2015 BMW N20 X1 UOA 5K MILES NON-EURO OIL

[walterjay]

In short...I like QSUD

 

[Eugenius]

Here's the Castrol announcement:
https://www.castrol.com/en_us/unite...nouncements/recommended-bmw-oil-supplier.html

The point is that the performance requirements for the Euro OEM approvals are higher than for the API stuff, and that's always been the case. The ACEA approvals are foundational for those OEM approvals, similar to how the API stuff is foundational for Dexos, Ford's WSS-xxx approvals, the FCA/Stellantis MS-xx approvals...etc. On average, the Euro approvals are significantly more strict and have much more extensive testing than the North American ones.

On the UOA's, unfortunately, there's a lot about the formulation that you won't see in a UOA, since it only shows metallic additives and blenders are using more and more organics in more recent formulas to meet the performance targets and get around limits on metallic additives that have been imposed either directly (like the phosphorous limit) or indirectly through traits that may be impacted (like SA) by other aspects of formulation. Even deposit control can be an issue here with additive selection.

One must be extremely careful not to try and read too much into what is presented by an inexpensive UOA, which has significant limitations in terms of what it can tell you. Even the important stuff, like fuel dilution, can be wildly inaccurate if you use a lab (like Blackstone) that doesn't use GC to measure it. That's why I like to point people to Doug Hillary's article on the main page of the site, which goes into the utility of UOA's and what their limits are: https://bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/

I used to work as a government contractor for many years. Believe me, "awarded" does mean much until actual money started flowing. So depending on the contract with Shell, BP might not have started even formulating the oil for BMW.

I am pretty aware that UOA is just a wild estimation of what is actually in the oil, but still at least it gives a hint.

Also in my opinion, you too concerned about the European approvals, and I do not think it matters that much. It does, but not totally what should dictate to pick one oil over another. Shell, BP, Exxon are global conglomerates, and they do not make oil just for specific markets. They just create new labels for the same oil. It is all about marketing. This is what they are doing - make more money and beat compactors.
Shell will not be spending much money to get European approvals for the US market. It is just not smart for them to do, to waste money.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

I used to work as a government contractor for many years. Believe me, "awarded" does mean much until actual money started flowing. So depending on the contract with Shell, BP might not have started even formulating the oil for BMW.

IIRC based on @Doug Hillary's posts, European car manufacturers have at least two sources (most of the time two) for lubricants. Just because BMW awarded Castrol a new contract doesn't mean that they cut ties completely with Shell. My two cents is that Castrol makes a better automotive lubricant than Shell. When it comes to heavy industry and commercial applications, well, that's a different story.

 

[4WD]

and this is what you get here when GM pushes for better standards in 20’ & 30’s

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/dexos-1-gen-3-info.322599/

 

[kschachn]

Also in my opinion, you too concerned about the European approvals, and I do not think it matters that much. It does, but not totally what should dictate to pick one oil over another. Shell, BP, Exxon are global conglomerates, and they do not make oil just for specific markets. They just create new labels for the same oil. It is all about marketing. This is what they are doing - make more money and beat compactors.

Except that the approval has the guaranteed performance regardless of brand.

 

[OVERKILL]

I used to work as a government contractor for many years. Believe me, "awarded" does mean much until actual money started flowing. So depending on the contract with Shell, BP might not have started even formulating the oil for BMW.

It started in February of 2021. We are lucky to have a BMW tech on this board, @mightymousetech and he made a thread about the change:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/bmw-returning-to-castrol.333410/

He posted a shot from his dealership in February that showed the Castrol truck backing in.

I am pretty aware that UOA is just a wild estimation of what is actually in the oil, but still at least it gives a hint.

Well, in the post I responded to you were implying that you could glean useful information about the differences in how oils were formulated and performed from them. Clearly, that's not the case. You will get some basic information, but nothing of high value pertaining to how the product was blended or data that's sufficient to allow you to contrast wear control and the like.

Also in my opinion, you too concerned about the European approvals, and I do not think it matters that much.

It certainly matters when dealing with a vehicle under warranty when the manufacturer stipulates an approved product. But I watch them more for the level of performance of the finished product. An oil capable of jumping through the most hoops is going to be a better product than one that's just got your basic Joe Blow API approval on it, which even a cheap Group II+ can meet.

It does, but not totally what should dictate to pick one oil over another.

Well, it in fact does. If you have two 0w-40's and one is just API SN and the other one has the Mercedes, VW and Porsche A40 approval, these oils are not equal. One has a much higher level of proven performance attached to it than the other.

Shell, BP, Exxon are global conglomerates, and they do not make oil just for specific markets. They just create new labels for the same oil. It is all about marketing. This is what they are doing - make more money and beat compactors.

