World Premiere. Mazda CX-60.
- Thread starter PimTac
- Start date
I don't care for most of what BMW does, but at least the front end of that is appealing to me. I still don't care for the styling of most things Mazda.
It is great that Mazda depends on the mechanical way to improve the handling rather than electrical one, which gives more reliability and consistency.
Mazda has had a lot of issues with newer things. Im interested, but will hold off until a while.
My prime's awd sucked for anything but crawling speeds.
Well that article clarifies things since it looks like a copy of a Mazda presentation. 8 speed automatic. ( See below )
The problem with a lot of these automotive sites is that they are carbon copies of each other. If you read one and go to another it is the same exact write up. Whether it’s bots or whoever, any error or wrong information gets pushed out onto dozens of these sites.
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Mazda is definitely trying though I think luxury car buyers will stick with brands they know. There is also that badge envy thing.
I’m surprised nobody has talked about the dash covering. It looks really good but if one has dirty hands or kids that cloth like material might be a bear to clean. This is definitely not a instrument panel where you can spray interior Detailer and wipe it all down.
I get picky on shiny stuff inside the cockpit and those metal look door garnishes stick out in my opinion. I wish they weren’t there to start with. Seeing one in person might change my mind though.
Okay, after reading into that press release a bit more I got confused on the transmission. On page 27 it calls it a 8 speed transmission but on page 31 it says it’s a 8 speed without a torque converter. It doesn’t specifically say it’s a dual clutch either. I wonder if this is the Toyota transmission or a version of it?
From the press brief:
Mazda’s new eight-speed automatic transmission offers drivers smooth and responsive gear shifting with clear, smooth gear steps and a wide range, achieving the right balance of dynamic and environmental performance.
The new transmission shifts gears in the same manner as a torque converter transmission – via planetary gears and multi-plate clutches – but it does not have an hydraulic converter as an input clutch, rather, a multi-plate clutch as well as an integrated electric motor/generator.
By replacing the torque converter with a clutch, the torque of the engine and motor is transmitted directly, with fast and rhythmic shifting much like a manual transmission.
In addition, the clutch’s friction transmission and cooling functions have been evolved to achieve smooth starting and high efficiency.
The Mazda CX-60 e-Skyactiv PHEV’s hybrid powertrain allows for the independent power mixing of the petrol engine and electric motor, and the new transmission helps to implement this smoothly at all speeds.
The compact design of Mazda’s unique eight-speed transmission and the optimal layout of the entire powertrain effects a smaller transmission tunnel space, minimising the impact on the pedal box space and allowing for an ideal driving position.
From the press brief:
Mazda’s new eight-speed automatic transmission offers drivers smooth and responsive gear shifting with clear, smooth gear steps and a wide range, achieving the right balance of dynamic and environmental performance.
The new transmission shifts gears in the same manner as a torque converter transmission – via planetary gears and multi-plate clutches – but it does not have an hydraulic converter as an input clutch, rather, a multi-plate clutch as well as an integrated electric motor/generator.
By replacing the torque converter with a clutch, the torque of the engine and motor is transmitted directly, with fast and rhythmic shifting much like a manual transmission.
In addition, the clutch’s friction transmission and cooling functions have been evolved to achieve smooth starting and high efficiency.
The Mazda CX-60 e-Skyactiv PHEV’s hybrid powertrain allows for the independent power mixing of the petrol engine and electric motor, and the new transmission helps to implement this smoothly at all speeds.
The compact design of Mazda’s unique eight-speed transmission and the optimal layout of the entire powertrain effects a smaller transmission tunnel space, minimising the impact on the pedal box space and allowing for an ideal driving position.
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It sounds like a conventional automatic but they've replaced the torque converter with a clutch system, perhaps due to the use of the integrated electric motor/generator.
