ACEA A3/B4 oils still relevant in 2024 for Turbo GDI 'High performance' Engines? - Hyundai ElantraN

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ylk1

Joined
Dec 13, 2023
Messages
21
Thanks to everyone in this forum for helping me understand and gain knowledge on everything lubrication!

Reading the forum posts, I understand that there's a lot more than just viscosity.
API/ILSAC/ACEA/Manufacturer approvals, HTHS, HTFS, NoAck Volatility, Oil oxidation, TBN, EP additives like ZDDP etc.., SAPS content

I understand that a good 'performance' oil should have:
- High HTHS (ideally min 3.5 for 30 Grade+)
- Pure Synthetic base oil (Group 4+) if possible
- Low VII (for high HTFS and MOFT)
- Lower NoAck% (Ideally less than 7-8) for less GDI valve deposits.
- Newer wear/EP formulation with some legacy additives like ZDDP/Phosphorous/Sulphur compounds that have no modern alternatives (or very expensive)
- Modern detergent formulation (for meeting SP) like low calcium and high Magnesium (not ideal but no other option for now)
- Reasonable TBN for longevity (although not sure anymore?)
- Some Moly/Titanium (not sure if high quantity is required for pure synthetic base oils anymore as someone mentioned they create deposits)
* Lowish SAPS if possible?

SAPS content is where I can't seem to find clear answers anywhere. I get that it's a must for Diesel/GPF cars and in EU

A lot of higher grade performance oils XW-40/50/60 oils for both auto/motorcycle street/racing still has high ZDDP usage (1000-1800ppm)
(and high Moly content for racing where the deposits are not that big of a deal)

This tells me that there is no reasonable alternative to basic ZDDP/Sulphate/Phosphate compounds.
One off oils always being an exception (Mobil1 ESP x3/x4/Supercar 0w40 etc.. for DexosR/Porsche C40)

Newer API/ACEA/ILSAC standard development seem to confirm this as the updates to performance oils is negligible compared to low viscosity oils.
Motorcycle oil standard updates are basically frozen in time and so are the formulations.

So, this brings me to the question in title. Are ACEA A3/B4 formualted oils still relevant and recommended for 'performance' engines in USA?
The difference in ACEA A3/B4 - C3 for SAPS content is basically ~200ppm (Phosphorous/Zinc) for a typical 5w-30 oil
e.g M1 ESP 5w-30 vs M1 FS 5w-30

Is it still worth running A3/B4 oils that meets API SP for good long term wear protection compared to equivalent ACEA C3 spec oils?
Does this 200ppm SAPS content make a big difference in engine catalyst performance over it's typical lifetime of 100k miles?

Any discussion or links to papers are highly appreciated!


Coming to my use case, I've recently bought a Hyundai Elantra N that has a 2.0 Turbo GDI engine for which Hyundai OM mentions:
"SAE 0W-30 API SN PLUS/SP or ILSAC GF-6"

These requirements have frustrated a lot of Elantra N users as there is only 1 mainstream oil that satisfies this criteria given how notorious Hyundai is for warranty denial:

Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w-30 (SP)

I know that this oil has weak HTHS of ~3.1
Given it's a performance engine that can see engine oil temps of 250F+, I want to run Full SAPS M1 FS 5w-30 (or) Mid SAPS M1 ESP 0w30.
Any advice?

Thank you all!

Reddit discussion on ElantraN oils:
Hyundai oils used by US dealerships:
Hyundai factory fill? https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/hyundai-kia-super-premium-plus-0w30-voa.372912/
Hyundai 0w-30 in USA? https://www.hyundaipartsdeal.com/genuine/hyundai-eng-oil-full-syn-0w-30~00232-fsyn0-30war.html
 
Last edited:
No GPF then you can run full SAPS. Have a GPF, then mid only. I’m assuming no GPF on this engine in the US. If your engine doesn’t burn a lot of oil then I don’t think it’s going to make much difference. That being said, it’s a Hyundai so it might burn oil. 😅. If I owned one of these I would probably run M1 FS 0W-40 or ESP X3 0W-40 if you believe it may lower intake valve deposits. PP Euro 5W-40 a good choice also, or the ESP 5W-30 if you want a mid SAPS 30.
 