I'm not sure what perceived point made you feel you are addressing here? They produce a ton of completely different products depending on the target audience/market. Spend a few seconds comparing PDS sheets for some of the oils and you'd have to be Stevie Wonder for this not to be readily apparent. Mobil makes three wildly different 0w-40's for example. Heck, they have multiple product lines with the same grades in them that have completely different formulations. Now, they certainly produce "Global" formulations. Mobil 1 FS 0w-40 is the same worldwide, sold as one of their Euro lubes, whether you are in Chicago or Dubai.

Now, that's not the same as say Shell selling their API SP/GF-6 Dexos 5w-30 as Pennzoil, Quaker State and Helix, but they do make multiple different 5w-30's with very different specifications, depending on the certifications the product holds and the market it is targeted at. An A3/B4 5w-30 will have to have an HTHS of 3.5cP or higher and a Noack below 10%, while your AP SP version will have an HTHS of ~3.0cP and can have a Noack of up to 13% and still be Dexos compliant. Those will not be similar oils, despite being the same grade.

Shell will not be spending much money to get European approvals for the US market. It is just not smart for them to do, to waste money.

Why would Shell have to get different European approvals for the US market? They make a portfolio of Euro lubes, sold as Helix in Europe, sold as Pennzoil here. Nobody has implied that this wasn't the case, so I'm unsure as to the genesis of that inference?

The point is that Euro lubes; lubricants formulated to meet the European OEM approvals, are forced to jump through more hoops than oils simply blended for API/ILSAC and domestic OEM approvals. That's why Euro approvals are typically absent, with the exception of the odd ACEA approval, from the bottles of those products.

 

[Eugenius]

It started in February of 2021. We are lucky to have a BMW tech on this board, @mightymousetech and he made a thread about the change:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/bmw-returning-to-castrol.333410/

He posted a shot from his dealership in February that showed the Castrol truck backing in.

Well, in the post I responded to you were implying that you could glean useful information about the differences in how oils were formulated and performed from them. Clearly, that's not the case. You will get some basic information, but nothing of high value pertaining to how the product was blended or data that's sufficient to allow you to contrast wear control and the like.

It certainly matters when dealing with a vehicle under warranty when the manufacturer stipulates an approved product. But I watch them more for the level of performance of the finished product. An oil capable of jumping through the most hoops is going to be a better product than one that's just got your basic Joe Blow API approval on it, which even a cheap Group II+ can meet.

Well, it in fact does. If you have two 0w-40's and one is just API SN and the other one has the Mercedes, VW and Porsche A40 approval, these oils are not equal. One has a much higher level of proven performance attached to it than the other.

I'm not sure what perceived point made you feel you are addressing here? They produce a ton of completely different products depending on the target audience/market. Spend a few seconds comparing PDS sheets for some of the oils and you'd have to be Stevie Wonder for this not to be readily apparent. Mobil makes three wildly different 0w-40's for example. Heck, they have multiple product lines with the same grades in them that have completely different formulations. Now, they certainly produce "Global" formulations. Mobil 1 FS 0w-40 is the same worldwide, sold as one of their Euro lubes, whether you are in Chicago or Dubai.

Now, that's not the same as say Shell selling their API SP/GF-6 Dexos 5w-30 as Pennzoil, Quaker State and Helix, but they do make multiple different 5w-30's with very different specifications, depending on the certifications the product holds and the market it is targeted at. An A3/B4 5w-30 will have to have an HTHS of 3.5cP or higher and a Noack below 10%, while your AP SP version will have an HTHS of ~3.0cP and can have a Noack of up to 13% and still be Dexos compliant. Those will not be similar oils, despite being the same grade.

Why would Shell have to get different European approvals for the US market? They make a portfolio of Euro lubes, sold as Helix in Europe, sold as Pennzoil here. Nobody has implied that this wasn't the case, so I'm unsure as to the genesis of that inference?

The point is that Euro lubes; lubricants formulated to meet the European OEM approvals, are forced to jump through more hoops than oils simply blended for API/ILSAC and domestic OEM approvals. That's why Euro approvals are typically absent, with the exception of the odd ACEA approval, from the bottles of those products.

Do not get me wrong. By saying the same oil, I mean the same hydrocracked base, same patented additives. I do not argue that the exact formulation can be slightly different from the same manufacture, same applications, but created for different markets.
I do not argue that there are oils from the same manufacture but different specification and approvals, can be very different. We all can compare SDS for M1 EP 5W30 and M1 EP 10W30 and find they are indeed different.

Only what I was trying to say from the first post, that BMW FE oil which is an approved oil and suppose to guarantee the performance for the application in twin turbo DI BMW engines, in my mind does not guarantee anything with that low-SAPS and dropped TBN to 3 after 5k Miles. I truly do not believe it will last 10K recommended by BMW OCI. Even it came from BS labs, I still can rely on it at some extent. And there multiple VAO/UOA like this on BMW message boards that say do not trust the approvals and long recommended OCIs.

