What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

What you say is true, but a Honda should last more than 90K before developing a problem like this.


I've been following this thread just because it is interesting and I hope the OP gets some results out of this. However...as posted before, if Honda fixes this one there will be a long line of other cars that will want their cars fixed beyond the warranty also. I'm thinking Honda will not warranty this, but I wish the owner all the best.


They probably won't, but they might. It depends on how good a fight the OP puts up, and how many rounds he's willing to go. If there's a long list of people with the same problem under 100K miles, then IMO this engine sucks!

Reminds me of the Odyssey and V6 Accord transmissions.

 

[crazy8]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
The Mobil bulk 5W20 exceeds Honda's requirements. All that is required for this model and year is API certified. I believe this failure is attributed more to poor engine design and low oil sump capacity.

Adam keep putting pressure on your area service representative.

Also in situations like this good old snail mail works wonders. Send a well worded, detailed, and polite letter to Honda America
about your situation.

American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
Honda Automobile Customer Service
1919 Torrance Boulevard
Mail Stop: 500 - 2N - 7A
Torrance, CA 90501-2746

Send a CC also to Honda Corporate.

2-1-1 Minami-Aoyama, Minato-ku, Tokyo, 107-8556, Japan

I presume your warranty has expired but you may get Honda to cover some of the repair cost as a "goodwill" offer. Be polite and keep a written log of all interactions.

Dave, do you know if the Mobil bulk is a synthetic blend? I also agree that the design is not very well thought out.

 

[crazyoildude]

bring it to a reliable engine shop the Stealer is not an engine expert.
Honda is not what they used to be we see lots of Honda engines at my shop for rebuilds

 

[dave1251]

I do not know if Mobil bulk oils are a synthetic blend. I just know for 2009 Honda Pilots the requirement is API certified no mention of synthetic blend. This is still the case for a 2012 Pilot but it should be 0W20.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: kender

WOW!!! A common sense post about OCI's. Nice to see. So far haven't seen any from the BITOGER's that insist you must squeeze every dollop of TBN out of your oil or you're "wasting good oil". Like Mike Rowe says...."change your oil"!!!!

Forget about the engine!! Don't waste the oil!!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
bring it to a reliable engine shop the Stealer is not an engine expert.
Honda is not what they used to be


+ 1

 

[Unearthed]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd


I actually have a third discussion point: I don't think the Jiffy Lube changes give Honda an "out" at all. It clearly states that dealership maintenance is not required, but that documentation of maintenance is required. As long as the oil changes at Jiffy Lube are documented, Honda has no reason to use that against the owner. Now, the vehicle is clearly 30,000 miles past the end of warranty coverage...THAT is Honda's "out" here. Goodwill consideration would be nice to have, but nobody's really entitled to it.


Yeah, that's true for in-warranty stuff. This is not in warranty and would be a "good will" repair. When you can't even claim you had your vehicle maintained by a Honda dealer the whole time you owned it, they won't be too inclined to help you out.

Another question. When is the manufacturer actually absolved of their written clear as day 60k mile warranty? If not 90k, 100? 125? 150?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Unearthed


Another question. When is the manufacturer actually absolved of their written clear as day 60k mile warranty? If not 90k, 100? 125? 150?



IMO there is nothing clear as day after the warranty is up. Honda is not obligated to do anything. A person would hope they'd get at least 40K more than the 60K warranty Honda offers. Doesn't look that way here. IMO if the OP followed the MM he should let others know of the problems he had, and if/how Honda resolved the problems.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Unearthed


Another question. When is the manufacturer actually absolved of their written clear as day 60k mile warranty? If not 90k, 100? 125? 150?



IMO there is nothing clear as day after the warranty is up. Honda is not obligated to do anything. A person would hope they'd get at least 40K more than the 60K warranty Honda offers. Doesn't look that way here. IMO if the OP followed the MM he should let others know of the problems he had, and if/how Honda resolved the problems.


My position remains that the problem began and got progressively worse while the vehicle was well within its warranty period and should be covered. IMHO just because the maintenance minder allowed the hot front cylinder bank to essentially cook the conventional oil into varnish well before and after the 60,000 mile mark doesn't mean that Honda should not be responsible for a bad combination design factors. If the tech doing the oil changes was doing a thorough job he would have seen the unusually black oil and smelled the odor after it had been burnt. We are opening the engine up tomorrow afternoon and I'll get the pictures right up.

 

[demarpaint]

I'm on your side. I sold Honda vehicles and came to the conclusion they aren't what they're cracked up to be.

As far as the tech changing your oil seeing anything unusual, I doubt it. Most don't care, and the few that do are a rare find. The truth is had you caught the problem early with no drive-ability symptoms they'd probably have told you it was normal, and sent you on your way.

 

[Vikas]

I just searched for "sludge" on Odyssey Forum on 2005-2010 models. The only reference I got was from somebody who read Trav's adventure with that particular Odyssey. That was the one which was claimed to have Mobil-1 every 7500. As far as I know Trav assured us that even though he did NOT personally did the OCI on that vehicle, he had no reason to doubt the veracity of 7500 Mobil-1 OCI.

The Odyssey forum is littered with blown transmission, I mean every other topic is "my transmission died, please help". As I said before, the only reference to the so called sludge problem was to the topic I mentioned above. He posted it as a poll and to get more data. Surprisingly, none of the participants in that forum came back and said that they found sludge in their engine. NONE.