Just because Hyundai approves of their Hyundai / Kia 0w30, doesn't mean all others are not approved and denied.

Also, the 0w30 in your Owners Manual, does it read as 'Recommended" or "Required". There's a big difference in those two words.

I use Amsoil Euro 0w30 and Amsoil also makes a 2nd 0w30. I believe HPL makes (2) different ones also. So if your Manual states "recommended", then options to use 0/5w20 and 5/10w30 exist for optional C3 and Dexos 1 / Gen 3 oils..
 
Welcome! Glad you found the site and are now going to lose a lot of sleep over which oil to put in your car :p.

Your "dream" oil can be found fairly easily and should be sought if you're not happy using the "approved" Hyundai oil. Looks like a SOPUS product and is probably a Pennzoil PPE clone, if not the exact same formula. Good stuff there. One thing you didn't mention with the "dream" oil is the ability to deal with fuel dilution. Newer small, high strung DI engines can be diluters. Add some forced induction and some can be serious ones. An oil with good resistance will maintain the critical film strength and help mitigate a nasty brew in the sump from blowby. A3/B4s are proven in this regard (as well as several other benefits) as seen with long OCIs and keeping engines healthy. Depending on how you will whip that N should determine what you feed it if outside the Hyundai recommended boundries. You're welcome for the confusion. Now you're one of us.
 
ylk1 said:
Thanks to everyone in this forum for helping me understand and gain knowledge on everything lubrication!

Reading the forum posts, I understand that there's a lot more than just viscosity.
API/ILSAC/ACEA/Manufacturer approvals, HTHS, HTFS, NoAck Volatility, Oil oxidation, TBN, EP additives like ZDDP etc.., SAPS content

I understand that a good 'performance' oil should have:
- High HTHS (ideally min 3.5 for 30 Grade+)
- Pure Synthetic base oil (Group 4+) if possible
- Low VII (for high HTFS and MOFT)
- Lower NoAck% (Ideally less than 7-8) for less GDI valve deposits.
- Newer wear/EP formulation with some legacy additives like ZDDP/Phosphorous/Sulphur compounds that have no modern alternatives (or very expensive)
- Modern detergent formulation (for meeting SP) like low calcium and high Magnesium (not ideal but no other option for now)
- Reasonable TBN for longevity (although not sure anymore?)
- Some Moly/Titanium (not sure if high quantity is required for pure synthetic base oils anymore as someone mentioned they create deposits)
* Lowish SAPS if possible?

SAPS content is where I can't seem to find clear answers anywhere. I get that it's a must for Diesel/GPF cars and in EU

A lot of higher grade performance oils XW-40/50/60 oils for both auto/motorcycle street/racing still has high ZDDP usage (1000-1800ppm)
(and high Moly content for racing where the deposits are not that big of a deal)

This tells me that there is no reasonable alternative to basic ZDDP/Sulphate/Phosphate compounds.
One off oils always being an exception (Mobil1 ESP x3/x4/Supercar 0w40 etc.. for DexosR/Porsche C40)

Newer API/ACEA/ILSAC standard development seem to confirm this as the updates to performance oils is negligible compared to low viscosity oils.
Motorcycle oil standard updates are basically frozen in time and so are the formulations.

So, this brings me to the question in title. Are ACEA A3/B4 formualted oils still relevant and recommended for 'performance' engines in USA?
The difference in ACEA A3/B4 - C3 for SAPS content is basically ~200ppm (Phosphorous/Zinc) for a typical 5w-30 oil
e.g M1 ESP 5w-30 vs M1 FS 5w-30

Is it still worth running A3/B4 oils that meets API SP for good long term wear protection compared to equivalent ACEA C3 spec oils?
Does this 200ppm SAPS content make a big difference in engine catalyst performance over it's typical lifetime of 100k miles?

Any discussion or links to papers are highly appreciated!