Also all these approvals are targeting Eco factors of the oils, specially it is very strict in Europe. So longer OCIs, very light oil 0W20, 0W16, very low-SAPS. It does not compute how it cant last long OCI.

I rather do shorter OCIs and move PAO oils rather follow "recommended" OCIs and prey that the approved oil will meet the performance requirements . Again they are recommended and approved, because a manufacture does care after warranty expired, so you can buy/lease a new car or deal with engine problems after warranty, which is at that point is your problem, not the manufacture.

 

[edyvw]

1. BMW started to source oil from Castrol 02/2021. Bottles indicate switch. Shell stays supplier in the rest of the world.
2. It is not same oil! More detailed analysis indicates that all TPT oils are of specific recipe. Some are combination of GTL and PAO.
3. BMW tests oil for approvals now on N20 engine and includes more stringent oxidation requirements, specific timing chain test (not generic timing chain test on Toyota engine that doesn’t have timing chain issues, which is the case with API SP). Also test includes 15k miles OCI (it is irrelevant that OCI in US is 10k. Approval requires 15k).
4. Whether someone runs oil 3. 5, 7.5 or 10k is absolutely irrelevant for this topic. Oil in this UOA got beaten and that is it.

 

[kschachn]

Do not get me wrong. By saying the same oil, I mean the same hydrocracked base, same patented additives. I do not argue that the exact formulation can be slightly different from the same manufacture, same applications, but created for different markets.

I don't think we got you wrong as much as you got you wrong.

 

[OVERKILL]

Do not get me wrong. By saying the same oil, I mean the same hydrocracked base, same patented additives. I do not argue that the exact formulation can be slightly different from the same manufacture, same applications, but created for different markets.

The applications are dictated by the approvals. An oil formulated for SP/GF-6 will use a different base oil blend and additive package than one formulated for say Mercedes/VW, even if the grade on the bottle is the same.

I do not argue that there are oils from the same manufacture but different specification and approvals, can be very different. We all can compare SDS for M1 EP 5W30 and M1 EP 10W30 and find they are indeed different.

Those are different grades within the same family. A better example would be looking at M1 ESP 0w-20 and M1 EP 0w-20. EP is totally PAO based, much lower VI because of that, has significantly different levels of Zinc and Phosphorous. The former is formulated targeting AP/ILSAC and Dexos with a bias toward extended drain intervals, the latter ACEA C5, DexosD, Mercedes 229.71 and VW 508/509.

Only what I was trying to say from the first post, that BMW FE oil which is an approved oil and suppose to guarantee the performance for the application in twin turbo DI BMW engines, in my mind does not guarantee anything with that low-SAPS and dropped TBN to 3 after 5k Miles. I truly do not believe it will last 10K recommended by BMW OCI. Even it came from BS labs, I still can rely on it at some extent. And there multiple VAO/UOA like this on BMW message boards that say do not trust the approvals and long recommended OCIs.

This is where knowing the details of the OEM testing protocols would be beneficial. I've posted Porsche A40 before, the details of which are extremely impressive. It comes down to whether you trust BMW's certification process as being adequate or not, and without knowing the details, that's harder to do. But we DO know they have those tests, which are run on this specific engine.

Also all these approvals are targeting Eco factors of the oils, specially it is very strict in Europe. So longer OCIs, very light oil 0W20, 0W16, very low-SAPS. It does not compute how it cant last long OCI.

As long as there isn't fuel dilution, the grade isn't much of an issue with respect to long term durability of the lubricant. Whether it's a 5w-40 or 0w-20, if it is getting contaminated at the same rate, uses similar base oils and additized in a similar manner, its going to have roughly the same durability. Base oil selection (oxidation resistance) and blend (VII content plays in here) are components in how long an oil will hold-up, but these also need to be matched by an additive package that is capable of going the distance. I'll not say your concern about 10,000 mile OCI's with this particular lube are unfounded, given the low TBN, but that then calls into question the thoroughness of the OEM testing, assuming the product is actually OE approved, rather than the capability of a lubricant to go the distance.

I rather do shorter OCIs and move PAO oils rather follow "recommended" OCIs and prey that the approved oil will meet the performance requirements . Again they are recommended and approved, because a manufacture does care after warranty expired, so you can buy/lease a new car or deal with engine problems after warranty, which is at that point is your problem, not the manufacture.

