why do people still buy non-synthetic?
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Originally Posted By: Mystic
I don't know who you are NightRiderQ45 but at this website people come here to find out about motor oil, oil filters, various auto maintenance related subjects. People want to come here and just be able to enjoy themselves discussing and debating motor oil and those discussions and debates should be friendly and not hostile.
People get tired if they reply in a post and they then experience personal attacks and are called silly names because they happen to watch a certain cable news network. And people get tired of people who get banned here and keep coming back with new user names only to do the same things they did to get themselves banned in the first place.
How about if we discuss motor oil here and other auto related subjects and drop all of the personal attacks, silly name calling, and other nonsense?
Oh I totally agree. Maybe I don't know enough of the backstory involving him, but I totally agree. I'm assuming that we are all grown and it's quite silly to argue over OIL.
I don't know who you are NightRiderQ45 but at this website people come here to find out about motor oil, oil filters, various auto maintenance related subjects. People want to come here and just be able to enjoy themselves discussing and debating motor oil and those discussions and debates should be friendly and not hostile.
People get tired if they reply in a post and they then experience personal attacks and are called silly names because they happen to watch a certain cable news network. And people get tired of people who get banned here and keep coming back with new user names only to do the same things they did to get themselves banned in the first place.
How about if we discuss motor oil here and other auto related subjects and drop all of the personal attacks, silly name calling, and other nonsense?
Oh I totally agree. Maybe I don't know enough of the backstory involving him, but I totally agree. I'm assuming that we are all grown and it's quite silly to argue over OIL.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
How about if we discuss motor oil here and other auto related subjects and drop all of the personal attacks, silly name calling, and other nonsense?
So let's get this straight.
In a thread where many people have agreed that dino is as good as syn in 99% of applications, I question a statement, made without ANY reference to application, usage profile, oci, that claims certain syns are better than other syns.
And for my discussion of motor oils I get this:
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Better yet ill put you on ignore so I don't have to read your drivel,please do same.
Isn't that a personal attack? By your own standards of outrage aren't you now obliged to notify the moderators that I was personally attacked?
How about if we discuss motor oil here and other auto related subjects and drop all of the personal attacks, silly name calling, and other nonsense?
So let's get this straight.
In a thread where many people have agreed that dino is as good as syn in 99% of applications, I question a statement, made without ANY reference to application, usage profile, oci, that claims certain syns are better than other syns.
And for my discussion of motor oils I get this:
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Better yet ill put you on ignore so I don't have to read your drivel,please do same.
Isn't that a personal attack? By your own standards of outrage aren't you now obliged to notify the moderators that I was personally attacked?
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Originally Posted By: Clevy
Because they are buying a name. Mobil 1 is an average oil,no better or worse than what's on the shelf beside it.
In your opinion.
Quote:
The market has caught up and in many cases past them in the quality department.
In your opinion.
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Quaker State Ultimate Durability is at the very least on par with M1 and can be had for less money.
In your opinion.
Quote:
Pennzoil platinum is at least as good as if not better in every application I've seen it used in vs the M1 counterpart when comparing wear metals in the uoa.
How about in comparing tear-downs?
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Pennzoil ultra is beyond any M1 offering,EP or otherwise.
In your opinion.
Quote:
The only oil I feel keeps M1 relevant is their 0w-40. Its a world class oil than can be put up against anything out there but that's it.
Again, in your opinion.
Quote:
Its like castrol.
Not really.
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Belgian castrol seems pretty good but German castrol even though an old formula will still stand against today's offerings.
Without extensive tear-down testing, we really have no idea how good or bad any of these oils are quite frankly. And compared to what baseline?
Quote:
Only in America is M1 even considered a top shelf oil.
I'm pretty sure Doug (Australia) and Trav (Germany) would disagree with you there. Mobil makes a wide range of lubricants that are highly certified and used by OEM's all over the world, in particular in Germany and with the Euro marques.
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The rest of the world doesn't just believe the hype.
I think that's a bit long on hyperbole and short on fact.....
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If shell would hire a real marketing team Mobil would exit stage right. Ultra is a world class oil no one can even find. That in itself is failure.
Shell for the win.
Shell's line of "Ultra" lubricants are indeed excellent. I'm basing this on the large number of OEM certs and approvals that their lubricants carry, like PU 5w-40 with a similar list of certs/approvals to M1 0w-40.
