Amsoil & Certifications
- Thread starter buster
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That's why I said most people don't know/care...we here are in the vast minority.
Of those that do care to some degree, when they ask me "which oil", I ask "what does the manual say ?", and they haven't even looked to see what viscosity, let alone other actual ratings.
They would be the logical AMSOIL customer, if AMsoil said "this one is the absolute best oilfor your car, and we guarantee it"
Of those that do care to some degree, when they ask me "which oil", I ask "what does the manual say ?", and they haven't even looked to see what viscosity, let alone other actual ratings.
They would be the logical AMSOIL customer, if AMsoil said "this one is the absolute best oilfor your car, and we guarantee it"
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Just to be clear I am not saying any particular segment is the majority or anything. Just pointing out a lot of people do actually care is all.
Understood - that's why I agree with both of you.
Heck, even my thought process on oils isn't always the same. I run my SN/GF-5 PYB in G under warranty. I'd be lying if I said I have never been tempted to try some old SL RP 5w-30 in it, even now, still under warranty.
Just to be clear I am not saying any particular segment is the majority or anything. Just pointing out a lot of people do actually care is all.
Understood - that's why I agree with both of you.
Heck, even my thought process on oils isn't always the same. I run my SN/GF-5 PYB in G under warranty. I'd be lying if I said I have never been tempted to try some old SL RP 5w-30 in it, even now, still under warranty.
Buster,
I said earlier that I could 'guarantee' that Amsoil's SS oils actually do meet API SN/GF-5 specs. Your response was I couldn;t guarantee anything.
Check out the latest PQIA tests (just posted) where Amsoil SS 5W-30 was tested, and in black a whilte PQIA states it meets all the requirements for these certifications. It points out they aren't actually certified, but that they do meet them.
Unless, of course, you are now going to call into question the results of PQIA's testing?
I would like to hear your opinion on this, b/c you clearly stated you didn't think they could pass, and you are wrong, as verified by an independant third party.
I said earlier that I could 'guarantee' that Amsoil's SS oils actually do meet API SN/GF-5 specs. Your response was I couldn;t guarantee anything.
Check out the latest PQIA tests (just posted) where Amsoil SS 5W-30 was tested, and in black a whilte PQIA states it meets all the requirements for these certifications. It points out they aren't actually certified, but that they do meet them.
Unless, of course, you are now going to call into question the results of PQIA's testing?
I would like to hear your opinion on this, b/c you clearly stated you didn't think they could pass, and you are wrong, as verified by an independant third party.
Originally Posted By: addyguy
Check out the latest PQIA tests (just posted) where Amsoil SS 5W-30 was tested, and in black a whilte PQIA states it meets all the requirements for these certifications. It points out they aren't actually certified, but that they do meet them.
I can't completely answer for Buster, but in fairness to him, he did mention the recent PQIA test in his very first post in this thread. So, he should be aware it meets the standards. Amsoil doesn't wish to certify it. Plenty of oil companies don't want to certify many (or any) products for dexos1. That's up to them.
I still like the product dilution aspect. Why would I pay, say, $13 a litre for SS if it's SN/GF-5 and I have to change it at my manufacturer's interval of 3750 miles? If I want SN/GF-5, I'll go elsewhere, and much cheaper.
Check out the latest PQIA tests (just posted) where Amsoil SS 5W-30 was tested, and in black a whilte PQIA states it meets all the requirements for these certifications. It points out they aren't actually certified, but that they do meet them.
I can't completely answer for Buster, but in fairness to him, he did mention the recent PQIA test in his very first post in this thread. So, he should be aware it meets the standards. Amsoil doesn't wish to certify it. Plenty of oil companies don't want to certify many (or any) products for dexos1. That's up to them.
I still like the product dilution aspect. Why would I pay, say, $13 a litre for SS if it's SN/GF-5 and I have to change it at my manufacturer's interval of 3750 miles? If I want SN/GF-5, I'll go elsewhere, and much cheaper.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
They don't want EVERYONE'S business.
