2015 BMW N20 X1 UOA 5K MILES NON-EURO OIL

[KEVINK0000]

No GC, Motul, Ravenol, Liqui-Moly, M1. Plain old American QS. The Horror!

New formula QS Full Synthetic. Chosen for low SAPS formula to avoid LSPI potential issues. (I know N20 is not known for this but... Arizona heat and son's car. He talks about "brake boosting" from stoplights ). No posted HTHS on QS website, but 100c vis is high for SP 5w-30. Took a look at this oil due to 540i Rat (The Double- Horror) mentioning it and rating it in his rating with the highest rated rating anything ever rated. Looks good, even with an abundance of short trips, and apparent fuel dilution. This was the second fill of this oil. Previous to that was dealership bulk whatever. Comments welcome. I am sticking with this, it looks pretty robust, even with the weak vis from fuel content.

 

[JavierH19]

I really like that QS has a good bit of moly and it's known to give great wear numbers. Why not go for Pennzoil Platinum 0w-40 since its sp and euro rated so lspi is basically no concern. Get it for close to QS on walmart.com.

 

[KEVINK0000]

Javier,

That was actually on my list to try, if the QS result was bad in some way. Also, when we got the car and I started working on it, the PP euro was nowhere at a reasonable price, even online.

 

[kschachn]

But then again, as Blackstone themselves have stated there is no statistically significant difference in UOA results between any of the oils they have tested. A UOA is not the tool to measure comparative oil quality.

 

[KCJeep]

Lot of shear but isn't the X1 spec'd for a 20 grade anyway?

 

[edyvw]

You can run whatever you want, but three words: timing chain guides.
When they fail remember what you said: the Horror!

UOA is analysis of oil, not engine. Wear numbers don’t mean anything unless there is some unusual spike.

 

[KEVINK0000]

Yes, it was recently "updated" by BMW to use 20w. That is not shear in my opinion, its fuel. The flashpoint on that oil from QS spec sheet is 453. Blackstone's test for fuel is always questioned here. The N20 is known for fuel dilution, and I know there were short trips on this fill. The 100c vis is 11.6, this UOA shows 8.36. The timing chain has already been done. I like oil analysis, since I like to nerd out on this stuff. I know what statistics say, and what Blackstone has said about them. But I firmly believe you can derive useful information about wear patterns for your engine from these tests. And I know there have been decent UOA right before catastrophic failure. Like most things these days, you have to make your own decisions, and not simply rely on what statistics, or experts say.

 

[edyvw]

Yes, it was recently "updated" by BMW to use 20w. That is not shear in my opinion, its fuel. The flashpoint on that oil from QS spec sheet is 453. Blackstone's test for fuel is always questioned here. The N20 is known for fuel dilution, and I know there were short trips on this fill. The 100c vis is 11.6, this UOA shows 8.36. The timing chain has already been done. I like oil analysis, since I like to nerd out on this stuff. I know what statistics say, and what Blackstone has said about them. But I firmly believe you can derive useful information about wear patterns for your engine from these tests. And I know there have been decent UOA right before catastrophic failure. Like most things these days, you have to make your own decisions, and not simply rely on what statistics, or "experts" say.

You don’t have to put experts in quotation marks. Experts are experts, they are experts at what they do. Same like you are expert in whatever you do.
Timing chain might be done, but update improved things, did not resolved them.
For QS flash point held itself, and that shearing is from engine beating down oil. It is mechanical shearing not fuel dilution.
Also, you don’t have TAN. BMW engines are oxidation monsters, hence BMW approvals having most stringent oxidation requirements.
By the way, 2018 update of all LL specifications now requires N20 engine test not N52 engine test. So getting BMW approved oil means oil that was tested on the same engine you have.
Many people run ILSAC oils in BMW’s. Until VANOS creates issue, timing chain guides etc.

 

[KEVINK0000]

This is what makes these forums useful. Disagreement and differing points of view.

Most definitely there are experts, and there are "experts".

BMW's oxidation requirements have more to do with the interval they strive to achieve, than the engine characteristics. Has BMW ever called for a longer interval after a model has been at market for a time? I am not aware of any instance of this. New engine design, new (long) interval is announced, and of course BMW foots the bill for initial normal maint. After a couple of years the interval is shortened due to problems that crop up that you specify. Chains, Vanos, etc.