Anybody can pander their opinion as facts, but we really don't have any data (tear downs would be a good start) to indicate just what sets oil A apart from oil B. Which makes everything presented here an opinion piece chalk full of agenda and personal bias. This isn't a dig at you, I know why you don't like XOM and that's your right. However saying you've looked at UOA's and extrapolated meaningful wear data regarding the ability to contrast individual lubricant performance from that is a huge stretch and one I doubt you'll find many are willing to swallow.
Because they are buying a name. Mobil 1 is an average oil,no better or worse than what's on the shelf beside it.
In your opinion.
Quote:
The market has caught up and in many cases past them in the quality department.
In your opinion.
Quote:
Quaker State Ultimate Durability is at the very least on par with M1 and can be had for less money.
In your opinion.
Quote:
Pennzoil platinum is at least as good as if not better in every application I've seen it used in vs the M1 counterpart when comparing wear metals in the uoa.
How about in comparing tear-downs?
Quote:
Pennzoil ultra is beyond any M1 offering,EP or otherwise.
In your opinion.
Quote:
The only oil I feel keeps M1 relevant is their 0w-40. Its a world class oil than can be put up against anything out there but that's it.
Again, in your opinion.
Quote:
Its like castrol.
Not really.
Quote:
Belgian castrol seems pretty good but German castrol even though an old formula will still stand against today's offerings.
Without extensive tear-down testing, we really have no idea how good or bad any of these oils are quite frankly. And compared to what baseline?
Quote:
Only in America is M1 even considered a top shelf oil.
I'm pretty sure Doug (Australia) and Trav (Germany) would disagree with you there. Mobil makes a wide range of lubricants that are highly certified and used by OEM's all over the world, in particular in Germany and with the Euro marques.
Quote:
The rest of the world doesn't just believe the hype.
I think that's a bit long on hyperbole and short on fact.....
Quote:
If shell would hire a real marketing team Mobil would exit stage right. Ultra is a world class oil no one can even find. That in itself is failure.
Shell for the win.
Shell's line of "Ultra" lubricants are indeed excellent. I'm basing this on the large number of OEM certs and approvals that their lubricants carry, like PU 5w-40 with a similar list of certs/approvals to M1 0w-40.
Anybody can pander their opinion as facts, but we really don't have any data (tear downs would be a good start) to indicate just what sets oil A apart from oil B. Which makes everything presented here an opinion piece chalk full of agenda and personal bias. This isn't a dig at you, I know why you don't like XOM and that's your right. However saying you've looked at UOA's and extrapolated meaningful wear data regarding the ability to contrast individual lubricant performance from that is a huge stretch and one I doubt you'll find many are willing to swallow.
So, since I was accused of "drivel", am I allowed to use that word right back at my accuser?
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Because they are buying a name. Mobil 1 is an average oil,no better or worse than what's on the shelf beside it. The market has caught up and in many cases past them in the quality department.
Proof.
Because they are buying a name. Mobil 1 is an average oil,no better or worse than what's on the shelf beside it. The market has caught up and in many cases past them in the quality department.
Proof.
If people would just focus on OP's question and not get side-tracked to talking about Syns.....
My, but this thread has turned nasty.
The moral of the story is that we should all use the brand and label we find satisfactory and not try to convert others.
I can say that I've found PP to be very good in a few applications, Synpower less so in our '09 Forester and Nextgen Maxlife to be great in my old four cylinder BMW.
I've reached these conclusions using UOAs, all of which are posted here.
Maybe the bottom line is that there are no really bad API SM/SN oils and there is no clear distinction between synthetic and conventional oil.
Run any brand and type of oil anyone has mentioned in this thread and the engine will still be running pretty well when the car is driven or towed to the yard it will inevitably end up in.
The moral of the story is that we should all use the brand and label we find satisfactory and not try to convert others.
I can say that I've found PP to be very good in a few applications, Synpower less so in our '09 Forester and Nextgen Maxlife to be great in my old four cylinder BMW.
I've reached these conclusions using UOAs, all of which are posted here.
Maybe the bottom line is that there are no really bad API SM/SN oils and there is no clear distinction between synthetic and conventional oil.
Run any brand and type of oil anyone has mentioned in this thread and the engine will still be running pretty well when the car is driven or towed to the yard it will inevitably end up in.
The Elves warned me about coming back. They told me the Board now has "attitude" issues. Seems to be the case. Maybe I should have listened to them. I collect oil as a hobby. I am convinced that among the major brands oil is oil. Certainly not worth arguing over. Next we'll be debating Chivveys vs Fards. Too bad there isn't a NASCAR site that would draw some of you away. And for those of you discerning enough to determine I am dissing NASCAR you would not be exactly right...its the attitude I am after (too many Tony Stewarts here)...Sorry KitaCam I just couldn't stay on task.
