5k OCI Overkill: M1 EP vs Pennzoil Ultra Platinum

[buster]

The differences are often minimal among oils approved oils for the same spec within a specific tier. Some exceed the specifications more than others. If your particular engine requires a certain specification, that is the level of performance required. Engine type, driving conditions, and your OCI all factor into the oil selection process.

For the 1.5T, I'd probably lean towards a more shear stable oil in case of fuel dilution - 5w20, 10w20, 5w30, 10w30. The 0w's are fine, but will contain more VII's. If you're ok with 150k-200k, the OE grade/oil is likely fine and will get you there.

M1 5w30 EP should work well for you. It's been speculated that the new Triple Action oils use less VII's now too, which is preferable.

If you went the boutique route, HPL no VII 5w20 would be a nice choice.

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

The differences are often minimal among oils approved oils for the same spec within a specific tier. Some exceed the specifications more than others. If your particular engine requires a certain specification, that is the level of performance required. Engine type, driving conditions, and your OCI all factor into the oil selection process.

For the 1.5T, I'd probably lean towards a more shear stable oil in case of fuel dilution - 5w20, 10w20, 5w30, 10w30. The 0w's are fine, but will contain more VII's. If you're ok with 150k-200k, the OE grade/oil is likely fine and will get you there.

M1 5w30 EP should work well for you. It's been speculated that the new Triple Action oils use less VII's now too, which is preferable.

If you went the boutique route, HPL no VII 5w20 would be a nice choice.

Maybe I'll try a 5W30 next, though I do have quite a bit to go until the next change so plenty of time to confuse myself further.

 

[The Critic]

Extended intervals are not the name of the game here so one less concern, yet I'm still curious to try a 5w-30 and see if it quiets the engine down at all. I do hear some noise when the engine re-starts after a few minutes at a light (I use the idle stop start feature), but that sounds like it could be the timing chain/tensioner, and not the fact that all of the bearing surfaces have lost all their film strength. I will add, with the high pressure fuel pump under the hood, its a little tough to isolate possible bad engine noises from normal ones.

Then the question becomes, 0w-30, or 5w-30, or the EP of either of those? I recall reading here that 0w-30 actually has better viscosity due to a different base or additives? This is getting a little confusing at this point, but I'm still learning towards EP since I hear they have some better characteristics, and 5qt is like $2 more for the EP vs AFE, so really insignificant

In general, the tighter the spread, the less likely that VII's are used - so heavier base oils. For your climate, a 5W-xx should be more than adequate.

Keep in mind that regardless of composition (syn/dino/blend), all 0w/5w/10w oils have to adhere to the SAE J300 guidelines for cold pumpability; the "synthetics" are merely at the lower end of each range, hence why they are known to "pump better at low temps."

 

[twX]

Again, the way you prevent wear is through HT/HS (and good filtration as noted above), so abandoning viscosity by fiat eliminates a key factor in wear and longevity.

I used to use Pennzoil Ultra Platinum, but stopped using it as it's usually on the thin side of each oil grade (Ex: it's 5W-30 borders on a 5W-20 for viscosity@100C). Also, Pennzoil oils tend to have a weaker minimalist anti-wear additive package based on the VOA's I've seen here on BITOG. HTHS matters, and lower HTHS usually means higher wear (just google HTHS wear graph). This is why I permanently switched from 20 grade oils to 30 grade oils.

Oils with lower HTHS only result in higher wear once the oil gets hot enough that the viscosity drops below a critical level. Various studies show this critical high-shear viscosity to be around 2.6 cP, which is the viscosity that a 0W20 would be at 150 degrees C in the sump. With 5% fuel dilution, the critical temperature would drop to around 140 C (though at these temperatures, fuel will quickly evaporate from the oil.) With normal, moderate oil temperatures, different grades of oil won't result in any meaningful difference in wear.

The OP admits to driving like my grandmother, and lives in a temperate climate, so his oil isn't going to get hot enough for HTHS to matter.

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

Oils with lower HTHS only result in higher wear once the oil gets hot enough that the viscosity drops below a critical level. Various studies show this critical high-shear viscosity to be around 2.6 cP, which is the viscosity that a 0W20 would be at 150 degrees C in the sump. With 5% fuel dilution, the critical temperature would drop to around 140 C (though at these temperatures, fuel will quickly evaporate from the oil.) With normal, moderate oil temperatures, different grades of oil won't result in any meaningful difference in wear.