My 1992 M30 535i had what looked like half a burnt hamburger underneath the valve cover, on the head. I used a shop vac to remove it. The previous owner used the BMW interval as indicated by the service lights. It was dealer and then independent maintained, and had about 140k miles when I bought it and began maintaining it. BMW has a long history of overlong intervals. Remember Lifetime ATF in the mid-90s on a GM built trans? Ha! Not much has changed.

On a similar drive cycle, the 2015 N20 was running an oil temp about 30 degrees lower than in the N52 2011 car we also own. That N52 runs its oil and coolant hot as you know. You can make a case for oxidation on that N52 with no cooler.

I will never seek a long drain interval on the n20, with any oil I use in it.

I am not aware of the updated chain cartridges failing again. If you have a link, I would love to see it.

This oil did not shear much mechanically. It is fuel dilution that brought that vis. down so drastically. I will post more reports to hopefully get to the bottom of that. The wear metals actually do mean something.

 

[edyvw]

If you look any UOA that includes TAN you will see oxidation levels high in non LL oils after 5k. Still good, but high, and that is using MB229.5 oils and similar, not your off the shelf ILSAC.
I just saw UOA of Motul 5W40 X-Cess GEN2 with heavy track use after 5k in S55 and there is no hint of oxidation. But that is LL01.
If your oil temperature in N20 is 30 degrees lower than N52 than you have faulty DME or thermostat. N52 without oil cooler runs oil temperature around 230f. It fallows closely coolant temperature in hwy mode (there are 4 modes). If your temperature is 30 degrees lower, that means 200 degrees which should never be the case. I have on my N52 real oil cooler, not heat exchanger like N20, and oil temperature is still 230 as there is oil cooler thermostat. My Toyota Sienna runs oil temperature in 220-230 range and sometimes more.
And N20 is not fuel dilution monster. Fuel dilution monsters are first Gen VW FSI engines, current Honda 1.5T. Considering that is SOPUS oil, you would have flash point in 360-380f range if fuel dilution is an issue. You have mechanical shearing. Engine is beating down that oil. There is no any other way around.
Again, many people run those oils and then on bimmerfest or bimmerpost there is a thread: I got my VANOS values all messed up! How is this possible? It is absolute junk!

 

[KEVINK0000]

The conditions for the oil temp I am referring to are hwy/mixed use cycle of about 65 miles duration, with ambient around 108-110 degrees. The N52 was peaking around 240-245 oil temp, and the N20 was no higher than 220, mostly 210-215.

The DME and thermo in the X1 is fine. The N52 runs very hot oil at times.

The N20 is not a fuel dilution monster, but ANY turbo DFI engine is subject to more fuel dilution than previous types. This fill was subject to numerous short trip daily commutes. Any DFI engine becomes a candidate for FD in those conditions. Add turbo and you will get more.

Again, we can go around and around, but I disagree that the majority vis loss on this oil fill was mechanical, or that is was heavily oxidized in use.

The N52 was using Castrol 0w-40.

The next UOA will go to a different lab to get better FD numbers.

 

[KEVINK0000]

On second thought, I will send the sample to two labs, BS and another to get some idea of differences in methodology.

 

[KCJeep]

On second thought, I will send the sample to two labs, BS and another to get some idea of differences in methodology.

Good idea, Blackstone is notoriously bad at fuel dilution values. For now I'm with edyvw, with a flash point of 405 I don't believe you have that much fuel, unless Blackstone didn't get that right either.

 

[mightymousetech]

RE: fuel dilution. Have you had the N20 DME programming recall done yet? It addresses running rich and fuel dilution.

 

[edyvw]

The conditions for the oil temp I am referring to are hwy/mixed use cycle of about 65 miles duration, with ambient around 108-110 degrees. The N52 was peaking around 240-245 oil temp, and the N20 was no higher than 220, mostly 210-215.

The DME and thermo in the X1 is fine. The N52 runs very hot oil at times.

The N20 is not a fuel dilution monster, but ANY turbo DFI engine is subject to more fuel dilution than previous types. This fill was subject to numerous short trip daily commutes. Any DFI engine becomes a candidate for FD in those conditions. Add turbo and you will get more.

