5k OCI Overkill: M1 EP vs Pennzoil Ultra Platinum

[SavetheRimBrake]

So I know the euro manual says you can use 0-30 or 5-30 but still recommends 0-20. If I do go up, I’d be more inclined to go up on the hot vs the cold number, largely due to watching that Engineering Explained video a while ago. That language in the euro manual makes it seem like bumping the viscosity at all should be done as a backup though, and that’s what I’m having some trouble with.

I run a much different than specified oil in my Miata, but that’s also custom built with larger than specified bearing and piston clearances for power. The civic on the other hand, almost never even goes over 1800rpm (the CVT tuning and torque is more than adequate there)

 

[1BadManVan]

Mobil 1 0w20 Ep, better base stock in it, high PAO. I run it in both my Hemi Durango and lifted Jeep. Great all around oil and always plenty of sales and rebates for it where I live.

 

[tolian21]

So I know the euro manual says you can use 0-30 or 5-30 but still recommends 0-20. If I do go up, I’d be more inclined to go up on the hot vs the cold number, largely due to watching that Engineering Explained video a while ago

Just to give you a factual example. UOA on 2.0t Honda engines, similar to yours, show that 0w-20 viscosity dropped for a lot of people from 8.x to 5-6. People that used Xw-30 ended up with Xw20 looking viscosity. Spend your money on oil analysis instead.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Brand IMHO means something, but it depends on the vehicle and the problem is you don't know until you try it.

I ran Magnatec for a long time - cheap, worked great. 5 - 6K OCI.

They stopped making magnatec so I tried Edge which was supposed to be the replacement, but my solid tappets sounded a little clackity - they didn't with the magnatec.

So I tried M1 EP. Back then it was still only $25. Worked greet again.

I tried one batch of QSFS. I didn't notice any issues except it used about 1/2 a quart during my 5K OCI. It never used anything before. Perhaps if I kept running it - it would stop, but I was paranoid and went back to M1 EP - and the use stopped.

So now I am back to EP on a 5K OCI, and its the most expensive stuff Walmart sells, but I am afraid to switch again. I could try regular M1 but its only $1.50 less I think.

 

[Cujet]

Hey, I just noticed that I did not answer your original question, just provided some thoughts. Apologies.

My suggestion is M1. The reason is this. I've seen engines with good OCI's, using non M1 products with varnish, sludge and less than stellar piston conditions. I've never seen a properly maintained M1 engine with anything but a perfectly clean condition. Never any turbocharger coking, oil ring drain hole clogging or other oil related failures. Searching this site, you might find a pic or two with Pennzoil syn varnish.

I worked for Mobil Oil in their flight department, was involved in aircraft oil (jet 254 high thermal stability) and grease (SHC100) testing. Mobil engineers impressed the hell out of me. Especially after coming from the turbocharged automotive background. They used a scanning electron microscope to measure wear with accuracies beyond belief.

I've also worked in marine engine testing and automotive racing and automotive camshaft development, with many hundreds of dyno runs.

 

[facility1]

if it were me ,i would run Mobil 1 ep,though Pennzoil platinum its is so close, to matter ,change around 7-9k,,and use fram ultra or wix (napa gold) oil filters,,and clean/new air filter is important,,,pcv valve is a consideration to a healthy engine,,and a injector cleaner every 8-10 mo. use of top tier fuel is good idea also,,,just suggestions on this matter ...b

 

[scotty.honda.dog]

. I'm between M1 EP and PUP since they seem to be the two best off the shelf offerings, without diving into AMSOIL. I like the M1 because I've used M1 products for 2 decades. I like the PUP since its made from Natural Gas, and claims to offer superior protection for its viscosity. I had actually ordered M1 EP but Amazon cancelled my order so I am using it as an opportunity to explore some other options. NOT interested in

I own and maintain a 21 CRV with the same 1.5 turbo. My daughter drives it, college student so,it either gets a rare really short trip on campus, or a 200 mile back home drive. I am an Enginerd and studied the issue a lot, especially the fuel dilution that these are prone to. I settled on M1 EP 0w20 because:

