What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

[Adam_in_NH]

OP's update: Today the Honda America Area Rep declined any assistance to the dealer. The dealer suggested to the rep that he should look at this forum and the dealer told me that the rep was not interested. I asked the dealer for the Honda Reps phone number and he told me that the rep does not take consumer calls, and told me to call the Honda consumer phone number. He did say that he would ask the rep to meet with me next time he was in town.

I then took my Honda Pilot to a mechanic I trust. He looked at the motor again and referred me to two other local garages that work on allot of Hondas. I inquired with the other two and all three commented that is did not look like the cam covers had been removed. One said that he would be happy to get right into the motor and do a thorough diagnostic for several hundred bucks and the other told me that although it sounds really nasty he would not open anything up until I run a solvent through it with a couple of short-mile oil changes to remove the varnish. None of the other mechanics wanted to open the motor up until I had chance to personally speak to the Honda Area rep.

Of course I immediately returned to the dealer and confronted the Manager about the others comments that the engine had not been opened up by the dealer. He said that he personally saw the engine open and got the tech to come out to explain to me how he did the complete valve adjustment. I asked him about what looked like factory silicon and no new silicon and he told me that the gaskets did not require it. He DID confirm some previous comments here that the front head was much more varnished then the rear. It didn't sound like he made that detail up so I have to admit that its just as likely that he did indeed open it up.

He also added that he had NOT done any real diagnosis other then the re-torquing the cam girdle and adjusting the valves. He said that he called the Honda America service line and was told that if the noise didn't go away with a valve adjustment then the problems were likely worn cam lobes and then cylinder heads, and possibly some lower end damage. But this is a call center tech telling him this, which the service writer repeated to me, implying that my engine was junk.

Here is what I think I should do. Please tell me if this makes sense.

1) Keep pressing the issue with Honda America.

2) Return to the dealer, ask him remove the front cam cover and take 'before' pictures as he has offered to do. This documents the degree of the dino oil additives breaking down and coating the inside of the engine.

3) Ask him to clean or change the VCM solenoid filters as Trav recommended. If Honda does it they can't say I messed with it. The dealer's tech said that if these filters were plugged I would get an engine warning indicator immediately, which I didn't. Still this seems an obvious troubleshooting task.

4) Try and clean up the varnish with a good oil solvent and a couple of oil changes and run a good grade of synthetic oil. Because this is actually varnish and not sludge it seems to me that this can't hurt and may help. One of the other mechanics commented that he does this all the time and rarely has to do anything else to get rid of the lifter noise on a vehicle with only 90K miles. Remember that when I ran the first charge of high-mileage oil the ticking went away for a short period of time.

5) If the above has no effect then get one of the other mechanics to take it apart and do a more complete diagnostic, and proceed based on what he discovers.

Friends, I really appreciate ALL your continued interest and thanks in particular to Trav for posting the great pics along with his informed perspective on this mystery.

 

[LeakySeals]

Can I ask how many miles currently since you changed the oil?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Friends, I really appreciate ALL your continued interest and thanks in particular to Trav for posting the great pics along with his informed perspective on this mystery.


I would say your plan is eminently sensible. I don't know why the Honda America rep is washing his hands of this.

 

[crazy8]

Adam, I would wait until you hear from the Honda rep. to hear what they have to say, if they are no help I would find a Honda specialist at a indy shop and take the car to them for a professional opinion and repair if it's repairable.

Just my opinion from a shop owner of 35 years.

Adam, I posted this before I read your latest update, it is no suprise that Honda will not help. I believe your beef should be with the servicing dealer for using a oil that may not meet honda's specs. you should look in your owners manuel and see if the Mobil bulk actually meets Hondas spec. I think it's nuts not to use at least a synthetic blend for a 10k oil change, we recommend to our customers a full synthetic for all oil changes over 7500 miles, we use Mobil 1 for most unless our customer has a specific request for a different brand. Good luck.

 

[dave1251]

The Mobil bulk 5W20 exceeds Honda's requirements. All that is required for this model and year is API certified. I believe this failure is attributed more to poor engine design and low oil sump capacity.

Adam keep putting pressure on your area service representative.

Also in situations like this good old snail mail works wonders. Send a well worded, detailed, and polite letter to Honda America
about your situation.