Exactly. They're not interested in competing with the likes of ExxonMobil as that would require massive resources. Instead, Amsoil has carved out a niche for themselves where they (Amsoil) and ExxonMobil can co-exist without stepping on each other's toes too much. It's all well thought out, me thinks. The customer that only cares about an API logo is just going to buy the cheapest oil that carries it. That is not the type of customer that Amsoil is after.
Then why did they bother with OE? Certainly they wanted to expand and capture more of the oil buying market. If they didn't they would have stuck with XL, and never came out with OE to compete with the cheaper oil. JMO
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
They don't want EVERYONE'S business.
Exactly. They're not interested in competing with the likes of ExxonMobil as that would require massive resources. Instead, Amsoil has carved out a niche for themselves where they (Amsoil) and ExxonMobil can co-exist without stepping on each other's toes too much. It's all well thought out, me thinks. The customer that only cares about an API logo is just going to buy the cheapest oil that carries it. That is not the type of customer that Amsoil is after.
Then why did they bother with OE? Certainly they wanted to expand and capture more of the oil buying market. If they didn't they would have stuck with XL, and never came out with OE to compete with the cheaper oil. JMO
Is it possible that the high detergent levels in oils like ASL push them over the total ash limit to be certified?
Originally Posted By: Gene K
Is it possible that the high detergent levels in oils like ASL push them over the total ash limit to be certified?
According to the latest PQIA test, they're not that high.
Is it possible that the high detergent levels in oils like ASL push them over the total ash limit to be certified?
According to the latest PQIA test, they're not that high.
Originally Posted By: addyguy
Check out the latest PQIA tests (just posted) where Amsoil SS 5W-30 was tested, and in black a whilte PQIA states it meets all the requirements for these certifications. It points out they aren't actually certified, but that they do meet them.
Just to be clear, PQIA does not state that any oil "meets all of the requirements for these certifications." Their actual statement is:
"The results of the tests conducted on this sample meet the requirements of an API SN and ILSAC GF-5, SAE 5W-30 Engine oil."
PQIA is speaking only to the results of the tests that they conducted. Full compliance with SN and GF-5 requires a lot more tests than the ones PQIA runs, including hundreds of thousands of dollars in engine tests. PQIA clarifies this by stating the following for each oil:
"The American Petroleum Institute sets forth a number of laboratory and engine tests required to meet an API SN ILSAC GF-5 performance specification. Although laboratory tests alone cannot be used to establish if an engine oil meets API SN, they can be used to determine if it doesn't."
The tests that PQIA runs are selected to catch many types of failures, but clearly they cannot run a full suite of specification tests.
Tom NJ
Note: While I am an unpaid Advisor to PQIA, my posts on BITOG represent my personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the opinions and positions of PQIA.
Check out the latest PQIA tests (just posted) where Amsoil SS 5W-30 was tested, and in black a whilte PQIA states it meets all the requirements for these certifications. It points out they aren't actually certified, but that they do meet them.
Just to be clear, PQIA does not state that any oil "meets all of the requirements for these certifications." Their actual statement is:
"The results of the tests conducted on this sample meet the requirements of an API SN and ILSAC GF-5, SAE 5W-30 Engine oil."
PQIA is speaking only to the results of the tests that they conducted. Full compliance with SN and GF-5 requires a lot more tests than the ones PQIA runs, including hundreds of thousands of dollars in engine tests. PQIA clarifies this by stating the following for each oil:
"The American Petroleum Institute sets forth a number of laboratory and engine tests required to meet an API SN ILSAC GF-5 performance specification. Although laboratory tests alone cannot be used to establish if an engine oil meets API SN, they can be used to determine if it doesn't."
The tests that PQIA runs are selected to catch many types of failures, but clearly they cannot run a full suite of specification tests.
Tom NJ
Note: While I am an unpaid Advisor to PQIA, my posts on BITOG represent my personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the opinions and positions of PQIA.
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
PQIA is speaking only to the results of the tests that they conducted. Full compliance with SN and GF-5 requires a lot more tests than the ones PQIA runs, including hundreds of thousands of dollars in engine tests. PQIA clarifies this by stating the following for each oil:
Thanks for that clarification, Tom!
PQIA is speaking only to the results of the tests that they conducted. Full compliance with SN and GF-5 requires a lot more tests than the ones PQIA runs, including hundreds of thousands of dollars in engine tests. PQIA clarifies this by stating the following for each oil:
Thanks for that clarification, Tom!
