What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

[uart]

I was the one who said I thought Trav's explanation is exactly what's going on here.

Yes that was an exaggeration. What I meant to say was it is by far the most likely scenario that's has been presented here so far. An explanation which is far more constructive than saying silly things like there is no problem or calling the OP a troll.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Thirdly, I'd still love to see a photograph through the oil fill hole. Were you able to get a card reader to get your photograph off your camera? I'm not calling you a dishonest person, but all this thread is based on so far is an internet post.


Sorry you missed my post on 7/712 at 11:28PM. A link to my pictures are there. What do you think?

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
if you ran 300 miles with the engine in this supposed state, either a) nothing is really wrong or b) its past time to carmax this thing before it nukes and you are left holding the bag.


Hi. Didn't say there was nothing wrong. There is a wicked tick in the top end as described in my previous post. Can't say if performance under load is off because I'm not going to push it. Thanks.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Here are the images for others who don't have access to google or don't like clicking on links.

Bill

 

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH

Hi. Didn't say there was nothing wrong. There is a wicked tick in the top end as described in my previous post. Can't say if performance under load is off because I'm not going to push it. Thanks.


Adam,

I know you posted that you are capable of changing your own oil at home on your minivan.

I have a question for you along the same lines:

Would you be willing to remove the two parts that Trav outlined in his posts on his customers that had similar issues to what you're having?

They appear to be simple o-ring sealed parts, so you should be able to simply unbolt them in about 30 minutes (according to Trav's posts), and see if those screens are plugged up. You could take some pictures of the screens, and post them up, and provide them to your Honda dealer, and then clean the screens, and put everything back together.

If it's the oil screens causing the ticking, then the ticking should be reduced after the cleaning. If something else is causing then you're still in the same boat, but at least you would know the screens are clean, and you ruled out one more thing to check on.

If it were my car, I would be cleaning the screens that Trav recommended, regardless of waiting to hear back from Honda. I wouldn't expect to hear anything positive back from them since you are considerably outside of warranty.

But, that's just me.
Sorry to hear about the issues you're having with your minivan.

BC.

 

[mechanicx]

I'm not convinced that this engine really needs anything more than a valve adjustment, and the varnished cleaned by a stint of short OCI with a good motor oil, and maybe valve actuators cleaned or replaced. The engine has valve noise, but is it low on power, consuming oil, running bad or knocking?

It's possible the MM is programmed too long for this engine in certain driving cycles, and regardless of synthetic or conventional. It's also possible the oil wasn't actually always changed by the service center and maybe regular Mobil Clean was primarily used.

In general, I think short trips are usually the biggest factor in an oil sludging and not heat. Short trips are the worst and can still beat up oil in as low as 3k miles. You can take the same vehicle, same oil and drive 8k+ mile OCI highway and it will be cleaner than 3K mile short trip.

While some synthetics have more cleaning ability and lower Noack, I don't think garden variety synthetics necessarily allow significantly extending the oil change interval or keep the engine cleaner than premium conventionals. Especially not in the short trip scenario. They're both API SM/SN GF4/5. Now if the synthetic is an EP like Mobil 1 EP, or has one of the European approvals like longlife-04, Mobil 1 OW40 or maybe A5-08 or -10 (do any general over the counter synthetics have it?), or maybe Amsoil that might be different.

I still change short trip vehicles as often as every 6 months and ~3k miles, despite the oil monitor calling for 1 year/~7k miles and I use conventional. But that's just me.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH

Hi. Didn't say there was nothing wrong. There is a wicked tick in the top end as described in my previous post. Can't say if performance under load is off because I'm not going to push it. Thanks.


Adam,

I know you posted that you are capable of changing your own oil at home on your minivan.

I have a question for you along the same lines:

Would you be willing to remove the two parts that Trav outlined in his posts on his customers that had similar issues to what you're having?

They appear to be simple o-ring sealed parts, so you should be able to simply unbolt them in about 30 minutes (according to Trav's posts), and see if those screens are plugged up. You could take some pictures of the screens, and post them up, and provide them to your Honda dealer, and then clean the screens, and put everything back together.