The whole point of the approval is to confirm compliance with the performance requirements. This again brings us back to the thoroughness of the testing regimen. In your case, it's unfortunate that we don't know what was used (your UOA thread). In this thread, we do know what was used, and know that the product experienced significant viscosity loss and was also not an approved lubricant for the application.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I saw all that. It is still an issue. They lock even after they were primed after OFHG change.
It is lubrication issue and tech I was talking to basically said BMW is trying to guess the issue. However, this all started after switch to lighter oils. I have seen numerous E90 335 on track with N55 with no issues, and then you have X5’s that have failed bearings. You had numerous N55 racking up good mileage just for this to become an issue in last few years. It could be several variables that contributing to a problem.
IDK, but in that engine I personally wouldn’t use anything lighter then XW40.

I thought it was the change in the design of the oil pump. Some sort of electrically controlled variable displacement vs fixed. I'd have to look at the part numbers in RealOEM and see if I can find a revised p/n.

Edit: Quick search shows same P/N for most of that decade.

Perhaps it's the start-stop system in combination with how hard people would accelerate off the line.

 

[Eugenius]

The applications are dictated by the approvals. An oil formulated for SP/GF-6 will use a different base oil blend and additive package than one formulated for say Mercedes/VW, even if the grade on the bottle is the same.

Those are different grades within the same family. A better example would be looking at M1 ESP 0w-20 and M1 EP 0w-20. EP is totally PAO based, much lower VI because of that, has significantly different levels of Zinc and Phosphorous. The former is formulated targeting AP/ILSAC and Dexos with a bias toward extended drain intervals, the latter ACEA C5, DexosD, Mercedes 229.71 and VW 508/509.

This is where knowing the details of the OEM testing protocols would be beneficial. I've posted Porsche A40 before, the details of which are extremely impressive. It comes down to whether you trust BMW's certification process as being adequate or not, and without knowing the details, that's harder to do. But we DO know they have those tests, which are run on this specific engine.

As long as there isn't fuel dilution, the grade isn't much of an issue with respect to long term durability of the lubricant. Whether it's a 5w-40 or 0w-20, if it is getting contaminated at the same rate, uses similar base oils and additized in a similar manner, its going to have roughly the same durability. Base oil selection (oxidation resistance) and blend (VII content plays in here) are components in how long an oil will hold-up, but these also need to be matched by an additive package that is capable of going the distance. I'll not say your concern about 10,000 mile OCI's with this particular lube are unfounded, given the low TBN, but that then calls into question the thoroughness of the OEM testing, assuming the product is actually OE approved, rather than the capability of a lubricant to go the distance.

The whole point of the approval is to confirm compliance with the performance requirements. This again brings us back to the thoroughness of the testing regimen. In your case, it's unfortunate that we don't know what was used (your UOA thread). In this thread, we do know what was used, and know that the product experienced significant viscosity loss and was also not an approved lubricant for the application.

Thank you very much for being patient with me and providing the detailed info. Much appreciated.

Some of my misconceptions and views have been shuttered to the point I need to reevaluate my knowledge of the subject.

I am an engineer myself and I have some interest in the lubrication tech as a hobby, as I am also an auto-DIYer and like to learn the automotive stuff

 

[edyvw]

I thought it was the change in the design of the oil pump. Some sort of electrically controlled variable displacement vs fixed. I'd have to look at the part numbers in RealOEM and see if I can find a revised p/n.

Edit: Quick search shows same P/N for most of that decade.

Perhaps it's the start-stop system in combination with how hard people would accelerate off the line.

SS was not available on E70 X5, and I see suddenly a lot of them with this issue, while prior to 2016 or something like that, this was not an issue. It is very random. In M2 section at bimmerpost no one complains about this, same as in 135,/335 section. But then out of nowhere you have failed rod bearing on E70. Initially botched OFHG was suspect, butb master tech at one dealership told me it does not matter. It happens to them all the time.

 

[KEVINK0000]

More results soon. Samples to be sent to both labs next week.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Your QS uoa looks great! Good oil at a good price!

 

[KEVINK0000]

Your QS uoa looks great! Good oil at a good price!

Yes, but there are 5 pages of comments here saying I am going to damage the engine by using it. Time will tell. 2 more UOA coming soon, one to BS, one to OA.
Usage pattern of car was different, it will be interesting to see what each lab puts up.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Yes, but there are 5 pages of comments here saying I am going to damage the engine by using it. Time will tell. 2 more UOA coming soon, one to BS, one to OA.
Usage pattern of car was different, it will be interesting to see what each lab puts up.

Your UOAs won't show the condition of your bearings, turbo deposit formation, cam wear, etc. There is nothing like saving money on the lube to spend it on UOAs.

 

[kschachn]

Your UOAs won't show the condition of your bearings, turbo deposit formation, cam wear, etc. There is nothing like saving money on the lube to spend it on UOAs.

All the magical things people magically read into a $30 spectrographic analysis.

 

[BMW Dom]

Could’ve just run a ll-01 oil and called it a day, and not waste money on a UOA.

 

[KEVINK0000]

Again,

Its not about the money, gents.

I am sure this thread will get rather active soon.