M1 has outstanding product development and testing.
M1 EP is their premier product
M1 EP is reasonably priced, $28 on sale at Walmart, not much of a premium over the other choices ($24)
M1 EP is reasonably well available from Amazon and Walmart
PUP for last couple of years has been hard/impossible to find at Walmart or Amazon
I wanted a higher spec product than maybe standard M1 or PP since it is a TDI engine and prone to fuel dilution
M1 EP is also what I standardized on for our other Hondas - J35 V6s
ExxonMobil is a corporation that I respect and is a premier technology leader
ExxonMobil is US based corporation, Pennzoil is a Shell brand and they are not a US corporation
I have used PP in our Honda V6s and had no issues
M1 has a foil seal and I like the jug and know how to pour it

I considered PUP but didnt see the price premium or bad availability as worth it.

I have used Valvoline EP products but will not now since they are now owned by SaudiAramco, they used to be Ashland or independant.

For the CRV, I am trying to stick to changing at 30 pct oil life left if possible but dont have any worry if the vehicle is away and I have to change it “late” with the EP.

I am sticking to the Honda A02 filter in the warranty period. I may change to my standard Bosch Premium 3323 filter in the future.

That is all I know about that…

 

[kschachn]

So I know the euro manual says you can use 0-30 or 5-30 but still recommends 0-20. If I do go up, I’d be more inclined to go up on the hot vs the cold number, largely due to watching that Engineering Explained video a while ago. That language in the euro manual makes it seem like bumping the viscosity at all should be done as a backup though, and that’s what I’m having some trouble with.

You pick a winter rating that is appropriate for your expected starting conditions. Above about -30 an oil with a 5W rating is appropriate. Above 0F a 10W rating is appropriate. Above freezing any rating is acceptable. The ratings are upwards compatible in regards to temperature.

Backup? No engine is damaged or otherwise harmed by a higher HT/HS oil. Film thickness prevents wear, not the other way around. The only advantage to a lower viscosity oil is fuel economy.

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

I own and maintain a 21 CRV with the same 1.5 turbo. My daughter drives it, college student so,it either gets a rare really short trip on campus, or a 200 mile back home drive. I am an Enginerd and studied the issue a lot, especially the fuel dilution that these are prone to. I settled on M1 EP 0w20 because:

M1 has outstanding product development and testing.
M1 EP is their premier product
M1 EP is reasonably priced, $28 on sale at Walmart, not much of a premium over the other choices ($24)
M1 EP is reasonably well available from Amazon and Walmart
PUP for last couple of years has been hard/impossible to find at Walmart or Amazon
I wanted a higher spec product than maybe standard M1 or PP since it is a TDI engine and prone to fuel dilution
M1 EP is also what I standardized on for our other Hondas - J35 V6s
ExxonMobil is a corporation that I respect and is a premier technology leader
ExxonMobil is US based corporation, Pennzoil is a Shell brand and they are not a US corporation
I have used PP in our Honda V6s and had no issues
M1 has a foil seal and I like the jug and know how to pour it

I considered PUP but didnt see the price premium or bad availability as worth it.

I have used Valvoline EP products but will not now since they are now owned by SaudiAramco, they used to be Ashland or independant.

For the CRV, I am trying to stick to changing at 30 pct oil life left if possible but dont have any worry if the vehicle is away and I have to change it “late” with the EP.

I am sticking to the Honda A02 filter in the warranty period. I may change to my standard Bosch Premium 3323 filter in the future.

That is all I know about that…

Very helpful answer. Curious since you’ve researched a lot, what made you not move to a 0w-30 or a 5w-30?

DiLluTiOn is a thing but doesn’t seem to actually matter with these oils

 

[tolian21]

DiLluTiOn is a thing but doesn’t seem to actually matter with these oils

Fuel Dilution is not good for any oil.

 

[kschachn]

Fuel Dilution is not good for any oil.

Nope. There was a post by HPL a while back that discussed this. Fuel dilution is not the benign phenomenon that is often assumed on here. Usually the assumption is based on UOA results which isn't a reliable nor especially relevant indicator.