American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
Honda Automobile Customer Service
1919 Torrance Boulevard
Mail Stop: 500 - 2N - 7A
Torrance, CA 90501-2746

Send a CC also to Honda Corporate.

2-1-1 Minami-Aoyama, Minato-ku, Tokyo, 107-8556, Japan

I presume your warranty has expired but you may get Honda to cover some of the repair cost as a "goodwill" offer. Be polite and keep a written log of all interactions.

 

[Xstang]

I don't mean to rattle people here (seems to be a serious thread), but I want to lay out a couple points:

Can the OP just pop the valve/timing cover for himself and see what it looks like? That would answer 20+ pages of speculation. No, the fillhole shot doesn't cut it.

If a dealer told me my car was wrecked by sludge and needed a mega $$$ service to get rid of it, I'd get a second opinion first. I've had wildly different quotes to do the exact same job at two different places, so it pays to shop around.

Saying "all 3.5L Honda engines are identical" is really misinformed. Honda loves making variants of the same design, and they do behave differently. The lowly yet forever dependable D series is a great example of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_d_engine. Personally, I'd like to have an EG hatch with a B18c5 and an LS transmission for the autobahn. It's still just a civic, right?

Whomever created cylinder deactivation should be shot, or at least forced to drive a Morris Morina fitted with the aluminum brakes from a Lada. With electrics from a Fiat. And bolts and screws from a Triumph. Painted by the same people that painted 3rd gen Camaros and Firebirds.

Lastly, and call me a heretic for this one, if a car is that bad off, why not just sell it? Used market is bonkers right now, would bring good money.

 

[Familyguy]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
OP's update: Today the Honda America Area Rep declined any assistance to the dealer. The dealer suggested to the rep that he should look at this forum and the dealer told me that the rep was not interested. I asked the dealer for the Honda Reps phone number and he told me that the rep does not take consumer calls, and told me to call the Honda consumer phone number. He did say that he would ask the rep to meet with me next time he was in town.

I then took my Honda Pilot to a mechanic I trust. He looked at the motor again and referred me to two other local garages that work on allot of Hondas. I inquired with the other two and all three commented that is did not look like the cam covers had been removed. One said that he would be happy to get right into the motor and do a thorough diagnostic for several hundred bucks and the other told me that although it sounds really nasty he would not open anything up until I run a solvent through it with a couple of short-mile oil changes to remove the varnish. None of the other mechanics wanted to open the motor up until I had chance to personally speak to the Honda Area rep.

Of course I immediately returned to the dealer and confronted the Manager about the others comments that the engine had not been opened up by the dealer. He said that he personally saw the engine open and got the tech to come out to explain to me how he did the complete valve adjustment. I asked him about what looked like factory silicon and no new silicon and he told me that the gaskets did not require it. He DID confirm some previous comments here that the front head was much more varnished then the rear. It didn't sound like he made that detail up so I have to admit that its just as likely that he did indeed open it up.

He also added that he had NOT done any real diagnosis other then the re-torquing the cam girdle and adjusting the valves. He said that he called the Honda America service line and was told that if the noise didn't go away with a valve adjustment then the problems were likely worn cam lobes and then cylinder heads, and possibly some lower end damage. But this is a call center tech telling him this, which the service writer repeated to me, implying that my engine was junk.

Here is what I think I should do. Please tell me if this makes sense.

1) Keep pressing the issue with Honda America.

2) Return to the dealer, ask him remove the front cam cover and take 'before' pictures as he has offered to do. This documents the degree of the dino oil additives breaking down and coating the inside of the engine.

3) Ask him to clean or change the VCM solenoid filters as Trav recommended. If Honda does it they can't say I messed with it. The dealer's tech said that if these filters were plugged I would get an engine warning indicator immediately, which I didn't. Still this seems an obvious troubleshooting task.

4) Try and clean up the varnish with a good oil solvent and a couple of oil changes and run a good grade of synthetic oil. Because this is actually varnish and not sludge it seems to me that this can't hurt and may help. One of the other mechanics commented that he does this all the time and rarely has to do anything else to get rid of the lifter noise on a vehicle with only 90K miles. Remember that when I ran the first charge of high-mileage oil the ticking went away for a short period of time.

5) If the above has no effect then get one of the other mechanics to take it apart and do a more complete diagnostic, and proceed based on what he discovers.