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You're right.
Buying, having and using different oils is part of the fun of car maintenance.
There's no point in arguing about which one you should use and which one you should never use.
You seem inclined to have fun with all of this.
Maybe more members need to adopt that attitude.
Those who approach the topic with an opinion already set in concrete miss the opportunity to try oils that may work very well in their applications that they'd never considered.
I don't recall how many different brands, types and grades of oil I've tried over the years and there will never be an end to those I haven't tried.
They all worked, though, in that I've never lost an engine to the oil I used in it.
Some just seemed to work better than others.
Buying, having and using different oils is part of the fun of car maintenance.
There's no point in arguing about which one you should use and which one you should never use.
You seem inclined to have fun with all of this.
Maybe more members need to adopt that attitude.
Those who approach the topic with an opinion already set in concrete miss the opportunity to try oils that may work very well in their applications that they'd never considered.
I don't recall how many different brands, types and grades of oil I've tried over the years and there will never be an end to those I haven't tried.
They all worked, though, in that I've never lost an engine to the oil I used in it.
Some just seemed to work better than others.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You're right.
Buying, having and using different oils is part of the fun of car maintenance.
There's no point in arguing about which one you should use and which one you should never use.
You seem inclined to have fun with all of this.
Maybe more members need to adopt that attitude.
Those who approach the topic with an opinion already set in concrete miss the opportunity to try oils that may work very well in their applications that they'd never considered.
I don't recall how many different brands, types and grades of oil I've tried over the years and there will never be an end to those I haven't tried.
They all worked, though, in that I've never lost an engine to the oil I used in it.
Some just seemed to work better than others.
You're right.
Buying, having and using different oils is part of the fun of car maintenance.
There's no point in arguing about which one you should use and which one you should never use.
You seem inclined to have fun with all of this.
Maybe more members need to adopt that attitude.
Those who approach the topic with an opinion already set in concrete miss the opportunity to try oils that may work very well in their applications that they'd never considered.
I don't recall how many different brands, types and grades of oil I've tried over the years and there will never be an end to those I haven't tried.
They all worked, though, in that I've never lost an engine to the oil I used in it.
Some just seemed to work better than others.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You're right.
Buying, having and using different oils is part of the fun of car maintenance.
There's no point in arguing about which one you should use and which one you should never use.
You seem inclined to have fun with all of this.
Maybe more members need to adopt that attitude.
Those who approach the topic with an opinion already set in concrete miss the opportunity to try oils that may work very well in their applications that they'd never considered.
I don't recall how many different brands, types and grades of oil I've tried over the years and there will never be an end to those I haven't tried.
They all worked, though, in that I've never lost an engine to the oil I used in it.
Some just seemed to work better than others.
There are a lot of people around the world who simply buy what they want or what they can get for the best price. Some are simply brand loyal and have used yellow bottle Pennzoil (or white bottle Valvoline) since seeing dad put in his car.
People here are mostly hobbyists and probably more interested in this stuff simply for the sake of being interested in motor oil. We've got fanatics similar to baseball stat geeks arguing over little details as to why one player is better than another. For others, motor oil is a tool. Some people are simply used to using certain tools and don't want to change the routine. The thing is that with regular maintenance, there probably isn't likely going to be any major oil-related issues for hundreds of thousands of miles in most modern cars. There might be small differences in fuel economy or costs, but there are people who believe they have better things to worry about than the differences between motor oil.
As for "synthetic" vs "conventional" - the lines are so blurred these days that I don't necessarily care. Maybe in the 90s you could get Mobil 1 or Castrol Syntec and know with certainty that it was different than yellow bottle Pennzoil. These days it's probably more about the additive packs than what the seller calls the base oil. That being said, I've never used anything but Mobil oils in my WRX from the first oil change at 3000 miles exactly on the odo. For my wife's car I don't care so much. I've bought whatever I felt like, although the most recent was a case of Mobil Clean 5000 5W-20. I got it for something like $30 on special.
You're right.
Buying, having and using different oils is part of the fun of car maintenance.
There's no point in arguing about which one you should use and which one you should never use.
You seem inclined to have fun with all of this.
Maybe more members need to adopt that attitude.
Those who approach the topic with an opinion already set in concrete miss the opportunity to try oils that may work very well in their applications that they'd never considered.
I don't recall how many different brands, types and grades of oil I've tried over the years and there will never be an end to those I haven't tried.
They all worked, though, in that I've never lost an engine to the oil I used in it.
Some just seemed to work better than others.