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

You pick a winter rating that is appropriate for your expected starting conditions. Above about -30 an oil with a 5W rating is appropriate. Above 0F a 10W rating is appropriate. Above freezing any rating is acceptable. The ratings are upwards compatible in regards to temperature.

Backup? No engine is damaged or otherwise harmed by a higher HT/HS oil. Film thickness prevents wear, not the other way around. The only advantage to a lower viscosity oil is fuel economy.

The coldest temp we saw last winter was 8f here. The engine does make some noise for 1-2 seconds on start up but I think that’s to be expected before oil fills the whole system. It also runs a little louder the first few minutes, presumably until thermal expansion makes everything seat together happily. Maybe I’ll try EP 5w-30 next time, I’m still about 3800mi away from my next change.

 

[The Critic]

But the OP stated he wants to keep his vehicle for a long time.

That is too broad of a subject and a critical piece of missing information. For a lot of people, 150K is considered a long time - and 0W20 should be able to get him there w/o issues.

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

Nope. There was a post by HPL a while back that discussed this. Fuel dilution is not the benign phenomenon that is often assumed on here. Usually the assumption is based on UOA results which isn't a reliable nor especially relevant indicator.

So I don’t want to beat the horse to its billionth death, but where are all of the failed engines? I peeked online and there are a ton of these 1.5t equipped cars for sale with 200k+ miles. Perhaps the viscosity falls to a level which still provides adequate protection (hence those UOAs don’t have significant wear metals). I’m not trying to be argumentative for no reason, but from what I’ve seen so far the dilution is a real thing, with very unclear and non consistent consequences.

Sometimes I also have a hard time trusting these boutique companies over multiple multi billion dollar corporations, because if they didn’t go against the grain or try to appeal to the contrarians, they would not stand out in the market (for better or worse) and just be another fly on the wall. I can’t think why auto manufacturers AND oil companies would both be engineering time bombs

So far the dilution problem seems similar to the problem people make out of cardboard oil filter endcaps, which also seems to have no concrete consequences. I’m certainly more open to trying a xw-30 now than before, but the way the manual states it, sounds like it’s more centered around 0w-20 not being available worldwide.

It’s also kind of unclear about long term use of 5w-30 in these engines becsuse the vast majority have likely been maintained with 0w-20 as called for. Every time I get close to being willing to make the switch, I see numerous other posts about 0w-20 going the distance (and that’s not even factoring in the vast majority of owners who don’t even post on forums and just drive their cars to whatever the MM says and take whatever oil the dealer pumps out

I keep referencing my other turbo 4 banger where I run 5w-40 Diesel oil, but that car has custom everything, aftermarket oil pump, and makes 3x the factory horsepower and was built for track use. I would never run 0w-20 there, but I also never drive my Honda even 1/10 as hard

 

[The Critic]

I can’t think why auto manufacturers AND oil companies would both be engineering time bombs.

The "issue" is that OEM's generally design an engine for a certain service life. While that number is rarely publicized, in the past, the Big 3 have cited numbers in the 150-200K range as "lifetime," so it is assumed that this is the industry standard. Approved oils, when changed on time, are designed to support that service life goal. For various reasons, it seems like the recent engines are being built to last their intended service life and not much longer.

A lot of folks on here treat their cars like houses and expect them to literally last forever. So, when you are trying to keep stuff longer (than intended) and don't care about keeping emissions equipment happy, there is a niche sector of oil companies who "claim" to help you in that endeavor by making highly additized oils that *may* deliver "better" results.

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

The "issue" is that OEM's generally design an engine for a certain service life. While that number is rarely publicized, in the past, the Big 3 have cited numbers in the 150-200K range as "lifetime," so it is assumed that this is the industry standard. Approved oils, when changed on time, are designed to support that service life. For various reasons, it seems like the recent engines are being built to last their intended service life and not much longer.

A lot of folks on here treat their cars like houses and expect them to literally last forever. So, when you are trying to keep stuff longer (than intended) and don't care about keeping emissions equipment happy, there is a niche sector of oil companies who "claim" to help you in that endeavor by making highly additized oils that *may* deliver "better" results.