Coming to my use case, I've recently bought a Hyundai Elantra N that has a 2.0 Turbo GDI engine for which Hyundai OM mentions:
"SAE 0W-30 API SN PLUS/SP or ILSAC GF-6"

These requirements have frustrated a lot of Elantra N users as there is only 1 mainstream oil that satisfies this criteria given how notorious Hyundai is for warranty denial:

Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w-30 (SP)

I know that this oil has weak HTHS of ~3.1
Given it's a performance engine that can see engine oil temps of 250F+, I want to run Full SAPS M1 FS 5w-30 (or) Mid SAPS M1 ESP 0w30.
Any advice?

Thank you all!

Reddit discussion on ElantraN oils:
Hyundai oils used by US dealerships:
Hyundai factory fill? https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/hyundai-kia-super-premium-plus-0w30-voa.372912/
Hyundai 0w-30 in USA? https://www.hyundaipartsdeal.com/genuine/hyundai-eng-oil-full-syn-0w-30~00232-fsyn0-30war.html
Click to expand...

I thought 0w30 was recommended and not actually required.
Or explicitly stated as required in the manual.
 
nicholas said:
I thought 0w30 was recommended and not actually required.
Or explicitly stated as required in the manual.
Click to expand...
That used to be the case for older versions of 2.0T engines.
The newer ones have the viscosity stated explicitly in the service manual. The Euro versions of this engine are recommended to run the same 0W-30 with ACEA C2/C5 spec as @yowps3 stated

1711672734920.jpg



Thanks to the forum, I chose to use M1 5W-30 Euro Full SAPS oil as it's one of the few XW-30 oils with Full SAPS, good GTL base & API SP Engine requirement tested. The other option was Castrol 0W-30 A3/B4 with PAO base, but I couldn't find it cheap.

Figured the extra Zinc/Phosphorous Full SAPS is much more beneficial to this engine as it has cam on bucket design with MLA (Mechanical Lash Adjusters) similar to high revving motorcycle engines rather than a roller design with Hydraulic lash adjustment.

MPG has gone down slightly (around 5-8%) and the oil warmup time is about the same.
It feels really smooth and an absolute peach to rev out. I am impressed by how vibration free this engine is at high revs for a four cylinder.

I want to try out M1 FS 0W-40 later.
 
Last edited:
ylk1 said:
That used to be the case for older versions of 2.0T engines.
The newer ones have the viscosity stated explicitly in the service manual. The Euro versions of this engine are recommended to run the same 0W-30 with ACEA C2/C5 spec as @yowps3 stated

View attachment 210867


Thanks to the forum, I chose to use M1 5W-30 Euro Full SAPS oil as it's one of the few XW-30 oils with Full SAPS, good GTL base & API SP Engine requirement tested. The other option was Castrol 0W-30 A3/B4 with PAO base, but I couldn't find it cheap.

Figured the extra Zinc/Phosphorous Full SAPS is much more beneficial to this engine as it has cam on bucket design with MLA (Mechanical Lash Adjusters) similar to high revving motorcycle engines rather than a roller design with Hydraulic lash adjustment.

MPG has gone down slightly (around 5-8%) and the oil warmup time is about the same.
It feels really smooth and an absolute peach to rev out. I am impressed by how vibration free this engine is at high revs for a four cylinder.

I want to try out M1 FS 0W-40 later.
Click to expand...
I thought you said they required 0w30......
Yet you choose 5w30......
Hyundai would be the last manufacturer I would play viscosity wars with.
Just sayin.........

As a side note I think you are wise to use a euro 5w30 for engine longevity........
 
nicholas said:
I thought you said they required 0w30......
Yet you choose 5w30......
Hyundai would be the last manufacturer I would play viscosity wars with.
Just sayin.........

As a side note I think you are wise to use a euro 5w30 for engine longevity........
Click to expand...
Yeah. I've heard about the dealers. Will be really surprised if they are able to pick up the difference between 0w-30 vs 5w-30.
Anyway hoping it never gets to that.
 
0w30s are built better for TDGIs. The one I use in my Sig is much thicker too.
Find a 0w30 Euro and change that oil often (4k). Leave the filter on for 8k.

Always check the dipstick level too. Keep it at the full-mark.
 