Originally Posted By: Gene K
Is it possible that the high detergent levels in oils like ASL push them over the total ash limit to be certified?
yes. They have to fall in line to survive.
Is it possible that the high detergent levels in oils like ASL push them over the total ash limit to be certified?
yes. They have to fall in line to survive.
ACEA European Performance Standards
per ACEA 2008 Standards)
Peugeot TU5JP-L4
Peugeot I4 engine, high temp/high speed
Piston cleanliness, viscosity increase
Sequence VG
Ford V8 engine, low-med temp/low-med speed
Sludge formation, piston cleanliness
Peugeot TU3M
Peugeot I4 engine, low-med temp/low-med speed
Valve train wear
M111 (Sludge)
Mercedes I4 engine, multi temp/multi speed
Sludge formation, piston cleanliness, valve train wear
M111 (Fuel Economy)
Mercedes I4 engine, multi temp/multi speed
Fuel economy versus reference oil
VW TDi2
Volkswagen I4 turbodiesel engine, high temp/high speed
Piston cleanliness
Peugeot DV4TD
Peugeot I4 turbodiesel engine, high temp/med speed
Viscosity increase (due to soot thickening)
OM646LA
Mercedes I4 turbodiesel engine, multi temp/multi speed
Valve train wear, cylinder wear, viscosity increase, oil consumption
Sequence IIIG
GM V6 engine, high temp/high speed, high load
Oil thickening, piston cleanliness, valve train wear
Sequence VG
Ford V8 engine, low-med temp/low-med speed
Sludge formation, piston cleanliness
Sequence IVA
Nissan I4 engine, low temp/low-med speed
Valve train wear
Sequence VIII
1-cyl test engine, high temp/med-high speed
Bearing corrosion protection, oil shear stability
Sequence VID
GM 3.6L V6 engine, multiple speeds / temps
Fuel economy versus reference oil
Sequence IIIGA
GM V6 engine, high temp/high speed, high load
Low temp flow (pumpability) at end of IIIG test
Sequence IIIGB
GM V6 engine, high temp/high speed, high load
Phosphorus retention (volatility) at end of IIIG test
Chemical Properties
Lab Test
Specific physical / chemical properties per viscosity grade (SAE J300)
Gelation Index
Lab Test
Low temp gel formation
MRV
Lab Test
Low temp flow (pumpability) - fresh oil
TEOST MHT, 33C
Lab Test
High temperature deposits
Foam Control
Lab Test
Foaming Tendency / Stability
ROBO
Lab Test
Low temp flow (pumpability) of aged oil
Ball Rust Test
Lab Test
Anti-rust capability
Emulsion Retention
Lab Test
Emulsion retention when biofuels (E85) are used
Oil / Elastomer Compatibility
Lab Test
Hardness, Elongation, Volume, Tensile changes
per ACEA 2008 Standards)
Peugeot TU5JP-L4
Peugeot I4 engine, high temp/high speed
Piston cleanliness, viscosity increase
Sequence VG
Ford V8 engine, low-med temp/low-med speed
Sludge formation, piston cleanliness
Peugeot TU3M
Peugeot I4 engine, low-med temp/low-med speed
Valve train wear
M111 (Sludge)
Mercedes I4 engine, multi temp/multi speed
Sludge formation, piston cleanliness, valve train wear
M111 (Fuel Economy)
Mercedes I4 engine, multi temp/multi speed
Fuel economy versus reference oil
VW TDi2
Volkswagen I4 turbodiesel engine, high temp/high speed
Piston cleanliness
Peugeot DV4TD
Peugeot I4 turbodiesel engine, high temp/med speed
Viscosity increase (due to soot thickening)
OM646LA
Mercedes I4 turbodiesel engine, multi temp/multi speed
Valve train wear, cylinder wear, viscosity increase, oil consumption
Sequence IIIG
GM V6 engine, high temp/high speed, high load
Oil thickening, piston cleanliness, valve train wear
Sequence VG
Ford V8 engine, low-med temp/low-med speed
Sludge formation, piston cleanliness
Sequence IVA
Nissan I4 engine, low temp/low-med speed
Valve train wear
Sequence VIII
1-cyl test engine, high temp/med-high speed
Bearing corrosion protection, oil shear stability
Sequence VID
GM 3.6L V6 engine, multiple speeds / temps
Fuel economy versus reference oil
Sequence IIIGA
GM V6 engine, high temp/high speed, high load
Low temp flow (pumpability) at end of IIIG test
Sequence IIIGB
GM V6 engine, high temp/high speed, high load
Phosphorus retention (volatility) at end of IIIG test
Chemical Properties
Lab Test
Specific physical / chemical properties per viscosity grade (SAE J300)
Gelation Index
Lab Test
Low temp gel formation
MRV