The OP admits to driving like my grandmother, and lives in a temperate climate, so his oil isn't going to get hot enough for HTHS to matter.

This is a good point. I actually also asked my buddy who has a 2020 Type R with the 2.0T and is a tech at Mazda, what he uses. He runs 0w-20 EP and a factory filter every 5k miles, and that’s the route I’m going to go. I haven’t seen that this fuel dilution thing matters practically speaking.

Thanks for the help everyone.

 

[kschachn]

Oils with lower HTHS only result in higher wear once the oil gets hot enough that the viscosity drops below a critical level. Various studies show this critical high-shear viscosity to be around 2.6 cP, which is the viscosity that a 0W20 would be at 150 degrees C in the sump. With 5% fuel dilution, the critical temperature would drop to around 140 C (though at these temperatures, fuel will quickly evaporate from the oil.) With normal, moderate oil temperatures, different grades of oil won't result in any meaningful difference in wear.

The OP admits to driving like my grandmother, and lives in a temperate climate, so his oil isn't going to get hot enough for HTHS to matter.

No, the HT/HS vs. wear relationship is independent of temperature. All you’re doing with increasing temperature is increasing the wear. There is never zero wear and the wear increases with temperature. You always have wear.

As noted, yet another thin vs. thick thread.

 

[FMC]

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

As noted, yet another thin vs. thick thread.

It wasn’t supposed to be, and I asked a very specific question looking for a very specific answer because I’ve seen this happen before here where threads spiral out of control into nonsense. Unfortunately people here can’t seem to help themselves

 

[1BadManVan]

It wasn’t supposed to be, and I asked a very specific question looking for a very specific answer because I’ve seen this happen before here where threads spiral out of control into nonsense. Unfortunately people here can’t seem to help themselves

He complains about it being a thick vs thin but yet he’s also contributing to it as well so…

 

[Garen]

... (price not being a factor as they are close enough, IMO).

In case you weren't aware, Pennzoil currently has a rebate that would allow you to get $20 off two 5-quart jugs which might change that calculus for you.

Some other thoughts:

• To maintain your warranty, make sure you keep your receipts if you're doing your own oil changes. For a Honda, you can create an online account over here and maintain your records in your profile online.
  • Personally I prefer ordering online since it's so easy to reproduce a receipt whenever needed.
  • Ordering online with WM or Amazon can get another 5% back if you use their house credit card (but occasionally the Big Oil Co's exclude one or both of those in their rebates! So check their terms first.)
• If your OCI isn't for a little while, Mobil 1 might have their own DIY rebate program sometime this summer which would then make the costs much closer
• Both PUP and M1 EP top-tier oils from each of their respective brands, I doubt you'd notice a difference so if I were you I'd choose based on price and convenience (it's all a few clicks away online anyway...).
• If I were you I'd choose a simple rule of thumb for your OCI and just stick to it. For ex: I do every 6-months (or 5k if sooner), in September and March (before/after winter at the same time I swap winter tires, which also gives me an opportunity to visually inspect for other issues.)
• If still on the fence, buy them both and carry out a little mini-experiment for fun to see if you notice a difference. We're only talking about the cost of a couple pizzas here anyhoo.
• Once out of warranty you can come back to BITOG and spend irrationally large amounts of time thinking about whether you should move to a boutique brand or a higher viscosity that people swear they can tell makes the engine quieter but BITOG posters say it's all in your head.

-hth

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

5K OCI - is my absolute max, but I prefer 4K / 6 months (whichever comes first) with a full synthetic for cars that I care about.
My main concern is sludge/varnish/gummed up piston rings.
My belief is that there are no noticable differences between any brand full synthetic, so I usually choose the lowest priced full synthetic.

I used to use Pennzoil Ultra Platinum, but stopped using it as it's usually on the thin side of each oil grade (Ex: it's 5W-30 borders on a 5W-20 for viscosity@100C). Also, Pennzoil oils tend to have a weaker minimalist anti-wear additive package based on the VOA's I've seen here on BITOG. HTHS matters, and lower HTHS usually means higher wear (just google HTHS wear graph). This is why I permanently switched from 20 grade oils to 30 grade oils.

If money is no object, you may wish to consider High Performance Labs (HPL) PCMO which is an Ester based oil
and keeps the engine internals very clean. From what you mentioned in your thread, HPL PCMO Ester based oil seems like a perfect fit for your goals.

Why do you give decent advice to others on using oils with ANs & esters but then decide to not follow it yourself? You could easily double your OCI to 8k/12 mo and your engine will be cleaner using an oil with significant AN/ester content than it will with an oil that doesn’t contain these compounds.

