What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

[demarpaint]

I just spoke with Trav and he'll be returning to this thread, he had an emergency to deal with.

As far as the vehicle running worse when it came back from the dealer. There is a real good chance they messed up the valve adjustment. Don't count this engine out just yet.

 

[RF Overlord]

Uh, not to sound like a noob, but if he replaces those little screens, then does a synth-oil clean-up, is it not likely those screens will become clogged again?

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Uh, not to sound like a noob, but if he replaces those little screens, then does a synth-oil clean-up, is it not likely those screens will become clogged again?

Wouldn't say likely, but possible. Synthetic is a slow cleanup vs. a gunk engine flush, etc. The flushes would be closer to likely, why most people dont use them.

 

[Astro14]

I would like to point out that because of what I've heard on BITOG about this engine, and what I've learned about oil, that my kid brother has adopted an every 5K OCI on his 2009 Oddysey, which now has over 85K on it, despite the OLM...I think he runs a syn...but I am not sure...point is: he's avoided trouble because of BITOG.

That's a good thing.

 

[Vikas]

The 3.5 V6 is the bread and butter of the Honda and Acura. If this problem were as widespread as the infernal transmission problem, we would have seen lot more occurrences than the handful that have been brought out.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Real quick input.

My Dad had a 2005 Honda powered Vue (so it had the normal engine with out the timing of the cams) and it saw 7-10k OCI following the OLM (using any API SL+ conventional oil) and was running fine, spotless through the fill hole (I've posted many photos of it on this board) and I'd have to say it would be still running if it was not totaled last year when a Dodge truck rear ended them into another Dodge truck (about 45 mph with no application of brakes)

It had well beyond 90k miles. It is a fact that the more complex motor is harder on the oil but until we ran the SAME motors through the SAME conditions we can not state for a FACT that this issue (if it is one) would have surfaced the same, worst or not at all if this motor saw only x oil.

My point is if this board and their members want to keep a reputation of being the SOURCE of accurate info lets STOP with the blanket mindset that x is the only way for x miles.

Because its not true.

Bill

 

[Boss302fan]

Go to the Acura forums and you will see a lot of unhappy owners that have issues with the v6 engines and transmissions. Maybe Honda fixed some issues after 06 but prior to that, they had some major defects in those components. I know personally and I am also a good friend with an Acura mechanic...

 

[demarpaint]

Good point Bill. OTOH Honda could have just taken the OLM calibrations from the "normal engine" as you called it and programmed it into this engine w/o the proper testing. Under certain circumstances its fine, and in others like this one its a problem. Maybe another case of the consumer doing the final testing. I still think this board will maintain a good reputation, even if its for alerting people to potential problems such as this. Case in point Astro 14's comments. A shorter OCI will never harm an engine, a longer one can. JMO

 

[WMSmotorhead]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH


And I'll never run conventional oil again after what I learned here.


Conventional isn't always a bad thing. You just need to have an OCI that works for conventional. The general accepted standard for Conventional oils is 3-5K miles.

I would say... Don't run conventional past 5K...

I've seen vehicles make 300K miles or more on conventional oils.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
The 3.5 V6 is the bread and butter of the Honda and Acura. If this problem were as widespread as the infernal transmission problem, we would have seen lot more occurrences than the handful that have been brought out.


Two problems with this post.
First this engine only came online in the US in 05 and then only in the top of the line Touring and one other.
The numbers produced were much lower by far.

Second. These vehicles are only now reaching 7 yrs old and the 80-100k mark.
The ones i have done were high mileage for their age and failures in this system due to varnish and buildup were 80, 88, 92, 95, and almost 100K.
As more begin reaching this sort of mileage look for more issues.

Go to Honda and they outright deny the issue but ask the techs and parts people and their first reaction is "oh another one".
All parts (by coincidence i'm sure) are in stock.
Honda tries to claim customer neglect in every case i have dealt with.

Quote:
The technology was originally introduced to the US on the 2005 Honda Odyssey minivan, and can now be found on the Honda Accord Hybrid, the 2006 Honda Pilot, and the 2008 Honda Accord


Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
My point is if this board and their members want to keep a reputation of being the SOURCE of accurate info lets STOP with the blanket mindset that x is the only way for x miles.

Because its not true

Your fathers 3.5 is only a relative of this engine and is the same in that it has 6 pistons and is 3.5 ltr.
Different heads, different oiling system, completely different valve train, etc.
Quote:
until we ran the SAME motors through the SAME conditions we can not state for a FACT that this issue (if it is one) would have surfaced the same

The normal 3.5 is running on 6 cyl all the time, the R series iVTEC uses 3 cyl only a lot of the time.
It makes sense that the bank doing the bulk of the work is going to get hotter given the fact its doing all the work and has combustion in those 3 cyl.
Heat is a major contributing factor to oil breakdown is it not?

I know its tempting to compare this engine to the "normal" 3.5
because its made by Honda and its same family but its really more different than it is the same to be compared apples to apples.

If someone wants to contact me about any more info, documentation, pictures, etc do it by PM.
Trav out.

 

[steve20]

Originally Posted By: Mau
As some have mentioned I would run Pennzoil Ultra 5w30 or Rotella T6 5w30 for 5k oci and see if it starts to clean it up.

I just came back from changing my TL which also has the J35 however non VCM. The OLM took it to 8000KM (~5000miles) however the car was stored during winter.

I double checked the owners manual and it does state to follow the OLM and not exceed 1 year interval.


