Would a C3 Oil Protect a Timing Chain Better Than a C2 Oil?

[jtay2024]

Hi all.

As the title says really. For vehicles that are known to be prone to timing chain issues, would it be worth switching from the often recommended C2 oil to a C3 oil? I ask this as the requirement for C2 oil HTHS is only a minimum HTHS of 2.9 whereas the C3 oil minimum is 3.6.

Do you think a change in HTHS would actually benefit preventing timing chain wear?

Cheers!

 

[Jetronic]

No, HTHS or high shear viscosity doesn't seem to have a big effect What does have a big effect is the base oil viscosity. According to Nissan engineers, the viscosity index improver molecules are so large and long they get squeezed out from the roller pin contact area (no doubt shearing them if they are prone to this) and as a result the lubrication is left to the base oil. ZDDP does little to prevent timing chain wear, but Molybdenum seems to work well. Unfortunately, Moly seems to be contributing to deposit formation aswell so it's fairly limited in oils subject to severe deposit tests.

BTW, C3 minimum HTHS is 3.5 cP.

 

[buster]

I don't know what European spec tests for timing chain wear.

For API it's this:

https://www.swri.org/sites/default/files/sequence-x-test.pdf

 

[Kalle.J]

I don't know what European spec tests for timing chain wear.

Most MB 229 specs.
We don't rely on ACEA the same way.

 

[Cujet]

No, HTHS or high shear viscosity doesn't seem to have a big effect What does have a big effect is the base oil viscosity.

This is exactly correct. In fact over the last 70+ years, significant industrial testing has been performed to increase chain life. The results make sense too. Clean oil is essential. The more contaminated the oil, the faster the chains wear. Even carbon particulates reduce chain life. Lower viscosity kills chain life too. So much so, chain manufacturers started coating the pins to reduce wear rates. It was claimed that Ti additives increased chain life, but in the end, that did not seem to be a viable 'fix' for engines operating on 0W-20 oils. Chain wear remained front and center.

It has been said that oils with VII's also don't provide the same protection as the correct viscosity oil. In other words, a 0W-30 is not as good as as the ideal, a straight 30. With that in mind, the best oil for conventional (non coated) chains seems to be the higher viscosity choices, like 10W-30 or even 10W-40.

 

[jtay2024]

No, HTHS or high shear viscosity doesn't seem to have a big effect What does have a big effect is the base oil viscosity. According to Nissan engineers, the viscosity index improver molecules are so large and long they get squeezed out from the roller pin contact area (no doubt shearing them if they are prone to this) and as a result the lubrication is left to the base oil. ZDDP does little to prevent timing chain wear, but Molybdenum seems to work well. Unfortunately, Moly seems to be contributing to deposit formation aswell so it's fairly limited in oils subject to severe deposit tests.

BTW, C3 minimum HTHS is 3.5 cP.

I don't know what European spec tests for timing chain wear.

For API it's this:

https://www.swri.org/sites/default/files/sequence-x-test.pdf

This is exactly correct. In fact over the last 70+ years, significant industrial testing has been performed to increase chain life. The results make sense too. Clean oil is essential. The more contaminated the oil, the faster the chains wear. Even carbon particulates reduce chain life. Lower viscosity kills chain life too. So much so, chain manufacturers started coating the pins to reduce wear rates. It was claimed that Ti additives increased chain life, but in the end, that did not seem to be a viable 'fix' for engines operating on 0W-20 oils. Chain wear remained front and center.

It has been said that oils with VII's also don't provide the same protection as the correct viscosity oil. In other words, a 0W-30 is not as good as as the ideal, a straight 30. With that in mind, the best oil for conventional (non coated) chains seems to be the higher viscosity choices, like 10W-30 or even 10W-40.

Interesting info! Thanks all. I'll have a read of that chain test document. So from what I have gathered from these posts, the best would be to try and step up a grade (Say from 0w30 to a 10w40) and try to find an oil with a higher Molybdenum count? I imagine that would likely take it outside of the C rating though as it could cause DPF deposits?

Thanks!

 

[jtay2024]

I have also done what I should have done first and searched this question. (When I created the thread it didn't recommend this post as a potential similar question).

They have also said the same thing. Higher viscosity and a smaller spread (E.g. 10w40 rather than say 0w30).

Thread 'Motor oil choices for optimum timing chain life'

Jul 2, 2021

This is my (probably very incomplete) summary of a bunch of threads here on BITOG regarding optimum practice for longest timing chain life.

Desirable Properties of Oil:
- As thick as possible for hot operating conditions (i.e. xW-40 > xW-30 > xW-20)
- As thin as possible for cold-weather starts (i.e. 0W-x > 5W-x > 10W-x > 20W-x)
- As little viscosity spread as possible (i.e. 5W-20 or 10W-30 > 0W-20 or 0W-30 or 0W-40 or 5W-30 or 20W-50)

These properties are somewhat contradictory - an oil that's both thin enough for cold weather and thick enough for hot weather will have a large viscosity...

