What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Does a 3.5 V6 from Honda produces hot spots or higher oil temperatures?

In the iVTEC it does! Absolutely 100% and i can prove it and have done so right on this board.
This design has been a sore spot for Honda for years.


So you are advocating using a higher SAE grade of oil to mask a design flaw? As others have brought up using the recommended grade oil in a high end synthetic this problem may of never reared its head. Also I willing to state if the OCI was shortened to 1/2 of the interval this would not of happened while using Mobil conventional products.

 

[Trav]

I haven't seen or tore this engine apart but i do question the cam fail as reported by the dealer.
I suspect the tech couldn't get the valves on the rear bank adjusted properly but those are also the valves controlled by oil pressure that the ECM controls with a solenoid.

Any debris or varnish build up in that system can cause the rocker arm not to contact the stem properly giving the appearance that it cant be adjusted enough to remove excess lash.
I am thinking this maybe the case here as the cams from the ones i have seen hold up pretty well.

 

[AVB]

We don't know if he has sludge or not, he said it was more like heavy varnish. Sludge may or may not restrict oil supply.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I haven't seen or tore this engine apart but i do question the cam fail as reported by the dealer.
I suspect the tech couldn't get the valves on the rear bank adjusted properly but those are also the valves controlled by oil pressure that the ECM controls with a solenoid.

Any debris or varnish build up in that system can cause the rocker arm not to contact the stem properly giving the appearance that it cant be adjusted enough to remove excess lash.
I am thinking this maybe the case here as the cams from the ones i have seen hold up pretty well.


This sounds likely. I really think a cleaning is in order.

The cams in these engines are not prone to fail.

 

[AVB]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: AVB
What does the oil dipstick look like? The varnish and build up on the dipstick can be a indication of how dirty the engine is.


As long as there is no issue with low oil pressure which there doesn't seem to be, I would get the valves adjusted and start getting the oil changed every 3000 miles or less to try to clean the engine out.



The dipstick tip is varnished. There is no issue with low oil pressure to my knowledge. The dealer said they adjusted half of the valves but it wouldn't do any good to spend money on the other half. If I keep the vehicle I'll definitely try something to clean out the motor and run synthetic/detergent oil as you suggest.


I was thinking they started on the front bank, but it could of been the rear. There really are to many unknowns.

The only thing we know for sure is that the oil was not changed often enough.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
So you are advocating using a higher SAE grade of oil to mask a design flaw?

Yes and No. If heavier oil addresses the issue satisfactorily so be it.
Quote:
As others have brought up using the recommended grade oil in a high end synthetic this problem may of never reared its head

This happens even with common synthetic 5w20 oil with 6000-7500 or OLM OCI.
On ESP 5w30 and 0w40 6000 Mi OCI they stay perfectly clean.
I think a good GP IV oil maybe able to handle the heat better even in 5w20 but i never tried it.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
was thinking they started on the front bank, but it could of been the rear

Yes probably because its easier to get at. Didn't they get one bank adjusted okay then couldn't get the other in spec?
That would make sense if they started at the front.

 

[AVB]

I read it as they couldn't get the 1st bank they started on adjusted so they didn't attempt the other bank.

It was in the part I quoted above.

"The dealer said they adjusted half of the valves but it wouldn't do any good to spend money on the other half."

 

[buster]

Sounds like an issue similar to what Toyota was dealing with. It came down to higher engine temperatures in certain areas of the engine. This is where synthetics show their superiority. Especially the "better" synthetics.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: buster
Who thinks a good synthetic like RL 5w20, M1 EP 5w20, Amsoil 5w20, PU 5w20 would have made a difference? (Still assuming it is a poor engine design)

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: buster
Who thinks a good synthetic like RL 5w20, M1 EP 5w20, Amsoil 5w20, PU 5w20 would have made a difference? (Still assuming it is a poor engine design)

Raises hand... X2 see I'm a bit late...

No matter what the oil nerds here on BITOG or the OLM says, I consider 10Kmi on std Dino insane for ANY engine...

 

[ottotheclown]

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2160501 this thread says a name brand synthetic was used. WHAT????THIS Cannot Be!!!!

 

[Trav]

Varnish will gum the valve operating system.

This is the front head, the one that gets all the heat.

The rear head that doesn't get as hot but does get the actuating mechanism gummed up.

This is the mechanism with the small mesh filter that gets plugged.

The oil filter pad also with small mesh filter.

Old and new filter.

Engine from underneath.

Oil pan

After cleaning.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2160501 this thread says a name brand synthetic was used. WHAT????THIS Cannot Be!!!!


Group III

 

[ottotheclown]

See Boss 302 threads in link 3rd page. It really makes me laugh at times.Has to be group iv blah blah blah.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Group III

Yep. Thats why i said "common synthetic"
Funny what Mobil recommends for this engine on some other countries is heavy in Group IV or Visom.
Amsoil SSO really maybe excellent in this application also, its a good engine oil.

 

[AVB]

I agree about varnish gumming up and sticking small parts like that valve. My arguement was that it isn't likely to cause a part like the camshaft to wear out unless it was physically blocking the oil from the parts. I consider that front bank to be beyond varnish at that point.

I suspect varnish is causing a similar issue with my Grandma's 2001 BMW 325i with 160,000+ miles, it has a code for the variable cam timing. My grandparents are good at staying on top of vehicle maintenance, but I am not sure about the previous owner (my aunt). They service the BMW every 15,000 miles like the manual and service indicator says. Until the most recent service they had the BMW dealer service the car, I do not know what kind of oil was being used. The last oil change I used Mobil 1 5w30EP and a Mobil 1 EP filter. The filter was $23 at AAP and was made in China (I won't buy another), so next service I may try a Napa Platinum or order a filter online. I also have some PU I may try next oil change.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
I consider that front bank to be beyond varnish at that point

Yep no doubt about that.
Varnish can cause a lot of weird issues in some systems if it gets beyond the cosmetic light stain.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
i think the weight of the oil is more to blame. i believe these v6 should use 5w-30 at the very least. OP did mention the noise went away for a week using a high mileage(thicker) oil..5w20?

0w-20 and 5w-20 is only for epa ratings! and slightly better protection in REALLY cold weather




I think this maybe partially true.
The thin oil brigade will tell you 0w20 doesn't shear out of grade but as soon as heat comes into the equation manufacturers specs change.
Like the Ford ecoboost with turbocharging and other turbo engines the OEM's recommends 5w30 or even higher viscosity.
Why?

Heat is an issue with engine on the front bank, i also believe the 0w20 oil is partially to blame along with bad design.
Not the brand of oil but the grade.
I honestly believe its just too thin for this application, running heavier weight oils and seeing the results in the real world seem to confirm this.


Believe what you want, but obviously Honda will spec a synthetic 5W-30 (HTO-6) for higher temp turbo applications, as has Ford, when needed. What's your point? That Honda has a rule against spec'ing heavier oils in naturally aspirated V6's, but not turbos?

 

[Trav]

Quote:
What's your point? That Honda has a rule against spec'ing heavier oils in naturally aspirated V6's

Well i don't know about the V6 but the S2000 wasn't 5w20.
Why not?
Honda has made the statement that it wants to appear a "green" company, who really knows how much of a role that plays into their decisions.

Quote:
Believe what you want

I base my opinions on verifiable visual observations from tearing engines down professionally for 38 yrs and actually seeing, measuring, etc whats going on inside them.
Believe it or not you own eyes can sometimes provide just as much info as some spec sheet.