Lab Test
Low temp flow (pumpability) - fresh oil
TEOST MHT, 33C
Lab Test
High temperature deposits
Foam Control
Lab Test
Foaming Tendency / Stability
ROBO
Lab Test
Low temp flow (pumpability) of aged oil
Ball Rust Test
Lab Test
Anti-rust capability
Emulsion Retention
Lab Test
Emulsion retention when biofuels (E85) are used
Oil / Elastomer Compatibility
Lab Test
Hardness, Elongation, Volume, Tensile changes
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: Gene K
Is it possible that the high detergent levels in oils like ASL push them over the total ash limit to be certified?
yes. They have to fall in line to survive.
Is that a fact, or just opinion? Just wondering.
Originally Posted By: Gene K
Is it possible that the high detergent levels in oils like ASL push them over the total ash limit to be certified?
yes. They have to fall in line to survive.
Is that a fact, or just opinion? Just wondering.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Is that a fact, or just opinion? Just wondering.
Much depends on the volatility of the formulated oil. Some chemists are still of the opinion that if the oil has low volatility, then ash deposit formation will be minimal.
Calcium ash is soft and can be blown away while burning weak solvents and/or an occassional burst of acceleration, or as some call it, the "Italian tuneup."
In my view, gasoline (pure hydrocarbon ash) deposits used to be more of a problem with carbuerated engines than the modern lean burn engines.
Is that a fact, or just opinion? Just wondering.
Much depends on the volatility of the formulated oil. Some chemists are still of the opinion that if the oil has low volatility, then ash deposit formation will be minimal.
Calcium ash is soft and can be blown away while burning weak solvents and/or an occassional burst of acceleration, or as some call it, the "Italian tuneup."
In my view, gasoline (pure hydrocarbon ash) deposits used to be more of a problem with carbuerated engines than the modern lean burn engines.
Last edited:
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
I think Amsoil makes good products but it would be nice if they opened up a little about the production facility , how they blend , how they test...etc. , without trying to instal the WOW factor . Just some basic info about Amsoil , who they are and why they claim to make a great product .
I don't think this is a reasonable request, and here is why.
HOW they blend (process), WHO they buy products from, etc., are part of their internal, intellectual property and you would have to ask ALL oil companies to do the same and I can tell you, that AINT going to happen.
I think Amsoil makes good products but it would be nice if they opened up a little about the production facility , how they blend , how they test...etc. , without trying to instal the WOW factor . Just some basic info about Amsoil , who they are and why they claim to make a great product .
I don't think this is a reasonable request, and here is why.
HOW they blend (process), WHO they buy products from, etc., are part of their internal, intellectual property and you would have to ask ALL oil companies to do the same and I can tell you, that AINT going to happen.
MolaKule
Staff member
The chemistry has to be sold and marketing is a part of it. You make claims about your products based on the most comprehensive testing you can afford, using both the ASTM and fleet testing.
If anything is hidden, it's your internal processes and formulations (see previous post).
All companies are constantly reevaluating the range of products, what they think the market needs, and their marketing strategies.
It is easy to Monday Morning quaterback, but unless you are in their shoes and behind the scenes, you are guessing at their intentions.
Quote:
Recently on another forum, a retired CVX tribologist claimed Amsoil 5w40 Euro does not pass some of the required testing. He claims they tested it and it failed. I can’t confirm how true this is, but I found it interesting.
If you can't confirm that this person is really a Tribologist and that his statement are true, then why mention it?
