2025 Toyota Rav4 personal engine oil struggle.

[dubber09]

And... insist on oil being installed and not 'changed' or 'poured'!

 

[TiGeo]

When I was a test engineer, we did 3 pulls of 20 minutes on the torque curve to break in a new engine. The oil is then drained and the sample of the resulting refill was taken as the “baseline” and would be the reference for the daily oil samples that followed the remainder of the test (up to 1500 hours on some tests)

The wear metal content of those first 60 minutes of operation would be 10-50 times higher (widely variable) than what you’d see in the baseline.

So then the recommendation if this is a concern is should be after the first hour of running, not 500 miles, at that point, why bother. My feeling has always been - this is what an oil filter is for. The manufacturers aren't telling you to do it b/c it's not critical. I've had a lot of vehicles and none had early oil changes and none had issues in my ownership, including several with long term/high mileage ownership histories. It's just unnecessary IMHO but I get it makes folks feel good and if that's it, great, feel good! It certainly isn't hurting a thing to do it. But it's also not hurting a thing to not do it. Case in point, current VW Sportwagen, first change around 8K miles, 6 years/112K @ >2x stock power, tracked, etc.....no issues w/r to oil without that "critcial" first 500 mile change.

 

[SiRDOHC]

I missed the start of this thread as I was taking a bit of a much needed BITOG break, and chimmed in on another thread about my findings after a cold long winter using 0w30 AFE in this engine.

I don’t have any 0w20 or 0w16 experience as I jumped the gun and went straight to a 0w30 after break in, maybe others in cold climates can chime in, MPG really suffers with 0w30 in the winter time as does smoothness and shift timing and quality. It all seems to melt into a buttery smooth experience along with significantly better mileage once it warms up to 50- 60 F or so.

Wondering if anyone using 0w16 in very cold winters notices the same. I’ll have to wait till next winter to test it now.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

I missed the start of this thread as I was taking a bit of a much needed BITOG break, and chimmed in on another thread about my findings after a cold long winter using 0w30 AFE in this engine.

I don’t have any 0w20 or 0w16 experience as I jumped the gun and went straight to a 0w30 after break in, maybe others in cold climates can chime in, MPG really suffers with 0w30 in the winter time as does smoothness and shift timing and quality. It all seems to melt into a buttery smooth experience along with significantly better mileage once it warms up to 50- 60 F or so.

Wondering if anyone using 0w16 in very cold winters notices the same. I’ll have to wait till next winter to test it now.

For what it’s worth, HPL P+ 0w30 has really excellent cold weather properties. Noticeably easier starts with it than the bulk Mazda 5w30 in my CX-30 at subzero temps.

 

[SiRDOHC]

For what it’s worth, HPL P+ 0w30 has really excellent cold weather properties. Noticeably easier starts with it than the bulk Mazda 5w30 in my CX-30 at subzero temps.

I'm in Canada and want something I can get off the shelf at Canadian Tire or Walmart.

I guess my point is I don't know if there are any benefits to a 0w30 in this engine in an extreme winter and there might only be drawbacks. If the heating system struggles to maintain cabin heat in most of these winter driving conditions, how hot can the oil be getting?

 

[kschachn]

I'm in Canada and want something I can get off the shelf at Canadian Tire or Walmart.

I guess my point is I don't know if there are any benefits to a 0w30 in this engine in an extreme winter and there might only be drawbacks. If the heating system struggles to maintain cabin heat in most of these winter driving conditions, how hot can the oil be getting?

What kind of drawbacks? I do not understand that question. The only drawback to that oil would be a truly tiny increase in fuel consumption as compared to a 20-grade. Everything else is a benefit.

 

[SiRDOHC]

What kind of drawbacks? I do not understand that question. The only drawback to that oil would be a truly tiny increase in fuel consumption as compared to a 20-grade. Everything else is a benefit.

Drawbacks of being more viscous than it needs to be for the conditions. I have no baseline for what kind of fuel consumption in severe winter is achievable with 0w16, that was my mistake for jumping the gun on 0w30. In the summer I have seen first hand that the difference in consumption is negligible from 0w16-0w30.

I have mentioned this before, never before have I seen as large of a fuel consumption difference winter to summer in any other vehicle I have owned (all things being equal except for temperature), this includes all sorts of driving, short city trips, long city trips, long highway trips.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

I'm in Canada and want something I can get off the shelf at Canadian Tire or Walmart.

I guess my point is I don't know if there are any benefits to a 0w30 in this engine in an extreme winter and there might only be drawbacks. If the heating system struggles to maintain cabin heat in most of these winter driving conditions, how hot can the oil be getting?

Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0w20 or even 5w30 actually have phenomenal cold weather performance characteristics for being off the shelf oils. Their 5w30 actually competes with many off the shelf 0w30s.

That’s what I would recommend for you if cold weather performance is what you’re after and you can’t go the boutique route.

 

[kschachn]

Drawbacks of being more viscous than it needs to be for the conditions. I have no baseline for what kind of fuel consumption in severe winter is achievable with 0w16, that was my mistake for jumping the gun on 0w30. In the summer I have seen first hand that the difference in consumption is negligible from 0w16-0w30.