Friends, I really appreciate ALL your continued interest and thanks in particular to Trav for posting the great pics along with his informed perspective on this mystery.


Sounds like a reasonable course of action. Betcha the noise goes away after a few short oil change intervals with the solvent du jour. It's interesting that another mechanic(s?) didn't think the valve covers had even been removed. It's usually pretty obvious because you've got "clean spots" around the bolts and fresh RTV.

Even though I was quite happy with my older gen J35 motor, reading this would give me pause when considering a purchase of a new Honda.

Good luck!

 

[salv]

I work as a service advisor for another dealership network. Even though our manuals claim that the vehicles can go 7500 between oil changes, we advise our customers to follow the severe service schedule of 3750 miles regardless of synthetic or conventional oils, and we make their oil change stickers for 3 months or 3750 miles. If one of our customers insists on going by the maximum OCI, we advise regularly checking the oil level and condition.
If we get a vehicle with a failed motor outside of warranty, even with complete service records, we let our customer's know that we can appeal to the manufacturer, but they are under no obligation to provide assistance.
While our vehicles do not utilize an OLM, we do advise customers whose vehicles do have them, to treat them as a gimmick designed to make people feel like they have a lower maintenance vehicle. They are more of a timer than an exact science. I had an Accord with "15%" oil life come in with engine noise. It was 2 quarts low. Once the oil was changed it was fine.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: salv

While our vehicles do not utilize an OLM, we do advise customers whose vehicles do have them, to treat them as a gimmick designed to make people feel like they have a lower maintenance vehicle.


My thoughts exactly!!!!!! I ignore mine, in fact I wish I could stop it from coming on all together.

You'd better hide, flames are a comin.

 

[Unearthed]

I think if Honda was ever going to help you out of warranty, that went out the window with the last 4 oil changes being done at Jiffy Lube. Not that I think anything went wrong there, but talk about an "out" for Honda?

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Of course I immediately returned to the dealer and confronted the Manager about the others comments that the engine had not been opened up by the dealer. He said that he personally saw the engine open and got the tech to come out to explain to me how he did the complete valve adjustment. I asked him about what looked like factory silicon and no new silicon and he told me that the gaskets did not require it. He DID confirm some previous comments here that the front head was much more varnished then the rear. It didn't sound like he made that detail up so I have to admit that its just as likely that he did indeed open it up.

He also added that he had NOT done any real diagnosis other then the re-torquing the cam girdle and adjusting the valves. He said that he called the Honda America service line and was told that if the noise didn't go away with a valve adjustment then the problems were likely worn cam lobes and then cylinder heads, and possibly some lower end damage. But this is a call center tech telling him this, which the service writer repeated to me, implying that my engine was junk.


I have two discussion points.

First: the dealer is now telling you that the tech did a complete valve adjustment before? I thought they had said that the front valves were so out of adjustment, they didn't even attempt the back. Now, it seems like they are telling you that they removed BOTH cylinder head covers, and even did the valve adjustment on the front and on the back? This smells fishy to me. Maybe I mis-read your earlier posts about the tech only doing half of the valves.

Second: they're telling you that the cams are "likely" worn? They didn't actually put a micrometer on them?

It sounds like Honda has already turned their back on you.

So I would do the rest of it myself. Have the local mechanic who is willing to work with you remove both valve covers, and document what's underneath with photographs. Have him measure the wear on the cam lobes (as time-consuming as that may be on this SOHC V-6 design, with the cam under the roller followers). It's your money I'm spending for you here, but I would let them do their diagnosis and present their recommendations to you.

I actually have a third discussion point: I don't think the Jiffy Lube changes give Honda an "out" at all. It clearly states that dealership maintenance is not required, but that documentation of maintenance is required. As long as the oil changes at Jiffy Lube are documented, Honda has no reason to use that against the owner. Now, the vehicle is clearly 30,000 miles past the end of warranty coverage...THAT is Honda's "out" here. Goodwill consideration would be nice to have, but nobody's really entitled to it.

 

[Merkava_4]

Your engine is shot, but think of all the oil you saved!! Those 3000 mile OCI's are a waste of good oil.

 

[Sonic]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
My conclusion is that the maintenance minder on this vehicle was operating in error by letting conventional oil run as long as it did


Isn't that you?