That makes sense, if the car lasts me 150-200k I’ll be happy, though I doubt I’ll keep it that long anyway. And I get it from their standpoint, why design a car to last a lifetime when hardly anyone keeps a car more than a few years at a time, and by the time it’s reached 150-200k it’s so out of date that largely nobody wants it anyway, except the people who can’t afford to be picky.

I think my process of changing the oil 50% sooner than the MM would suggest, and changing the filter every time instead of every other time like the schedule calls for, is already worth something for reliability and long lasting.

 

[Cujet]

I think my process of changing the oil 50% sooner than the MM would suggest, and changing the filter every time instead of every other time like the schedule calls for, is already worth something for reliability and long lasting.

I'd agree that proper OCI's and the choice of a quality oil is key to long engine life. Possibly of note, the Million Mile Van used 10W-40 (vs the OEM 5W-20) and 10K OCI's. So in his case, the additional viscosity provided better protection over the extended OCI's.

A careful study of cam and balancer chain failures nearly always involves a low viscosity oil and extended drain intervals.

 

[tolian21]

That makes sense, if the car lasts me 150-200k I’ll be happy, though I doubt I’ll keep it that long anyway

Not 1M miles? If thats your goal, you can use cheapest oil you can find

 

[Bill7]

I own and maintain a 21 CRV with the same 1.5 turbo. My daughter drives it, college student so,it either gets a rare really short trip on campus, or a 200 mile back home drive. I am an Enginerd and studied the issue a lot, especially the fuel dilution that these are prone to. I settled on M1 EP 0w20 because:

M1 has outstanding product development and testing.
M1 EP is their premier product
M1 EP is reasonably priced, $28 on sale at Walmart, not much of a premium over the other choices ($24)
M1 EP is reasonably well available from Amazon and Walmart
PUP for last couple of years has been hard/impossible to find at Walmart or Amazon
I wanted a higher spec product than maybe standard M1 or PP since it is a TDI engine and prone to fuel dilution
M1 EP is also what I standardized on for our other Hondas - J35 V6s
ExxonMobil is a corporation that I respect and is a premier technology leader
ExxonMobil is US based corporation, Pennzoil is a Shell brand and they are not a US corporation
I have used PP in our Honda V6s and had no issues
M1 has a foil seal and I like the jug and know how to pour it

I considered PUP but didnt see the price premium or bad availability as worth it.

I have used Valvoline EP products but will not now since they are now owned by SaudiAramco, they used to be Ashland or independant.

For the CRV, I am trying to stick to changing at 30 pct oil life left if possible but dont have any worry if the vehicle is away and I have to change it “late” with the EP.

I am sticking to the Honda A02 filter in the warranty period. I may change to my standard Bosch Premium 3323 filter in the future.

That is all I know about that…

After my research in looking at hundreds of UOA's on BITOG and reading countless other posts across many forums, etc, I've come to the conclusion that there is no noticable difference between any group III full synthetic oil regardless of brand or cost, so I use the lowest priced full synthetic available.

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

I'd agree that proper OCI's and the choice of a quality oil is key to long engine life. Possibly of note, the Million Mile Van used 10W-40 (vs the OEM 5W-20) and 10K OCI's. So in his case, the additional viscosity provided better protection over the extended OCI's.

A careful study of cam and balancer chain failures nearly always involves a low viscosity oil and extended drain intervals.

Extended intervals are not the name of the game here so one less concern, yet I'm still curious to try a 5w-30 and see if it quiets the engine down at all. I do hear some noise when the engine re-starts after a few minutes at a light (I use the idle stop start feature), but that sounds like it could be the timing chain/tensioner, and not the fact that all of the bearing surfaces have lost all their film strength. I will add, with the high pressure fuel pump under the hood, its a little tough to isolate possible bad engine noises from normal ones.

Then the question becomes, 0w-30, or 5w-30, or the EP of either of those? I recall reading here that 0w-30 actually has better viscosity due to a different base or additives? This is getting a little confusing at this point, but I'm still learning towards EP since I hear they have some better characteristics, and 5qt is like $2 more for the EP vs AFE, so really insignificant