 

[twX]

No, the HT/HS vs. wear relationship is independent of temperature. All you’re doing with increasing temperature is increasing the wear. There is never zero wear and the wear increases with temperature. You always have wear.

As noted, yet another thin vs. thick thread.

HTHS doesn't change with oil temperature since it is defined at exactly 150 C, but high shear viscosity does decrease with increased temperature (see high shear viscosity vs temperature in Table 1 below). This is the only study I'm aware of that measures engine wear vs HTHS at different oil temperatures. It shows that wear levels remain normal when oil temperatures are moderate, even with oil with an HTHS of 2.2 cP (thinner grade than a 0W16), whereas increased wear is seen when that same oil is at 130 C sump temperature (Fig. 2 and 3 below).

We can also see that when wear does become accelerated due to low viscosity oil, it only roughly doubles, and this is from a baseline wear rate that is already very low. In typical driving, most engine wear will occur during engine warmup, so this additional wear when the oil gets really hot and thin shouldn't significantly affect the overall wear rates of the engine. In some applications, like racing or long-distance hauling, I could see HTHS being a more signifianct factor in overall wear. I also wonder how much better thicker oils protect the engine during knock and pre-ignition, which is outside the scope of any of these studies.

 

[Bill7]

Why do you give decent advice to others on using oils with ANs & esters but then decide to not follow it yourself? You could easily double your OCI to 8k/12 mo and your engine will be cleaner using an oil with significant AN/ester content than it will with an oil that doesn’t contain these compounds.

Very good response, and good point.

Regarding oil change interval, my thinking is 3k-4k/6 month oil change interval (whichever comes first) with any full synthetic should guarantee that I'll never ever have any sludge/varnish/dirty stuck piston rings. I also like cleaning up existing sludge/varnish left by previous owners, so am exploring both solvent based engine flushes and HPL AN + Ester based cleaning.

I respect those people who like to do 8k/12 month oil change intervals, but to be honest, it's not something I have any interest in or see any benefit from doing.

 

[scotty.honda.dog]

Very helpful answer. Curious since you’ve researched a lot, what made you not move to a 0w-30 or a 5w-30?

DiLluTiOn is a thing but doesn’t seem to actually matter with these oils

It is still in the Honda warranty so I am using factory spec.

I am trusting the Honda engineers. They designed the bearings around 0w20 so I am sticking with that.

 

[tolian21]

am trusting the Honda engineers. They designed the bearings around 0w20 so I am sticking with that

Did they have in mind that viscosity of 0w-20 drops to 6 cSt and fuel dilution is 5%?

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Did they have in mind that viscosity of 0w-20 drops to 6 cSt and fuel dilution is 5%?

No, no, I’m sure in the hundreds of thousands of test miles, that subject never came up.

 

[FZ1]

The coldest temp we saw last winter was 8f here. The engine does make some noise for 1-2 seconds on start up but I think that’s to be expected before oil fills the whole system. It also runs a little louder the first few minutes, presumably until thermal expansion makes everything seat together happily. Maybe I’ll try EP 5w-30 next time, I’m still about 3800mi away from my next change.

Engine noise ain't good. I like PUP 0-20 in my Camry. It's quiet. If your gonna go up in vis from 20w; go to a thin 30w like PP 5-30. Ymmv.

 

[Jetronic]

Oils with lower HTHS only result in higher wear once the oil gets hot enough that the viscosity drops below a critical level. Various studies show this critical high-shear viscosity to be around 2.6 cP, which is the viscosity that a 0W20 would be at 150 degrees C in the sump. With 5% fuel dilution, the critical temperature would drop to around 140 C (though at these temperatures, fuel will quickly evaporate from the oil.) With normal, moderate oil temperatures, different grades of oil won't result in any meaningful difference in wear.

The OP admits to driving like my grandmother, and lives in a temperate climate, so his oil isn't going to get hot enough for HTHS to matter.

No! In the sump there's no shear. Also KV is measured in cSt, and for converting to cP you need to multiply by density which means cP is always 80-90% of the cSt viscosity.

 

[tolian21]

No, no, I’m sure in the hundreds of thousands of test miles, that subject never came up.

I am sure 5% fuel in oil was part of their brilliant engineering process

 

[kevperro]

Trust me.... the Honda engineers would have loved to have developed a port injection + direct injection solution. The choice was made by bean counters, not engineers.