Again, we can go around and around, but I disagree that the majority vis loss on this oil fill was mechanical, or that is was heavily oxidized in use.

The N52 was using Castrol 0w-40.

The next UOA will go to a different lab to get better FD numbers.

Ambient temperature is not an issue. Only thing that will mess up oil temperature is altitude.
BMW then programmed oil temperature that low (210-215 is getting low). N52 does not run any hotter than other engines oil temperature wise, it is that N20 runs too low. Obviously they are attempting to address certain issue with such low oil temperature (again, my Toyota runs 115-117c oil temperature, same as my Tiguan and other vehicles). BMW did same trick with N/S63 to try to address valve stem, turbo lines etc. issues. Which is actually even worse. If that oil was beaten that much with such low oil temperature, that is really not good UOA, and yes it is horror.
But again, when BMW introduced updated LL approvals it increased oxidation requirements based on N20/26 engine tests and kept same OCI as before. So, without TAN value, you can only guess. BMW would disagree with you.
I know very well what are DI engines, I have one in VW, and I had before DI engines. Again, 405f does not indicate any excessive fuel dilution. Especially with the fact that SOPUS GTL based oils for whatever reasons show drop in flash point more than other oils even in port injected engines.
Your N20 is beating down that oil. In N20 best bet is low Zinc heavy oil. If I owned that engine, I would run Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40. Low ZInc, relatively heavy LL01 oil.
N52 is much more flexible engine than N20. So it is really not comparison as N52 can run pretty much anything.

 

[OVERKILL]

Blackstone does not measure fuel dilution. They infer it from flashpoint. What we've seen in the past are UOA's that show a dramatic drop in flashpoint, and viscosity, and Blackstone saying there is little to no fuel, which we know is incorrect. Sending the same sample to a lab that runs GC and all of a sudden you are seeing 5% fuel, which makes a lot more sense.

In this case of this UOA, I'm inclined to side with @edyvw in that the flashpoint has not dropped dramatically to indicate there is significant fuel. Resource Conserving engine oils do not have to pass the same rigorous mechanical shear resistance requirements that Euro lubes do, in fact there may not even be a shear resistance test, whereas it is well spelled out in the Euro oils, for example, these are from the Mercedes series of sequences:

 

[Oliveoil2]

Good on ya KevinK. This a great UOA and will work for easy 5-7k oci’s. Yes BMW and others will say “not a good idea” but you’ve done your research and made your point. And it doesn’t matter what synthetic oil you use, (with reasonable oci’s) the Chain guides are brittle and will fail on this engine. I hope the updated guides last longer.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

No GC, Motul, Ravenol, Liqui-Moly, M1. Plain old American QS. The Horror!

New formula QS Full Synthetic. Chosen for low SAPS formula to avoid LSPI potential issues. (I know N20 is not known for this but... Arizona heat and son's car. He talks about "brake boosting" from stoplights ). No posted HTHS on QS website, but 100c vis is high for SP 5w-30. Took a look at this oil due to 540i Rat (The Double- Horror) mentioning it and rating it in his rating with the highest rated rating anything ever rated. Looks good, even with an abundance of short trips, and apparent fuel dilution. This was the second fill of this oil. Previous to that was dealership bulk whatever. Comments welcome. I am sticking with this, it looks pretty robust, even with the weak vis from fuel content.
View attachment 83762

If it were my BMW, with a 2.0TGDI engine, I would run this in it: https://www.walmart.com/ip/seort/737859365.

It's API SP 5W-40 goodness.

 

[edyvw]

Good on ya KevinK. This a great UOA and will work for easy 5-7k oci’s. Yes BMW and others will say “not a good idea” but you’ve done your research and made your point. And it doesn’t matter what synthetic oil you use, (with reasonable oci’s) the Chain guides are brittle and will fail on this engine. I hope the updated guides last longer.

When your VANOS throws wrong values, or eccentric shaft sensor gets oxidation around, remember what you said.
And no, it is not good UOA.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

@edyvw it seems like I recommended the correct lubricant for @KEVINK0000's vehicle:

So why on earth he didn't the QS Euro 5W-40, when it's priced the same, or sometimes cheaper than the QS FS 5W-30 is beyond me.