• Number_35
• Replies: 56
• Forum: Mechanical/Maintenance Forum

 

[Kalle.J]

Interesting info! Thanks all. I'll have a read of that chain test document. So from what I have gathered from these posts, the best would be to try and step up a grade (Say from 0w30 to a 10w40) and try to find an oil with a higher Molybdenum count? I imagine that would likely take it outside of the C rating though as it could cause DPF deposits?

Thanks!

Why don't you start with what engine you want oil for.

 

[Kalle.J]

Answer will probably be 229.51/229.52 with some VW and BMW approvals.

 

[jtay2024]

Why don't you start with what engine you want oil for.

Because it's an overall kind of question. There are various makes and brands in the UK and Europe that suffer with chain issues. If someone I know ends up with one of those cars it's good to know what may help them out to keep their chain good.

 

[edyvw]

Answer will probably be 229.51/229.52 with some VW and BMW approvals.

BMW has toughest timing chain test. All BMW specifications since 2020 must pass timing chain test being done on N20 engine.

 

[jtay2024]

BMW has toughest timing chain test. All BMW specifications since 2020 must pass timing chain test being done on N20 engine.

Is the N20 a petrol engine?

From what I can see with this advice then a LL-04 oil would be best for a diesel engine that suffers chain wear?

 

[jtay2024]

Answer will probably be 229.51/229.52 with some VW and BMW approvals.

BMW has toughest timing chain test. All BMW specifications since 2020 must pass timing chain test being done on N20 engine.

An oil like this would likely be very good then. It has a 40w rather than 30w. It has a BMW LL approval, and a MB 229.51 approval. Sounds likely this would be one of the better options for timing chain wear prone engines.

*Edit* - Added link to the oil that I was talking to about when I said "An oil like this would likely be very good then"

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-162053-shell-helix-hx8-ect-5w-40-fully-synthetic-engine-oil.aspx

 

[ChrisD46]

No, HTHS or high shear viscosity doesn't seem to have a big effect What does have a big effect is the base oil viscosity. According to Nissan engineers, the viscosity index improver molecules are so large and long they get squeezed out from the roller pin contact area (no doubt shearing them if they are prone to this) and as a result the lubrication is left to the base oil. ZDDP does little to prevent timing chain wear, but Molybdenum seems to work well. Unfortunately, Moly seems to be contributing to deposit formation aswell so it's fairly limited in oils subject to severe deposit tests.

BTW, C3 minimum HTHS is 3.5 cP.

Wouldn’t a Euro oil (like M1 ESP) with MB , VW , Porche , etc. approvals address timing chain wear ?

 

[edyvw]

An oil like this would likely be very good then. It has a 40w rather than 30w. It has a BMW LL approval, and a MB 229.51 approval. Sounds likely this would be one of the better options for timing chain wear prone engines.

It will be good.

 

[Cujet]

Wouldn’t a Euro oil (like M1 ESP) with MB , VW , Porche , etc. approvals address timing chain wear ?

With the unreal number of chain wear related failures in recent decades, I'm not at all sure those tests result in real world user successes. BMW, just to name one manufacturer, (there are many others) went over the edge with regard to OCI's. It comes as no surprise to any thinking individual when these engines show up with sludge and chain problems.

The oil may pass the test, but the problems remain.

Keep your oil clean, and use adequate viscosity if you want maximum chain life. The guys that get 1M miles from engines known to have chain issues, always choose wisely

 

[Kalle.J]

An oil like this would likely be very good then. It has a 40w rather than 30w. It has a BMW LL approval, and a MB 229.51 approval. Sounds likely this would be one of the better options for timing chain wear prone engines.

*Edit* - Added link to the oil that I was talking to about when I said "An oil like this would likely be very good then"

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-162053-shell-helix-hx8-ect-5w-40-fully-synthetic-engine-oil.aspx

Sure but you can't fix weak timing chains with oil.
VW FSI engine family had, broke the chain while parked in gear and handbrake with minimum incline.
All 229.X oils fulfills the same timing chain test. Don't know the specifics for BMW LL04 or how that test compares.
Short OCI is the easiest way to keep chain wear to a minimum.

 

[jtay2024]

Sure but you can't fix weak timing chains with oil.
VW FSI engine family had, broke the chain while parked in gear and handbrake with minimum incline.
All 229.X oils fulfills the same timing chain test. Don't know the specifics for BMW LL04 or how that test compares.
Short OCI is the easiest way to keep chain wear to a minimum.

Good point. Ideally though it's best to pair a decent frequency with the best possible oil.

 

[Kalle.J]

ops

 

[Cujet]

Sure but you can't fix weak timing chains with oil.

What's 'weak'? A Hyundai chain or parts from China? The Ford 5.4 is an example of a chain that will fail at 100K miles with the required 5W-20 at 10K OCI's. And yet will last 900K miles with 10W-40 synthetic with 5K OCI's.

The 5.4 used a standard industrial/automotive grade chain, as do the majority of engines. One method provides inadequate lubrication. The other method keeps it clean and provides adequate viscosity. Today's best engines are different, with coated pins. They last and the chains do not wear rapidly, until the coating wears through. Then it's off to the races...