Good to see someone else running 30 weight in their Honda/Acura

Our RDX's OLM is also spot on however it's calibrated for Synthetic and usually only takes us to ~4000miles. RDX is spotless through the fill hole, the TL is a bit darker then I'd like however I got the car used like this and have been running PP in it since.

 

[buster]

It's hard to know what the problem is without any data. If this engine does run significantly hotter, then using a good synthetic will help prevent this type of problem.

The fact is, good synthetic oils do prevent deposits and will keep engines cleaner than regular, low tier synthetics or syn blends. Definitely cleaner than your average SN GF-5 oil.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: Trav


Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
My point is if this board and their members want to keep a reputation of being the SOURCE of accurate info lets STOP with the blanket mindset that x is the only way for x miles.

Because its not true

Your fathers 3.5 is only a relative of this engine and is the same in that it has 6 pistons and is 3.5 ltr.
Different heads, different oiling system, completely different valve train, etc.
Quote:
until we ran the SAME motors through the SAME conditions we can not state for a FACT that this issue (if it is one) would have surfaced the same


The normal 3.5 is running on 6 cyl all the time, the R series iVTEC uses 3 cyl only a lot of the time.
It makes sense that the bank doing the bulk of the work is going to get hotter given the fact its doing all the work and has combustion in those 3 cyl.
Heat is a major contributing factor to oil breakdown is it not?

I know its tempting to compare this engine to the "normal" 3.5
because its made by Honda and its same family but its really more different than it is the same to be compared apples to apples.

If someone wants to contact me about any more info, documentation, pictures, etc do it by PM.
Trav out.


True on the engine differences.

But statements like "this would not happen if oil x was used or oil type y is good to x miles" are NOT factual comments.

My point is many vehicles go a lot further than 3000-5000 on conventional oils and have no problems (either running or sludge/varnish) for hundreds of thousands of miles.

Making the statement that if EVERYTHING on this engine was the same EXCEPT the oil used there would be no issues is untrue.

Until it is done over and over it is just a guess. Like a lot of other statements here.

Take care, bill

 

[Pablo]

It's a documented fact that in extreme conditions and extended drains, true synthetic oils will keep your engine cleaner. With short runs like 10K in this known sludger engine, it not even a stretch to suggest this would not have happened with synthetic oil - the more remarkable fact is many of the best oils in these situations are not API (SM) certified.

 

[Garak]

Agreed, Pablo. After all, the European problems a number of years back were due to overly optimistic OCIs that relied on API conventional, with average sump sizes.

The old Audi took 4.5 L of SJ oil (I believe it was SJ anyhow) for 12,500 km intervals. Newer ones hold close to double that, with much more stringent specifications.

It's not the fault of the owner or the oil. The engine, intervals, expected driving style, and lubes simply have to match. We have plenty of good OLMs out there. One should not have to expect the owner to either disregard it or use a lube totally different than the one recommended to keep the engine clean and running well.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: buster
It's hard to know what the problem is without any data. If this engine does run significantly hotter, then using a good synthetic will help prevent this type of problem.

The fact is, good synthetic oils do prevent deposits and will keep engines cleaner than regular, low tier synthetics or syn blends. Definitely cleaner than your average SN GF-5 oil.


OP Notes: Here's some additional data. I did a 300 mile round trip to the beach today, keeping the revs below 2400 most of the way. I know that may have been a bit risky with a badly ticking engine but I try not to break a promise to the kids. Anyhow, the temperature gauge is exactly where it has always been for the life of the vehicle (nice of Honda not to calibrate that gauge). It climbs a third of the way up the scale and stays right there, even on a 90 degree afternoon. Fuel economy was as good as I have seen it on this vehicle: 21.7 MPG with half the driving on the interstates and half on state highways. The mileage was markedly better on the state highways at 50 MPH then on the interstates at 65. No surprise there. Ocean temperature at Ogunquit Beach in Maine was a refreshing 60 degrees. Oops, guess you didn't need that data... If the thing wasn't ticking like mad I would have no idea there was a problem with the engine. The Honda America rep is supposed to get a call from my local Honda dealer Monday morning. I'll let you know what they say.

 

[ltslimjim]

Well, IIRC Trav's experience relative to this discussion had an engine that saw 5,000 mile OCIs (as much as 7.5k???) on a 'name brand synthetic' that was left nameless and the issue still happened.

...and to be honest, at some point the best oils WILL break down in the face of a degraded operational environment/service seen, etc.

How much more headroom translates to how many more miles OR buy how much time? Anyone's guess. IMO.

 

[demarpaint]

^^You're right Jim.^^ The vehicle Trav wrote about and serviced did use Synthetic oil. There are times when even the very best synthetic oils can't compensate for a lousy engine design, or an OLM that isn't properly calibrated. I think in the case of this engine you have both issues. There are known sludgers, this IMO is one of Honda's, it happens.

I hope Honda does the right thing for the OP, although that might be considered an admission of guilt and they might not want to open that can of worms. We'll see soon enough.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Well, IIRC Trav's experience relative to this discussion had an engine that saw 5,000 mile OCIs (as much as 7.5k???) on a 'name brand synthetic' that was left nameless and the issue still happened.

...and to be honest, at some point the best oils WILL break down in the face of a degraded operational environment/service seen, etc.

How much more headroom translates to how many more miles OR buy how much time? Anyone's guess. IMO.


Remember - it was a group III synthetic.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Pablo


Remember - it was a group III synthetic.


Agreed, even so I think Honda screwed up, big time on this engine. Jim's right even the very best of synthetics might have only bought the OP a little more time under his operating conditions. We'll never know for sure.