What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
What's your point? That Honda has a rule against spec'ing heavier oils in naturally aspirated V6's

Well i don't know about the V6 but the S2000 wasn't 5w20.
Why not?
Honda has made the statement that it wants to appear a "green" company, who really knows how much of a role that plays into their decisions.


I dunno, but that car hasn't been in production for years. And here it seems that the OLM is going far too long. And 5W-20 has been used in many V6's and V8's with no problems and some of those cars are clocking 200K or 300K on 5W-20...

Quote:
Believe what you want
I base my opinions on verifiable visual observations from tearing engines down professionally for 38 yrs and actually seeing, measuring, etc whats going on inside them.
Believe it or not you own eyes can sometimes provide just as much info as some spec sheet.


Every problem is specific. The OP may simply have gotten the classic lemon...

 

[ottotheclown]

Just in passing suppose a guy in this situation had used PYB for 3k all along. You have to assume still the sludge would have formed because of the engine design. Because the performance is ok other than the ticking, how about a independent fixing the problem? ONLY warranty work with a stealer is my MOTTO!! Have a guy in mind but coming to Long Island NY is out of the question.Just kidding.Things are in the works something has to happen beats just sitting around. IMHO I love the thought that even syn. fail at times takes something like this to see that in print.

 

[Jim Allen]

The root of this is that an engine design with a history of sludge and problems was run too far on conventional oil based on faulty advice (human and OLM). Coulda, woulda, shoulda doesn't enter into it. Maybe a better oil could have gone the distance, but with an engine design that has a problematic history, who knows for sure. Why argue over WAGs? We hope Honda will agree to at least help with the repairs, since it appears that they (and there reps), thoroughly confused the issue for the owner. What has happened here is a teachable moment, for all of us readers and for the OP. Too bad there wasn't an oil sample taken. Woulda been interesting to see.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Anyhow, the temperature gauge is exactly where it has always been for the life of the vehicle (nice of Honda not to calibrate that gauge). It climbs a third of the way up the scale and stays right there, even on a 90 degree afternoon.


This is normal operation for the temperature gauge, and it's how the temperature gauge in nearly every modern vehicle works. The needle doesn't correspond directly with coolant temperature. It's programmed to rise to the "normal" level and stay there as long as the coolant temperature stays within a "normal" level. In this case, likely somewhere between 180*F and 220*F. Any coolant temperature within that range is "normal", and variability is normal for TFWD powertrains with electric fans. If the temperature gauge tracked exactly with coolant temperature, you'd see large swings in gauge movement, even after the engine is warmed up, and folks would bring the vehicles into the dealer reporting a problem with coolant temperature, even though everything is operating as designed.

Secondly, cylinder head temperature doesn't necessarily track with coolant temperature either, especially with VCM operation like this. One cylinder head could get significantly hotter than the other, or hotter than the rest of the engine, without the coolant temperature rising significantly. It's mainly the job of the oil to cool the cylinder head, not the coolant. So it is certainly possible (and plausible) that your cylinder head is heating up to the point of cooking old conventional oil without the rest of the system (or you) knowing it.

Thirdly, I'd still love to see a photograph through the oil fill hole. Were you able to get a card reader to get your photograph off your camera? I'm not calling you a dishonest person, but all this thread is based on so far is an internet post.

 

[TFB1]

It's been mentioned the front cylinders on these engines run hotter than a conventional, I'd say maybe by a small amount... The reason the sludge doesn't build as fast in the rear cylinders is they are no doubt running far cooler when shut down... No way to know, but if the engine used all cylinders, you'd see comparable amount of sludge on both engine banks... Especially with 10K OCI...

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
The root of this is that an engine design with a history of sludge and problems was run too far on conventional oil based on faulty advice (human and OLM). Coulda, woulda, shoulda doesn't enter into it. Maybe a better oil could have gone the distance, but with an engine design that has a problematic history, who knows for sure.


Exactly...

 

[uart]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Thirdly, I'd still love to see a photograph through the oil fill hole. Were you able to get a card reader to get your photograph off your camera? I'm not calling you a dishonest person, but all this thread is based on so far is an internet post.