If it's the oil screens causing the ticking, then the ticking should be reduced after the cleaning. If something else is causing then you're still in the same boat, but at least you would know the screens are clean, and you ruled out one more thing to check on.

If it were my car, I would be cleaning the screens that Trav recommended, regardless of waiting to hear back from Honda. I wouldn't expect to hear anything positive back from them since you are considerably outside of warranty.

But, that's just me.
Sorry to hear about the issues you're having with your minivan.

BC.


Yes, I'll look at pulling those screens for cleaning and make sure to take a pic as soon as I get them apart. I have been thinking about that myself and will find some time ASAP.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
. The engine has valve noise, but is it low on power, consuming oil, running bad or knocking?

In general, I think short trips are usually the biggest factor in an oil sludging and not heat.



Bad clicking, YES. Seems to run well otherwise. No oil consumption, , no knocking. As stated previously, few short trips. Mostly 30 minutes or linger on the interstate at 75MPH.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Bill, thank you for posting the pictures, and Adam, thank you for taking them.

I'm with mechanix on this issue. The view through the oil fill hole demonstrates that there is varnish. It doesn't look like excessive varnish, but it's there. Is it worse further inside the head? We don't know right now. Did the technician at the dealership remark about an excessive level of sludge or varnish formation? I imagine he removed that front cylinder head cover to adjust at least the front valves. If the technician found the cylinder head to be caked up as much as some of the stuff that Trav posted, I would like to think that he would have mentioned that.

His (technician's) observation is that the cams were worn down too much to adjust the valves. There's a wide range of valve adjustment available, and I'm not sure I'd take his observation as gospel at this point. In fact, if you recall, I've been skeptical of the cam wear philosophy from the beginning. Fuel economy is the same as before, power is the same as before, and you notice no other symptoms besides the loud valvetrain. Is that correct? If the cams were worn too low to adjust properly, I have to think that you would feel a significant reduction in power, or there would be other operational symptoms besides only a clicking noise.

Here's what I would do. If I were mechanically-inclined, I'd remove the front cylinder head cover myself and check the valve lash adjustment. This requires some knowledge of the operation and at least a set of feeler gauges. If you're not comfortable with that, I would have an independent garage diagnose the problem. I wouldn't let them "fix" anything less they called you first. They may say that the cams are fine and all they need are an adjustment. They may confirm the technician's observation that they're ground down too much to adjust right. At this point, we don't know.

So therefore, I will also parrot what Trav has already said: get a second opinion, and I wouldn't get a second opinion from a Honda dealer. I'd get one from an independent garage that you trust or that comes recommended by others. Someone else taking the cylinder head cover off to measure the cam wear will in no way, shape, or form change your chances of Honda helping you out on this if there is indeed a mechanical engine problem. But it will confirm what's already been told to you (or disprove it).

 

[silverrat]

Anybody think this could be related to the dealer maybe resetting the maintenance minder without changing the oil a couple of times?

 

[ottotheclown]

Yes it is failing at 90k, now let us Move On, get the waiter over here asap!!

 

[uart]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Did the technician at the dealership remark about an excessive level of sludge or varnish formation? I imagine he removed that front cylinder head cover to adjust at least the front valves. If the technician found the cylinder head to be caked up as much as some of the stuff that Trav posted, I would like to think that he would have mentioned that.


First few lines of the opening post.
Quote:
At almost 90K miles the dealer went to do a valve adjustment but instead told me that the engine has heavy sludge which caused premature wear of the camshafts

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: uart
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Did the technician at the dealership remark about an excessive level of sludge or varnish formation? I imagine he removed that front cylinder head cover to adjust at least the front valves. If the technician found the cylinder head to be caked up as much as some of the stuff that Trav posted, I would like to think that he would have mentioned that.