If anything is hidden, it's your internal processes and formulations (see previous post).
All companies are constantly reevaluating the range of products, what they think the market needs, and their marketing strategies.
It is easy to Monday Morning quaterback, but unless you are in their shoes and behind the scenes, you are guessing at their intentions.
Quote:
Recently on another forum, a retired CVX tribologist claimed Amsoil 5w40 Euro does not pass some of the required testing. He claims they tested it and it failed. I can’t confirm how true this is, but I found it interesting.
If you can't confirm that this person is really a Tribologist and that his statement are true, then why mention it?
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
According to Amsoils published TDC's most of their oil formulations, especially the Signature series show very low
NOACKS. Since M1 doesn't provide any NOACK information, What are THEY hiding ?
They definitely did not want anyone to know they started using Grp III's in the mix and the slightly higher NOACK is one indicator of base oils used.
According to Amsoils published TDC's most of their oil formulations, especially the Signature series show very low
NOACKS. Since M1 doesn't provide any NOACK information, What are THEY hiding ?
They definitely did not want anyone to know they started using Grp III's in the mix and the slightly higher NOACK is one indicator of base oils used.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
The chemistry has to be sold and marketing is a part of it. You make claims about your products based on the most comprehensive testing you can afford, using both the ASTM and fleet testing.
If anything is hidden, it's your internal processes and formulations (see previous post).
All companies are constantly reevaluating the range of products, what they think the market needs, and their marketing strategies.
It is easy to Monday Morning quaterback, but unless you are in their shoes and behind the scenes, you are guessing at their intentions.
Quote:
Recently on another forum, a retired CVX tribologist claimed Amsoil 5w40 Euro does not pass some of the required testing. He claims they tested it and it failed. I can’t confirm how true this is, but I found it interesting.
If you can't confirm that this person is really a Tribologist and that his statement are true, then why mention it?
I guess I found it a bit more credible coming from someone that worked in the industry. It also makes me question why Amsoil 5w40 Euro is never on the VW list. It's a reasonable question.
http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/229.51_en.html
Again, same question would apply to Redline. Just curious what makes the formulations different? With RL it's the ZDP levels.
The chemistry has to be sold and marketing is a part of it. You make claims about your products based on the most comprehensive testing you can afford, using both the ASTM and fleet testing.
If anything is hidden, it's your internal processes and formulations (see previous post).
All companies are constantly reevaluating the range of products, what they think the market needs, and their marketing strategies.
It is easy to Monday Morning quaterback, but unless you are in their shoes and behind the scenes, you are guessing at their intentions.
Quote:
Recently on another forum, a retired CVX tribologist claimed Amsoil 5w40 Euro does not pass some of the required testing. He claims they tested it and it failed. I can’t confirm how true this is, but I found it interesting.
If you can't confirm that this person is really a Tribologist and that his statement are true, then why mention it?
I guess I found it a bit more credible coming from someone that worked in the industry. It also makes me question why Amsoil 5w40 Euro is never on the VW list. It's a reasonable question.
http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/229.51_en.html
Again, same question would apply to Redline. Just curious what makes the formulations different? With RL it's the ZDP levels.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: buster
Recently on another forum, a retired CVX tribologist claimed Amsoil 5w40 Euro does not pass some of the required testing. He claims they tested it and it failed. I can’t confirm how true this is, but I found it interesting.
If you can't confirm that this person is really a Tribologist and that his statement are true, then why mention it?
Because it's what buster does. Nothing wrong with asking the question. But to claim some unknown internet guy says the oil fails some unnamed tests? Is that really what BITOG has come to? Wow. It's actually pretty ironic given the thread title.
Originally Posted By: buster
Recently on another forum, a retired CVX tribologist claimed Amsoil 5w40 Euro does not pass some of the required testing. He claims they tested it and it failed. I can’t confirm how true this is, but I found it interesting.
If you can't confirm that this person is really a Tribologist and that his statement are true, then why mention it?
Because it's what buster does. Nothing wrong with asking the question. But to claim some unknown internet guy says the oil fails some unnamed tests? Is that really what BITOG has come to? Wow. It's actually pretty ironic given the thread title.
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