He posted them a few pages back Hokie. Looked very similar to the one Trav fixed recently. Definitely looks like some major vanish build up.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9DO_RJXHhWNTXdzUmNDMTk4UkU/edit?pli=1

 

[cptbarkey]

if you ran 300 miles with the engine in this supposed state, either a) nothing is really wrong or b) its past time to carmax this thing before it nukes and you are left holding the bag.

 

[Bill in Utah]

I'll bet its more choice A.

Valves needed adjustment and the "techs" did not want to deal with it (or did not know how) so they "fixed" it which made it tick loudly due to valves being loose. See that it has varnish so something to blame and make a little coin "fixing" that "issue".

As the old saying goes... Second opinions are worth their weight.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: uart
He posted them a few pages back Hokie. Looked very similar to the one Trav fixed recently. Definitely looks like some major vanish build up.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9DO_RJXHhWNTXdzUmNDMTk4UkU/edit?pli=1


Thanks for the clarification. The computer I'm using now doesn't parse the docs.google.com address correctly (so I missed it among the other photos that Trav posted). I'll check it out when I get to a different computer.

 

[uart]

Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
if you ran 300 miles with the engine in this supposed state, either a) nothing is really wrong or b) its past time to carmax this thing before it nukes and you are left holding the bag.

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
I'll bet its more choice A.


Guys, please read Travs post re same engine here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2160501

This is exactly what it the issue is!

 

[accent2012]

Best of luck getting this resolved. Just keep pushing the fact that you were following orders from the dealer service manager and operators manual if you are trying to get warranty work done.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
I have a 2009 Honda Pilot I bought new and have maintained as per dealer recommendations, which is to use the on-board maintenance minder computer. At 80K miles the engine developed a tick in the valve train, which has since become louder. At almost 90K miles the dealer went to do a valve adjustment but instead told me that the engine has heavy sludge which caused premature wear of the camshafts, probably cylinder heads, and possibly lower end. They now recommend significant engine work, engine replacement, or vehicle replacement. I am troubled by the fact that my dealer insisted the Pilot would be fine running conventional oil as long as the 9K to 10K mile service intervals the maintenance minder ran before indicating an oil change was due. I spoke with Mobil who told me that the conventional Mobil Super oil the dealer was running had a 5000 mile rating and although this oil would continue to lubricate beyond its rating, the additives and detergents would begin to break down after that point. My conclusion is that the maintenance minder on this vehicle was operating in error by letting conventional oil run as long as it did, and the breakdown of the overused oil caused the accumulation of sludge over the lifetime of the engine. This seems obvious to me as I have always changed my oil at 5000 miles, yet the dealer service department said they, "Just don't know" what happened. My dealer's parts department told me that Honda started using synthetic-hybrid oils for their 2011 models. Can someone please tell me if my conclusion is correct, or if there is another solid reason for what might have happened here? Many Thanks!

You shouldn't have been using dino (conventional) oil in an expensive car like this. Synthetics are a lot better in all respects, especially for long oil-change intervals (OCIs). You will have cleaner engine, more fuel economy, and more engine durability. Benefits in fuel economy alone will many times offset the minor added cost of synthetic.

I hope this is covered under warranty and you don't pay for it.

 

[Vikas]

Is it being claimed that the cylinder heads are getting hotter than turbos? I mean Mobile 1 even survives in a turbo'd engine for at least 7.5K. If we have a documented evidence of Mobile 1 7.5K OCI'd Honda having oil break down, what is the explanation?

 

[WMSmotorhead]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You shouldn't have been using dino (conventional) oil in an expensive car like this. Synthetics are a lot better in all respects, especially for long oil-change intervals (OCIs). You will have cleaner engine, more fuel economy, and more engine durability. Benefits in fuel economy alone will many times offset the minor added cost of synthetic.

I hope this is covered under warranty and you don't pay for it.


Other than the longer OCI, I have not seen better fuel econ, or cleaning ability.... I'm totally fine with conventional at an appropriate OCI. I've run all sorts of oils over the years, and I come back to just ONE difference beween syn and conventional, and that's the LONGEVITY of use.