There are a lot of people around the world who simply buy what they want or what they can get for the best price. Some are simply brand loyal and have used yellow bottle Pennzoil (or white bottle Valvoline) since seeing dad put in his car.
People here are mostly hobbyists and probably more interested in this stuff simply for the sake of being interested in motor oil. We've got fanatics similar to baseball stat geeks arguing over little details as to why one player is better than another. For others, motor oil is a tool. Some people are simply used to using certain tools and don't want to change the routine. The thing is that with regular maintenance, there probably isn't likely going to be any major oil-related issues for hundreds of thousands of miles in most modern cars. There might be small differences in fuel economy or costs, but there are people who believe they have better things to worry about than the differences between motor oil.
As for "synthetic" vs "conventional" - the lines are so blurred these days that I don't necessarily care. Maybe in the 90s you could get Mobil 1 or Castrol Syntec and know with certainty that it was different than yellow bottle Pennzoil. These days it's probably more about the additive packs than what the seller calls the base oil. That being said, I've never used anything but Mobil oils in my WRX from the first oil change at 3000 miles exactly on the odo. For my wife's car I don't care so much. I've bought whatever I felt like, although the most recent was a case of Mobil Clean 5000 5W-20. I got it for something like $30 on special.
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You're right.
Buying, having and using different oils is part of the fun of car maintenance.
There's no point in arguing about which one you should use and which one you should never use.
You seem inclined to have fun with all of this.
Maybe more members need to adopt that attitude.
Those who approach the topic with an opinion already set in concrete miss the opportunity to try oils that may work very well in their applications that they'd never considered.
I don't recall how many different brands, types and grades of oil I've tried over the years and there will never be an end to those I haven't tried.
They all worked, though, in that I've never lost an engine to the oil I used in it.
Some just seemed to work better than others.
There are a lot of people around the world who simply buy what they want or what they can get for the best price. Some are simply brand loyal and have used yellow bottle Pennzoil (or white bottle Valvoline) since seeing dad put in his car.
People here are mostly hobbyists and probably more interested in this stuff simply for the sake of being interested in motor oil. We've got fanatics similar to baseball stat geeks arguing over little details as to why one player is better than another. For others, motor oil is a tool. Some people are simply used to using certain tools and don't want to change the routine. The thing is that with regular maintenance, there probably isn't likely going to be any major oil-related issues for hundreds of thousands of miles in most modern cars. There might be small differences in fuel economy or costs, but there are people who believe they have better things to worry about than the differences between motor oil.
As for "synthetic" vs "conventional" - the lines are so blurred these days that I don't necessarily care. Maybe in the 90s you could get Mobil 1 or Castrol Syntec and know with certainty that it was different than yellow bottle Pennzoil. These days it's probably more about the additive packs than what the seller calls the base oil. That being said, I've never used anything but Mobil oils in my WRX from the first oil change at 3000 miles exactly on the odo. For my wife's car I don't care so much. I've bought whatever I felt like, although the most recent was a case of Mobil Clean 5000 5W-20. I got it for something like $30 on special.
Well said. I think you covered key characteristics of our board members. I endorse each perspective getting its say...without getting uncivil. As much as I love collecting (and using) motor oil, save the fighting for important things...like stopping a monster from using chem on his own people.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You're right.
Buying, having and using different oils is part of the fun of car maintenance.
There's no point in arguing about which one you should use and which one you should never use.
You seem inclined to have fun with all of this.
Maybe more members need to adopt that attitude.
Those who approach the topic with an opinion already set in concrete miss the opportunity to try oils that may work very well in their applications that they'd never considered.
I don't recall how many different brands, types and grades of oil I've tried over the years and there will never be an end to those I haven't tried.
They all worked, though, in that I've never lost an engine to the oil I used in it.
Some just seemed to work better than others.
There are a lot of people around the world who simply buy what they want or what they can get for the best price. Some are simply brand loyal and have used yellow bottle Pennzoil (or white bottle Valvoline) since seeing dad put in his car.
People here are mostly hobbyists and probably more interested in this stuff simply for the sake of being interested in motor oil. We've got fanatics similar to baseball stat geeks arguing over little details as to why one player is better than another. For others, motor oil is a tool. Some people are simply used to using certain tools and don't want to change the routine. The thing is that with regular maintenance, there probably isn't likely going to be any major oil-related issues for hundreds of thousands of miles in most modern cars. There might be small differences in fuel economy or costs, but there are people who believe they have better things to worry about than the differences between motor oil.