I have mentioned this before, never before have I seen as large of a fuel consumption difference winter to summer in any other vehicle I have owned (all things being equal except for temperature), this includes all sorts of driving, short city trips, long city trips, long highway trips.

They both have a 0W winter rating. Fuel consumption during start and warmup is relatively insignificant. You’d never, ever observe a difference you could ascribe to the oil. No way.

Superior winter ratings aren’t there to save fuel when cold. Above the low maximum a 0W oil may be thicker than the corresponding 5W equivalent.

 

[kschachn]

Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0w20 or even 5w30 actually have phenomenal cold weather performance characteristics for being off the shelf oils. Their 5w30 actually competes with many off the shelf 0w30s.

Sort of perhaps, except that it has a 5W winter rating.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

Sort of perhaps, except that it has a 5W winter rating.

Compare the spec sheets. Low viscosity at low temps, low pour points. The viscosity curve is like many 0w-30s. I’ve reconstructed the curves with AI, PUP is pretty remarkable.

 

[kschachn]

Compare the spec sheets. Low viscosity at low temps, low pour points. The viscosity curve is like many 0w-30s. I’ve reconstructed the curves with AI, PUP is pretty remarkable.

Which is fine, but distinct from cranking and pumpability. Whatever the case it still did not earn a 0W rating.

Of course it’s irrelevant for most everyone unless you’re starting unaided below -30 or so.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

Which is fine, but distinct from cranking and pumpability. Whatever the case it still did not earn a 0W rating.

Of course it’s irrelevant for most everyone unless you’re starting unaided below -30 or so.

Can a manufacturer label something with a higher rating even if the product achieves “better”? If so, could that have been what happened there, just to advertise the more common grade?

 

[kschachn]

Can a manufacturer label something with a higher rating even if the product achieves “better”? If so, could that have been what happened there, just to advertise the more common grade?

Not if they are following what the SAE requires for labeling.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

Not if they are following what the SAE requires for labeling.

MRV is 11000 cP at -22F, better than many 0w30s.

 

[Hohn]

So then the recommendation if this is a concern is should be after the first hour of running, not 500 miles, at that point, why bother.

In a test cell environment, I can load the engine to 100% maximum load and keep it there for an hour straight. On the street, it is impossible to sustain anything like 100% engine load for more than a few seconds. A proper break-in on a compressed timeframe can really only be done on a dyno (engine or chassis, even even then not an inertial chassis dyno like a Dynojet 248, but an eddy current braking dyno more like a Superflow or Mustang).

Because of the rapid, aggressive break-in the dyno provides, the wear metals will stabilize pretty quickly. IN a street car that can't be loaded so aggressively, the break in takes longer and more total wear metals are generated. Yes, an aggressive break-in generates less total wear.

My feeling has always been - this is what an oil filter is for. The manufacturers aren't telling you to do it b/c it's not critical. I've had a lot of vehicles and none had early oil changes and none had issues in my ownership, including several with long term/high mileage ownership histories. It's just unnecessary IMHO but I get it makes folks feel good and if that's it, great, feel good! It certainly isn't hurting a thing to do it. But it's also not hurting a thing to not do it. Case in point, current VW Sportwagen, first change around 8K miles, 6 years/112K @ >2x stock power, tracked, etc.....no issues w/r to oil without that "critcial" first 500 mile change.

"Critical" is your characterization, not mine.

Early oil changes during break-in on a street vehicle do help reduce total wear. But, as you point out, they are not "critical" for an engine to have a long and happy life.

 

[TiGeo]

In a test cell environment, I can load the engine to 100% maximum load and keep it there for an hour straight. On the street, it is impossible to sustain anything like 100% engine load for more than a few seconds. A proper break-in on a compressed timeframe can really only be done on a dyno (engine or chassis, even even then not an inertial chassis dyno like a Dynojet 248, but an eddy current braking dyno more like a Superflow or Mustang).

Because of the rapid, aggressive break-in the dyno provides, the wear metals will stabilize pretty quickly. IN a street car that can't be loaded so aggressively, the break in takes longer and more total wear metals are generated. Yes, an aggressive break-in generates less total wear.


"Critical" is your characterization, not mine.

Early oil changes during break-in on a street vehicle do help reduce total wear. But, as you point out, they are not "critical" for an engine to have a long and happy life.

Are these data available somewhere?

 

[Hohn]

Are these data available somewhere?

Not to the public, no.


Not to make this into a "how to break in your engine" thread, but if you want to find the evidence to support aggressive full load break-in as beneficial for the engine, there's a lot of evidence already out there.

 

[kschachn]

MRV is 11000 cP at -22F, better than many 0w30s.

Could be. But everything in J300 must be met, including things such as the borderline pumping index. Once the oil is put under shear as it happens near the pump pickup you then see differences in formulation.

 

[Averroes]

Struggle? There’s none to be had.

Under warranty? Dealer trips. If not, use any OTS oil and a quality filter. Change at 5k miles.

Want nothing but the best: HPL or redline, any quality filter. 5k changes (because nothing is too good for your car). Done.