First few lines of the opening post.
Quote:
At almost 90K miles the dealer went to do a valve adjustment but instead told me that the engine has heavy sludge which caused premature wear of the camshafts


There's still a chance the tech attempted and messed up the valve adjustment too. Then said the cam was bad. It wouldn't be the first time, someone attempts an adjustment, can't do it, and blames the cam.

Its a shame Trav won't post in this thread anymore, he worked on a few of these engines with similar problems. My buddy Willie is also a tech who works on this and shared comments almost identical to Trav's.

I'd get another opinion too.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Did the technician at the dealership remark about an excessive level of sludge or varnish formation? I imagine he removed that front cylinder head cover to adjust at least the front valves. If the technician found the cylinder head to be caked up as much as some of the stuff that Trav posted, I would like to think that he would have mentioned that.


First the dealer's service writer told me "Heavy sludge", but later when I asked the Service Manager for confirmation, he checked with the tech and told me "Heavy varnish". Also, the Writer told be they had not touched the second valve train, while the Manager told me they did a complete valve adjustment. The Manager also told me he would call the Honda Rep yesterday and call me back. He did not call me, so that's three inconsistent statements and therefore I now have to question the service departments overall integrity. At this point I'm going to hear what the Honda America rep has to say today, and then decide to pull the internal filter screens myself or have another great mechanic I know pull both the cam covers and drop the oil pan and have a really good look. Either way you can bet I'll post the pictures here

 

[Vikas]

Then there was a case of DIY who had lot of problems after adjusting valves on his Odyssey. Well, finally it dawned on to him that he used inch feeler gauge but read the mm specs

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
At this point I'm going to hear what the Honda America rep has to say today, and then decide to pull the internal filter screens myself or have another great mechanic I know pull both the cam covers and drop the oil pan and have a really good look. Either way you can bet I'll post the pictures here


If you know a good mechanic already, I would trust him more than I would trust what the dealer has told you at this point, especially since it's hard to verify any of it.

 

[uart]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
At this point I'm going to hear what the Honda America rep has to say today, and then decide to pull the internal filter screens myself or have another great mechanic I know pull both the cam covers and drop the oil pan and have a really good look. Either way you can bet I'll post the pictures here


Yes, at this point it only really makes sense to go with the dealers service dept if you manage to get some kind of warranty claim out of this. Then if they want to fix it by changing the head(s) then let them go for it.

If OTOH you're spending you own money to fix it then I'd recommend having a go at just cleaning it up first. I'd probably try something like this.

1. Give it one short oil change interval.

2. Give it a short run with a cleaner in the oil (get recommendations from members here on whats best).

3. Pull off the vtec unit and clean the screen.

4. Give it a couple more short oci's to clean it up some more and then take it to an independent mech to get the valves adjusted (if still needed).

 

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Then there was a case of DIY who had lot of problems after adjusting valves on his Odyssey. Well, finally it dawned on to him that he used inch feeler gauge but read the mm specs


You wouldn't believe how often that happens in the motorcycle world.

If the van in question was here in Colorado, I would offer any assistance that Adam would be willing to accept. I love a good mystery.

BC.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
. The engine has valve noise, but is it low on power, consuming oil, running bad or knocking?

In general, I think short trips are usually the biggest factor in an oil sludging and not heat.



Bad clicking, YES. Seems to run well otherwise. No oil consumption, , no knocking. As stated previously, few short trips. Mostly 30 minutes or linger on the interstate at 75MPH.


The 30 minute highway driving definitely helps and you should've been able to gone your OCI. But cold starts and driving even for 30 mins on the freeway at temperatures well below freezing can still be severe service. You should only get varnish at worst and not sludge though assuming the oil was actually changed and the engine is not a sludger.

I don't run conventional for longer than 6 months, but I do a lot of short trips. I think 6 months is good insurance even if the MM calls for longer. Of course heat could've been a factor, but that's just reason I don't run my winter fill through the summer. I'm sure after this is sorted out you'll no longer have faith in the MM.

 

[Vikas]

OP can also beg, grovel, cajole, bribe to Trav as he is in the same geographical area.