As for "synthetic" vs "conventional" - the lines are so blurred these days that I don't necessarily care. Maybe in the 90s you could get Mobil 1 or Castrol Syntec and know with certainty that it was different than yellow bottle Pennzoil. These days it's probably more about the additive packs than what the seller calls the base oil. That being said, I've never used anything but Mobil oils in my WRX from the first oil change at 3000 miles exactly on the odo. For my wife's car I don't care so much. I've bought whatever I felt like, although the most recent was a case of Mobil Clean 5000 5W-20. I got it for something like $30 on special.
Well said. I think you covered key characteristics of our board members. I endorse each perspective getting its say...without getting uncivil. As much as I love collecting (and using) motor oil, save the fighting for important things...like stopping a monster from using chem on his own people.
Originally Posted By: pscholte
I collect oil as a hobby. I am convinced that among the major brands oil is oil. Certainly not worth arguing over.
I don't know if I collect or I stash or I hoard. It's something like that. I have certain brand loyalties, but if I worried too much about that stuff, I'd have a brand war break out in my garage.
I collect oil as a hobby. I am convinced that among the major brands oil is oil. Certainly not worth arguing over.
I don't know if I collect or I stash or I hoard. It's something like that. I have certain brand loyalties, but if I worried too much about that stuff, I'd have a brand war break out in my garage.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: pscholte
I collect oil as a hobby. I am convinced that among the major brands oil is oil. Certainly not worth arguing over.
I don't know if I collect or I stash or I hoard. It's something like that. I have certain brand loyalties, but if I worried too much about that stuff, I'd have a brand war break out in my garage.
Garak,
I really have no brand loyalties although I do favor Castrol which seems to have its haters. I, like you, have all the potential for a free-for-all between Elf, Castrol, Pentosin, Total, Redline, Agip, Kendall GT-1, QSUD and Pennzoil Ultra. If I had any Royal Purple I guess I could say I could have a "Battle Royal."
Originally Posted By: pscholte
I collect oil as a hobby. I am convinced that among the major brands oil is oil. Certainly not worth arguing over.
I don't know if I collect or I stash or I hoard. It's something like that. I have certain brand loyalties, but if I worried too much about that stuff, I'd have a brand war break out in my garage.
Garak,
I really have no brand loyalties although I do favor Castrol which seems to have its haters. I, like you, have all the potential for a free-for-all between Elf, Castrol, Pentosin, Total, Redline, Agip, Kendall GT-1, QSUD and Pennzoil Ultra. If I had any Royal Purple I guess I could say I could have a "Battle Royal."
API SN conventional motor oils are good for 5000 miles under any duty cycle and around 7500 miles under normal cycle (e.g. highway cruise). This works out pretty nicely for a lot of people hp don't drive a lot. In our household we do have a couple of cars that go nearly 15,000 miles a year, and the oil changes with conventional are a bit daunting IMO, so they would be perfect candidates for synthetic, but I have too much of conventional in the stash.
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Producing conventional oil requires less energy, and the low-cost synthetics may have cheaped out on additives that the conventionals didn't have to do because they already met their price point. Unless it's specifically required for an application, synthetics aren't really buying you anything but maybe a longer OCI, which you won't use anyway while you're under warranty if you're smart. Once out of warranty, extended OCIs are the only real benefit, but a lot of people here seem to dump expensive synthetics far before they need to be changed anyway, negating the cost savings, increasing energy consumption, and adding to the pollution problems. There is no meaningul lubrication advantage to synthetics. So I'm wondering the opposite: Why do people buy synthetics if they're not required?
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You're right.
Buying, having and using different oils is part of the fun of car maintenance.
There's no point in arguing about which one you should use and which one you should never use.
You seem inclined to have fun with all of this.
Maybe more members need to adopt that attitude.
Those who approach the topic with an opinion already set in concrete miss the opportunity to try oils that may work very well in their applications that they'd never considered.
I don't recall how many different brands, types and grades of oil I've tried over the years and there will never be an end to those I haven't tried.
They all worked, though, in that I've never lost an engine to the oil I used in it.
Some just seemed to work better than others.
^ This....
You're right.
Buying, having and using different oils is part of the fun of car maintenance.
There's no point in arguing about which one you should use and which one you should never use.
You seem inclined to have fun with all of this.
Maybe more members need to adopt that attitude.
Those who approach the topic with an opinion already set in concrete miss the opportunity to try oils that may work very well in their applications that they'd never considered.
I don't recall how many different brands, types and grades of oil I've tried over the years and there will never be an end to those I haven't tried.
They all worked, though, in that I've never lost an engine to the oil I used in it.
Some just seemed to work better than others.
^ This....
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