This is the ZF 8HP version:
To quote the article:
Found here:
https://www.nwtgearboxes.co.uk/2015/11/26/zf-8hp-at-transmission-moves-to-next-generation/
06 POWERTRAINS
Taking a further step towards realising its ‘Sustainable Zoom-Zoom 2030’ declaration, Mazda has set a goal to electrify all vehicles it produces by 2030. Hence the new Mazda CX-60 not only launches the company’s first PHEV, but also includes 48V Mazda M Hybrid Boost technology in its line-up. The all-new Mazda CX-60 adopts Mazda’s Skyactiv Multi-Solution Scalable Architecture for its longitudinal power units. This makes it possible to take further steps in electrification and satisfy environmental requirements with the company’s newly developed in-line six-cylinder petrol and diesel engines, as well as Mazda M Hybrid Boost vehicles and PHEVs. The Mazda CX-60’s longitudinal powertrain format offers many advantages. These include the ability to mount motors and batteries of different sizes in the same layout for both the Mazda M Hybrid Boost vehicles and PHEV versions, and the facility to place the motor on the same axis as the engine and transmission. The Mazda CX-60 powertrain line-up features three new engines: Mazda’s first PHEV -a 2.5 litre, four-cylinder e-Skyactiv G petrol unit with electrification technology, and two straight-six engines: a 3.3 litre e-Skyactiv D diesel unit and a 3.0 litre e-Skyactiv X petrol engine. All three powerplants are mated to a new eight-speed automatic transmission and Mazda’s i-Activ All-Wheel Drive system. Mazda Intelligent Drive Select (Mi-Drive) offers a choice of four drive modes (plus EV mode for the PHEV) to provide optimum control and driving pleasure in every driving scenario. The six-cylinder engines were developed based on the ‘right sizing’ concept, which calls for optimising displacement to improve fuel and power efficiency. Combining eight-speed dual-clutch automatic transmission with the electrification of Mazda’s 48V mild hybrid system, M Hybrid Boost, all three units are designed to dramatically improve power delivery and driving pleasure, while at the same time enhancing environmental performance
you will find this text at the beginning of chapter 6 of the presskit. it is the only mention of dual clutch of the entire thing. that is why it was hard to find. i had to read the entire thing.
Taking a further step towards realising its ‘Sustainable Zoom-Zoom 2030’ declaration, Mazda has set a goal to electrify all vehicles it produces by 2030. Hence the new Mazda CX-60 not only launches the company’s first PHEV, but also includes 48V Mazda M Hybrid Boost technology in its line-up. The all-new Mazda CX-60 adopts Mazda’s Skyactiv Multi-Solution Scalable Architecture for its longitudinal power units. This makes it possible to take further steps in electrification and satisfy environmental requirements with the company’s newly developed in-line six-cylinder petrol and diesel engines, as well as Mazda M Hybrid Boost vehicles and PHEVs. The Mazda CX-60’s longitudinal powertrain format offers many advantages. These include the ability to mount motors and batteries of different sizes in the same layout for both the Mazda M Hybrid Boost vehicles and PHEV versions, and the facility to place the motor on the same axis as the engine and transmission. The Mazda CX-60 powertrain line-up features three new engines: Mazda’s first PHEV -a 2.5 litre, four-cylinder e-Skyactiv G petrol unit with electrification technology, and two straight-six engines: a 3.3 litre e-Skyactiv D diesel unit and a 3.0 litre e-Skyactiv X petrol engine. All three powerplants are mated to a new eight-speed automatic transmission and Mazda’s i-Activ All-Wheel Drive system. Mazda Intelligent Drive Select (Mi-Drive) offers a choice of four drive modes (plus EV mode for the PHEV) to provide optimum control and driving pleasure in every driving scenario. The six-cylinder engines were developed based on the ‘right sizing’ concept, which calls for optimising displacement to improve fuel and power efficiency. Combining eight-speed dual-clutch automatic transmission with the electrification of Mazda’s 48V mild hybrid system, M Hybrid Boost, all three units are designed to dramatically improve power delivery and driving pleasure, while at the same time enhancing environmental performance
you will find this text at the beginning of chapter 6 of the presskit. it is the only mention of dual clutch of the entire thing. that is why it was hard to find. i had to read the entire thing.