 

[VNTS]

Gee

From reading all the posts here over the years, everyone seems to imply that Honda always steps up and pays for every major repair out of warrany as good will gesture? Guess not

I would yank the [censored] valve covers off and snap some pictures.
If it is sludged up then either clean it up and have it repaired or get rid of it.

Per adjusting valves, what a poor design if your stuck in 2012 adjusting valves waste of time!

 

[doitmyself]

If you are concerned about the costs involved with your dilemma and trying to get satisfaction, you are good to keep pursuing this "by the book" (document EVERYTHING).

It seems that the dealer is still attempting to keep communication open. That's good.

Unless Honda has an iron clad problem at hand (i.e., bad batch of head bolts), they will not cave in on the first attempt. Your problem is somewhat in the gray area. If they cave, they face the consequences of everyone else in this predicament asking for the same results.

Auto companies seldom roll over on the first attempt. Keep in mind my suggestion to resort to a Lemon law lawyer as the last resort. Honda has no incentive to give up easy.

Best of luck.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: VNTS
From reading all the posts here over the years, everyone seems to imply that Honda always steps up and pays for every major repair out of warrany as good will gesture?


I haven't gotten that vibe at all. Goodwill repair is an option that every auto maker has as its disposal, but nobody should feel entitled to it, or assume that one will automatically get it.

Originally Posted By: VNTS
Per adjusting valves, what a poor design if your stuck in 2012 adjusting valves waste of time!


OT, but manually-adjusted valves offer some benefits. They're more efficient than hydraulic lifters and offer very exact motion translation from cam lobe to lifter arm. Valve adjustments are normally very easy and are a non-cost maintenance item that may take an hour to do every 100k miles for a DIYer. You don't really get "bad lifters" or lifters that bleed down or start ticking. If valve adjustment becomes loose, it's easy to adjust. If hydraulic lifters become faulty, they're not necessarily easy to replace.

I've owned a lot of clackity hydraulic lifter engines (admittedly, mostly cam-in-block designs) and prefer the smoother operation of a valve where you can set the lash manually.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Here's my answers to the questions from the previous few posts:

680 miles on my Honda Pilot since my last oil change. Current odometer 90,575. Ticking began at about 80,000 miles.

I have called the Honda America consumer line again and will continue to put pressure on them, including writing letters as suggested. My position is that although my warranty has expired its pretty obvious that the problem which caused the ticking was evident yet remained undetected while the vehicle was well withing its warranty period. My intent is to get the vehicle repaired by Honda as a warranty repair.

The dealer has offered to take pictures so I have called him to schedule them to pull the cover to do just that. I have also asked them about checking/cleaning/changing the valve train filters. I would do it but I'm not a certified mechanic I don't want my work to put the warranty situation into a gray area. Hopefully we will be taking pictures this afternoon.

Yes, the dealer's service writer told me they only did adjusted the front valve train but later the Service Manager told me they did a complete valve adjustment. This was confirmed by the tech yesterday.

My dealer did not measure the cam when he had it apart. He relied on his Honda Dealer service line to diagnose (more like guess) at the next course of action if the tick was not resolved. I asked him why yesterday and he told me they were too tough to get at and told me we would have to remove the cam girdle and several other components and spend a couple of hours more on it to find that out. So I checked with a different mechanic and by the time I called him back he had "buttoned it back up".

I considered trading the vehicle in but that's not an option for me because I was just divorced recently and am not in a financial position to replace the vehicle. Also I would not want some used car dealer to do a 'quick fix' on this and pawn the problem off on some good person who needs a problem-free vehicle for their work commute or family trips.

 

[K20FA5]

Good Luck Adam!

Our 2009 Pilot was also having the really nasty black oil when I drained it out when it was newer. I have since switched to Pennzoil Ultra 5w-20 and 5000 mile OCI's. The oil now drains out nice and "normal" (for used oil) looking.

Ours has only burned oil one time (1/2 qt) when I switched over from conventional to Ultra. We've got just over 50,000 miles on it now.

 

[millerbl00]

Sorry to hear about your problems. I had a 2001 Honda. Engine died at 10,000 miles. Bought it brand new. Did oil changes every 3,000 miles. Honda would not help or honor warranty. I guess they dont have too.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

I am documenting everything and am researching Lemon Law Lawyers just in case.