Cars that were given NOTHING BUT CONVENTIONAL are totally clean inside the motor, and exceed Mfg. stated fuel economy. Nothing magic is going on here, I'm just using Super 93 fuel, and 5w-20 conventional.... no magic sauces.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: uart
Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
if you ran 300 miles with the engine in this supposed state, either a) nothing is really wrong or b) its past time to carmax this thing before it nukes and you are left holding the bag.

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
I'll bet its more choice A.


Guys, please read Travs post re same engine here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2160501

This is exactly what it the issue is!


Trav, you and I do not KNOW exactly that what this is unless you or him (because I sure have not) seen it OURSELVES.

Could it be this? Sure and it could be quite a few other things incl close to nothing.

Until someone with knowledge sees it IN PERSON and reports on it then we can have some factual info.

Bill

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
I have a 2009 Honda Pilot I bought new and have maintained as per dealer recommendations, which is to use the on-board maintenance minder computer. At 80K miles the engine developed a tick in the valve train, which has since become louder. At almost 90K miles the dealer went to do a valve adjustment but instead told me that the engine has heavy sludge which caused premature wear of the camshafts, probably cylinder heads, and possibly lower end. They now recommend significant engine work, engine replacement, or vehicle replacement. I am troubled by the fact that my dealer insisted the Pilot would be fine running conventional oil as long as the 9K to 10K mile service intervals the maintenance minder ran before indicating an oil change was due. I spoke with Mobil who told me that the conventional Mobil Super oil the dealer was running had a 5000 mile rating and although this oil would continue to lubricate beyond its rating, the additives and detergents would begin to break down after that point. My conclusion is that the maintenance minder on this vehicle was operating in error by letting conventional oil run as long as it did, and the breakdown of the overused oil caused the accumulation of sludge over the lifetime of the engine. This seems obvious to me as I have always changed my oil at 5000 miles, yet the dealer service department said they, "Just don't know" what happened. My dealer's parts department told me that Honda started using synthetic-hybrid oils for their 2011 models. Can someone please tell me if my conclusion is correct, or if there is another solid reason for what might have happened here? Many Thanks!

You shouldn't have been using dino (conventional) oil in an expensive car like this. Synthetics are a lot better in all respects, especially for long oil-change intervals (OCIs). You will have cleaner engine, more fuel economy, and more engine durability. Benefits in fuel economy alone will many times offset the minor added cost of synthetic.

I hope this is covered under warranty and you don't pay for it.


If you will go back and read my response to your Toyota 0W20 thread you will see why "synthetics" are not a "miracle" lubricant. If you prefer higher VI oils with the chance of maybe increasing FE but to increase lubricity of "synthetic" oils are depended on friction modifiers and the formulation of the "boundary layer". Just because a oil of higher VI's does not take away the need for balance in the lubricant. There are no "miracles" when we are talking about 5-7 dollar a quart motor oil. I do not like the idea of using a "synthetic" or higher grade of oil to overcome a design or mechanical flaw.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Is it being claimed that the cylinder heads are getting hotter than turbos?

Vikas look a turbo only heats the oil as it passes through the bearings.
The overall temp of the oil is raised sure enough but only when the turbo is really working hard.
What were are taking about is a bank of 3 cyl doing 100% of the work pulling a 4000+lb van or suv, truck what have you around.
The head temp on that bank gets very hot and begins breaking down the oil. Once the oil is damaged (for lack of a better word) there is no bringing it back once the engine cools down.

I have given what i believe to be a sound explanation and honest suggestions if someone disagrees thats no problem.
I don't want anything more to do with this thread honestly i am truly sorry i even posted in it.
This will be the last time i offer anything to anyone other than passing comments on tools and such because to tell you the truth i am just friggin sick of it.

 

[Trav]

I never said it was exactly the same.
I told the OP to get a second opinion before he lets them change the cams.
I'm done.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Trav you input is very valuable but I hope my comments are not the reason why you are sorry you have posted here.

My point is what you say has happened and most likely did BUT you nor I know as a FACT this is the issue.

Plus add other comments from others which are not even truthful and that is where I'm coming from.

Take care, bill

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I never said it was exactly the same.
I told the OP to get a second opinion before he lets them change the cams.
I'm done.


No others are.

Like you said get another opinion before jumping off the cliff.

Bill