Their current transmission has a torque converter but from what I’ve understood it is small. A clutch is built into it. The transmission locks up very early on as in around 5mph or so. This is what I have and it does feel more direct than a regular automatic.
This new transmission sounds like they eliminated the torque converter and are using electric clutches?
Anyway, leave it to Mazda. They do engineer some interesting stuff with a mix of old tech and new tech.
This new transmission sounds like they eliminated the torque converter and are using electric clutches?
Anyway, leave it to Mazda. They do engineer some interesting stuff with a mix of old tech and new tech.
I have been very pleased with my 2019 CX-5 with the 2.5L Turbo. If it didn't only have about 15,000 miles on it at this point I may seriously consider the new CX-60.
I would however like to see AWD as an option, with the system being primarily RWD with power applied to the front wheels when slippage of the rears is detected. Their current AWD works just the opposite and does exhibit some torque steer.
And another thing: I sure hope Mazda's engineering have redesigned the suspension components to allow the use of snow chains when needed. On the CX-5, there is no way to use chains unless you switch to smaller width tires as the chains will not clear the struts. Or you need a set of snow tires or optimally, a separate set of wheels and snow tires to install when the winter season comes. Not a cheap solution. I live on a very steep street and under snow and/or icy conditions I cannot get enough traction to get up the hill with the standard all season tires and chains cannot be installed. Mazda even provided a written warning about chains when they delivered the car. This is a somewhat serious flaw.
I would however like to see AWD as an option, with the system being primarily RWD with power applied to the front wheels when slippage of the rears is detected. Their current AWD works just the opposite and does exhibit some torque steer.
And another thing: I sure hope Mazda's engineering have redesigned the suspension components to allow the use of snow chains when needed. On the CX-5, there is no way to use chains unless you switch to smaller width tires as the chains will not clear the struts. Or you need a set of snow tires or optimally, a separate set of wheels and snow tires to install when the winter season comes. Not a cheap solution. I live on a very steep street and under snow and/or icy conditions I cannot get enough traction to get up the hill with the standard all season tires and chains cannot be installed. Mazda even provided a written warning about chains when they delivered the car. This is a somewhat serious flaw.
With a decent size electric motor they could use the electric motor to carry the vast majority of the drive load / (braking load durind engine braking) by using computer control of both the engine and the electric motor / generator and essentially have very little to no load on the clutch or clutches doing any shifts and then synchronize the speed of the petrol motor to the transmission side of the clutch that was to next be engaged before engaging the clutch. This would essentially eliminate any load on the clutch during engagement or during disengagement. This would drastically increase the life expectancy of any clutch in such a system. This would also allow them to use dry clutches, that are more efficient then wet clutches that lose efficiency due to oil drag interactions between the clutch and the surrounding housing. All-in-all if properly thought out and executed a system that takes advantage of having an electric motor to carry the load before the clutch is used could be a smooth and long-lived very efficient drivetrain. Throw in regenerative braking and plug-in Electric efficiency low cost of providing power to the vehicle especially for short trips, and this could be a very nice vehicle to own after all the bugs are worked out.
And electric motors can be designed to handle more than their continuous rated power for brief periods of time with no damage to them.
This means that even though the electric motor may have a continuous output rating of less than the amount the petroleum powered motor is rated for that the electric motor could be designed to handle 100% of the power demand during clutch usage.
And electric motors can be designed to handle more than their continuous rated power for brief periods of time with no damage to them.
This means that even though the electric motor may have a continuous output rating of less than the amount the petroleum powered motor is rated for that the electric motor could be designed to handle 100% of the power demand during clutch usage.
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Btw, the cx60 is going to be sold in the US as a slightly wider cx70. And the cx80 is going to be sold in the US as a slightly wider xc90. The cx90 probably will be the first to be released in the US.