Triple_Se7en said:
0w30s are built better for TDGIs. The one I use in my Sig is much thicker too.
Find a 0w30 Euro and change that oil often (4k). Leave the filter on for 8k.

Always check the dipstick level too. Keep it at the full-mark.
Click to expand...
I agree that 0w30 is the future for regulators and formulators (vs) 5w-30
Studying the MSDS pdfs, I see a lot of 0w30 have good base stock content (Grp3+/PAO/Esters) compared to 5w30

Among >3.5 HTHS ACEA options, I see a lot of C3 versions but it's a shame that A3/B4 Full SAPS versions are left out.

A3/B4: Ravenol SSO, Castrol A3/B4, Motul 300v
C3: M1 ESP, Pennzoil/Quaker State Euro LX, Castrol LL, Amsoil MS Euro, LiquiMoly 4210, Motul XClean 8100+EFE, Shell Helix Ultra ECT

Even among these not a lot of oils carry API SP Engine test requirements label.
Not a lot of cheap options on Walmart either compared to 5w30 C3/A3-B4 options.
 
Last edited:
ylk1 said:
Yeah. I've heard about the dealers. Will be really surprised if they are able to pick up the difference between 0w-30 vs 5w-30.
Anyway hoping it never gets to that.
Click to expand...
I'm talking about when they ask for receipts if something happens.
Your will will say mobil 5w30
 
nicholas said:
I'm talking about when they ask for receipts if something happens.
Your will will say mobil 5w30
Click to expand...
Then what stops some stupid Hyundai dealers from putting cheap semi-synthetic 0w20 bulk oil in N series cars from inexperience N owner and the other N owner who seem to trust the clueless Hyundai dealer who does not care about putting the worst cheap oil choice in the their N series car and their other turbo cars. This has lessened to a degree with multiple years on N series cars and people catching the dealer putting in cheap 0w20 bulk oil. Then can you trust the Hyundai oil change guy to do it right and not fudge the paperwork that he did put in the correct oil. A Hyundai/Kia dealer is the wild west, you get the good and the bad, mostly bad. I gave up 10 free oil changes with my car because I knew back in 2018 when Hyundai was putting 0w-20 semi in their turbo cars on a regular basis. In 2024 you have a better chance of getting the correct oil, I personally still think it is Russian roulette at Hyundai/Kia dealer. I just don't like the dealers are not mandated by the manufacture to HAVE ON SITE a 30 to 55 gallon drum of high grade performance oil for N series cars, let alone their turbo cars. And a district manager when visiting "reconciles" it's use with drum purchases and N series output tickets. Wild west Hyundai/Kia dealers can't be trusted. Yet they shove their warranty banning BS at us for using high grade performance oil that is so far superior what some dealers are putting into their N series and turbo cars because of their greed and stupidity.
 
Mainia said:
Then what stops some stupid Hyundai dealers from putting cheap semi-synthetic 0w20 bulk oil in N series cars from inexperience N owner and the other N owner who seem to trust the clueless Hyundai dealer who does not care about putting the worst cheap oil choice in the their N series car and their other turbo cars. This has lessened to a degree with multiple years on N series cars and people catching the dealer putting in cheap 0w20 bulk oil. Then can you trust the Hyundai oil change guy to do it right and not fudge the paperwork that he did put in the correct oil. A Hyundai/Kia dealer is the wild west, you get the good and the bad, mostly bad. I gave up 10 free oil changes with my car because I knew back in 2018 when Hyundai was putting 0w-20 semi in their turbo cars on a regular basis. In 2024 you have a better chance of getting the correct oil, I personally still think it is Russian roulette at Hyundai/Kia dealer. I just don't like the dealers are not mandated by the manufacture to HAVE ON SITE a 30 to 55 gallon drum of high grade performance oil for N series cars, let alone their turbo cars. And a district manager when visiting "reconciles" it's use with drum purchases and N series output tickets. Wild west Hyundai/Kia dealers can't be trusted. Yet they shove their warranty banning BS at us for using high grade performance oil that is so far superior what some dealers are putting into their N series and turbo cars because of their greed and stupidity.
Click to expand...
Difference between a dealer doing something and a customer doing their own oil changes......honestly now?
 
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