fuel, but makes more power and ensures the engine lasts longer. There is EFI in lots of off road applications, like dirt bikes, and has been for years.

True, but for decades they've been trying to squeeze more from a drop of fuel so stuff like PCMs and their processors were subsidized by a desire to put them in everything, and the ROI was better because they had to put them in everything. Injection could easily be dirty yet high performing if they didn't have a lambda sensor because they didn't want to pay to license it from Bosch.

 

[PandaBear]

If people were smarter, they’d burn CNG in their ICE vehicles instead of burning CNG in a power plant to charge their EVs.

But then, there would be nothing to protest.

CNG is not easy to carry around. I know the Honda CNG civic used to only have 15 years of tank life and afterward a new tank is as expensive as a hybrid battery. Plus you need to wait in line behind those garbage trucks and buses to pump in very few locations around here.

About CAFE, maybe it will change how US buyers buy vehicles but not internationally. Eventually they will figure out what to do to give customers what they want: either bigger cars or better fuel economy, by all mean.

 

[cptbarkey]

View attachment 271202

bingo post #1

 

[SC Maintenance]

CNG is not easy to carry around. I know the Honda CNG civic used to only have 15 years of tank life and afterward a new tank is as expensive as a hybrid battery. Plus you need to wait in line behind those garbage trucks and buses to pump in very few locations around here.

About CAFE, maybe it will change how US buyers buy vehicles but not internationally. Eventually they will figure out what to do to give customers what they want: either bigger cars or better fuel economy, by all mean.

Not how it works. Closed loop controls have migrated into everything. Industrial, process, HVAC. Processors became cheap not based on automotive use but on everything - smart blenders are even a thing. So closed loop became affordable. Closed loop is always better than open loop. So if Ford and GM refused to go that route, it would be just like Toyota showing up in the late 70's with a better mouse trap, and they would have captured even more share.

Technology always wins in the end.

 

[PandaBear]

Not how it works. Closed loop controls have migrated into everything. Industrial, process, HVAC. Processors became cheap not based on automotive use but on everything - smart blenders are even a thing. So closed loop became affordable. Closed loop is always better than open loop. So if Ford and GM refused to go that route, it would be just like Toyota showing up in the late 70's with a better mouse trap, and they would have captured even more share.

Technology always wins in the end.

Not disagreeing with you. I think it is a matter of time before everything is close loop controlled, but the point is, will we have these extreme engine tech like HCCI, direct injection, drive by wire, etc without CAFE.

My answer is, maybe not that soon in the US. Mazda's HCCI doesn't come to the US, many small turbo engine didn't come until like 10 years after they became popular in Europe and Japan. It doesn't mean auto industry won't eventually get there, just later.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Not disagreeing with you. I think it is a matter of time before everything is close loop controlled, but the point is, will we have these extreme engine tech like HCCI, direct injection, drive by wire, etc without CAFE.

My answer is, maybe not that soon in the US. Mazda's HCCI doesn't come to the US, many small turbo engine didn't come until like 10 years after they became popular in Europe and Japan. It doesn't mean auto industry won't eventually get there, just later.

It undoubtedly may take longer. But that wasn't the comment - it was that we would still be running carbs.

Some things would be sooner than others. For example throttle by wire was done because its cheaper - an el cheapo servo motor in the TB is cheaper than a linkage. Cheaper to make, cheaper to install on an assembly line. Electric power steering. Electric water pumps - same thing.

Direct injection existed in Diesels since forever. I am not 100% sure there really all that better for Gasoline TBH. Were getting into squeezing the last 5% of efficiency out - which is usually not worth the cost. My Toyota has both MPI and GDI. No way that pays for itself ever.

We may have saved ourselves some problems at the same time - like cylinder de-activation.

Speculation on specifics, but closed loop control was coming either way.

 

[bighead2586]

View attachment 271202

LOL nice chart and very true from my limited time on these fora. I think you could replace the "Mobil 1 0W40 in everything of course" to Mobil 1 ESP 0W30.

 

[TomYoung]

This was a very clumsy setup for a very obvious thick v thin thread. When Kschachn is the first to respond, you’re toast. You should have posed this as an alternate history question. “How would the world look if the Russians were first on the Moon?” Then go into a riff about Neil Armstrong being appointed to run CAFE, but shuts it down to eventually focus on the Mars Mission. Oh, and his son dies in a bicycle accident while he’s in space. In a dream sequence, on the way to Mars, he imagines a world where CAFE had continued.

 

[TiGeo]

LOL nice chart and very true from my limited time on these fora. I think you could replace the "Mobil 1 0W40 in everything of course" to Mobil 1 ESP 0W30.

I think you're right. Going forward M1 ESP 0W30 it is! Even the thickies are thinning it out...BLASTED CAFE!

 

[ATex7239]

I think you're right. Going forward M1 ESP 0W30 it is! Even the thickies are thinning it out...BLASTED CAFE!

My fav was when 0W8 start hitting threads and I saw so many recommendations to use 0W20 and even 0W16 instead. CAFE got 16 and 20 into the thickie boys club.

 

[TiGeo]

My fav was when 0W8 start hitting threads and I saw so many recommendations to use 0W20 and even 0W16 instead. CAFE got 16 and 20 into the thickie boys club.

It's similar to 11....1 more than 10.

 

[CharlieJ]

The "20" viscosity oil existed before CAFE. There is a member here who used it and it was Mobil1, if I recall correctly. Now, the 8 and 16 viscosity oils, they probably wouldn't be used in road cars if CAFE didn't exist. That's just my guess.

 

[ka9mnx]

Even the thickies are thinning it out...

ESP 0w-30 and Euro 0w-40 have the same HTHS specs...

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Unlikely - just like we have lifetime transmission fluid, etc. People don't like doing maintenance.

Perhaps. I just can't think of any drivetrain technology which wasn't given a push by the regulators to implement either for emissions or conservation reasons.

 

[kschachn]

ESP 0w-30 and Euro 0w-40 have the same HTHS specs...

Due to some of the approvals the oils hold they would have the same minimum HT/HS but that doesn't mean the oils have the same value. ExxonMobil publishes slightly different typical values for the two.