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If you watch the X5 video I posted, they show how the electric system works. It is flawless and likely functions similarly to what you describe. I've driven one, you have no perception of which is operating unless you are listening for the engine (which is difficult to hear) and the transition between gas/electric is imperceptible.
I can see it not having a torque converter. The electric would be used to initially get the vehicle moving from zero to a speed where the engine could be matched to the rotational speed of of the secondary side of the clutch when the transmission was in first gear before that clutch was engaged every single time the vehicle went from zero to a speed that was sufficient enough to do this. The battery would have a minimum discharge in electric mode that left a reserve for launching the vehicle. And the electric motor could be used as a generator even if breaking was not being used by having the petrol motor drive the electric motor as a generator to recharge the drive battery sufficiently enough so that it could repeatedly be used for launching every single time the vehicle accelerated from zero or any speed slow enough that the engine could not be tied directly the first gear. The fact that computers are now small and consume very small amounts of power and are powerful enough to do all this means that all this could easily be accomplished and be on board the vehicle and not occupy any sufficient space or consumed any sufficient power to be of any concern.
If you think about this it would be like The Next Step Beyond what Toyota accomplished with the drive system they use on the Prius.
If you think about this it would be like The Next Step Beyond what Toyota accomplished with the drive system they use on the Prius.
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Great discussion here.
Referring back to the press release that @stormgol linked to, it reads to me that the PHEV has a electric motor mounted between the engine and transmission plus the transmission has its own electric motor/generator.
From the brief:
“The new transmission shifts gears in the same manner as a torque converter transmission – via planetary gears and multi-plate clutches – but it does not have an hydraulic converter as an input clutch, rather, a multi-plate clutch as well as an integrated electric motor/generator.
By replacing the torque converter with a clutch, the torque of the engine and motor is transmitted directly, with fast and rhythmic shifting much like a manual transmission.
In addition, the clutch’s friction transmission and cooling functions have been evolved to achieve smooth starting and high efficiency.
The Mazda CX-60 e-Skyactiv PHEV’s hybrid powertrain allows for the independent power mixing of the petrol engine and electric motor, and the new transmission helps to implement this smoothly at all speeds.”
So this seems to fall in line with the discussion here.
Another tidbit, the fuel economy is rated at 1.5L/100km. Converted to US measuring that rounds to 156mpg. Impressive fuel economy for this size and weight of automobile.
Referring back to the press release that @stormgol linked to, it reads to me that the PHEV has a electric motor mounted between the engine and transmission plus the transmission has its own electric motor/generator.
From the brief:
“The new transmission shifts gears in the same manner as a torque converter transmission – via planetary gears and multi-plate clutches – but it does not have an hydraulic converter as an input clutch, rather, a multi-plate clutch as well as an integrated electric motor/generator.
By replacing the torque converter with a clutch, the torque of the engine and motor is transmitted directly, with fast and rhythmic shifting much like a manual transmission.
In addition, the clutch’s friction transmission and cooling functions have been evolved to achieve smooth starting and high efficiency.
The Mazda CX-60 e-Skyactiv PHEV’s hybrid powertrain allows for the independent power mixing of the petrol engine and electric motor, and the new transmission helps to implement this smoothly at all speeds.”
So this seems to fall in line with the discussion here.
Another tidbit, the fuel economy is rated at 1.5L/100km. Converted to US measuring that rounds to 156mpg. Impressive fuel economy for this size and weight of automobile.
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$100 Site Donor 2021
It sounds to me to be similar to the ZF design I posted with the electric motor being where the TC would have been previously.
I think so as well. Your comment and link made me go back and reread the press brief.
Something else I gleaned from the brief is that the SkyActiv X six cylinder gets the same fuel economy as the 2.5 four cylinder.
I can now imagine a CX-90 with that six in a PHEV setup using the same transmission. Throw in the Takumi or Homura trim and you have a real nice three row crossover.