Compare the pictures posted by the OP (10K OCI on dino) and by Trav (7.5K on Mobil-1). Tell me which one looks worse and then try to explain it rationally. You can't! Logically, if 7500 Mobil-1 caused that much sludge, OP's 10K dino would have solid grease under the oil cap! He does NOT even have CEL or any other engine related symptoms or drive-ability problems apart from the noise. That Odyssey had check engine light active.

I am not disputing that this particular Honda 3.5 VCM could have problems. HOWEVER, I am claiming that this is extremely isolated and not widespread at all. There is likely to be something else going on with that engine which is causing the issue besides the long OCI. Otherwise, the Internet would be littered with this problem like the typical Honda V6 transmission woes.

They all do that is NOT the right answer. The evidence presented so far does not lead to that conclusion.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
I just searched for "sludge" on Odyssey Forum on 2005-2010 models. The only reference I got was from somebody who read Trav's adventure with that particular Odyssey. That was the one which was claimed to have Mobil-1 every 7500. As far as I know Trav assured us that even though he did NOT personally did the OCI on that vehicle, he had no reason to doubt the veracity of 7500 Mobil-1 OCI.

The Odyssey forum is littered with blown transmission, I mean every other topic is "my transmission died, please help". As I said before, the only reference to the so called sludge problem was to the topic I mentioned above. He posted it as a poll and to get more data. Surprisingly, none of the participants in that forum came back and said that they found sludge in their engine. NONE.

Compare the pictures posted by the OP (10K OCI on dino) and by Trav (7.5K on Mobil-1). Tell me which one looks worse and then try to explain it rationally. You can't! Logically, if 7500 Mobil-1 caused that much sludge, OP's 10K dino would have solid grease under the oil cap! He does NOT even have CEL or any other engine related symptoms or drive-ability problems apart from the noise. That Odyssey had check engine light active.

I am not disputing that this particular Honda 3.5 VCM could have problems. HOWEVER, I am claiming that this is extremely isolated and not widespread at all. There is likely to be something else going on with that engine which is causing the issue besides the long OCI. Otherwise, the Internet would be littered with this problem like the typical Honda V6 transmission woes.

They all do that is NOT the right answer. The evidence presented so far does not lead to that conclusion.


This is how facts get screwed up. Trav never mentioned the brand of oil used, he did say it was a premium Group 3 synthetic. Out of the 4 or 5 that he worked on, I know one was his brothers, and he knows for certain the OCI, because he did many of them himself. I know the oil, it was not a Mobil product and it is not for publication.

Some of those of those Honda's where used in much more severe service than the OP's.

You say QUOTE: Compare the pictures posted by the OP (10K OCI on dino) and by Trav (7.5K on Mobil-1). Tell me which one looks worse and then try to explain it rationally. You can't!

Simple!!! The engines that run in ECO mode the most will show the greatest amount of heavy varnish and sludge deposits. This is from real world experience and not searching the Internet forums. Believe what you want the pictures Trav posted are hard to despite. Do you own a Honda Odyssey with this engine? This is not one of the more common Honda engines, and they are just starting to get to the 80,000-100,000 mile range where problems will occur.

This is why Trav won't be posting in threads like this anymore. He showed pictures, and data, and yet it is still attacked by people who really don't know what is going on and have no hands on experience with these engines.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
This is why Trav won't be posting in threads like this anymore. He showed pictures, and data, and yet it is still attacked by people who really don't know what is going on and have no hands on experience with these engines.


And I don't blame him.
He tried to help total strangers to understand the problem that he has first hand experience with, but instead got responses trying to discredit his posts just because some people are too thick headed to even consider that synthetics oils have their limit as well and can cause varnish or sludge.

The blind belief that everything synthetic is so superior boarders on lunacy now.

 

[WMSmotorhead]

Good grief... this thread has gone on a few bunny trails...

I hope Adam gets his car fixed, and finds a maintenance schedule that resolves his problems.

The End.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
This is why Trav won't be posting in threads like this anymore. He showed pictures, and data, and yet it is still attacked by people who really don't know what is going on and have no hands on experience with these engines.


And I don't blame him.
He tried to help total strangers to understand the problem that he has first hand experience with, but instead got responses trying to discredit his posts just because some people are too thick headed to even consider that synthetics oils have their limit as well and can cause varnish or sludge.

The blind belief that everything synthetic is so superior boarders on lunacy now.


I can't blame him for not posting here either. He has ZERO to gain by helping anyone on this board, all he got was a red arse.

When you understand how the engine works when in ECO mode it makes a lot of sense why they get sludged up, and why I'd never want a vehicle with that engine in it.

 

[D189379]

I'm glad I found this thread. I was looking at a Pilot to replace my wifes car. Looks like I can safely cross this off of my list. No wonder Hondas reputation is going down the cr@pper.

 

[WMSmotorhead]

Honda and Toyota have inflated opinions on reliability.... This is of course just my opinion.

Sort of like HP's printer reputation...

Current HP printers are below par in comparison to others, but because they "Used to be great"... the notion sticks.

Ford has made great quality improvements over the last 10 years, but there's still a "Ford Stinks" mentality with many folks. I am encouraged that their ad campaign encourages people to try their current lineup and see for yourself... It's a positive campaign that I hope works. I hope they got some good props from the US customers who are thankful they didn't take "Obama Money".

Heck, I got a few GM cars that skunked us so bad that I don't even want to THINK about buying one.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
I just searched for "sludge" on Odyssey Forum on 2005-2010 models. The only reference I got was from somebody who read Trav's adventure with that particular Odyssey. That was the one which was claimed to have Mobil-1 every 7500. As far as I know Trav assured us that even though he did NOT personally did the OCI on that vehicle, he had no reason to doubt the veracity of 7500 Mobil-1 OCI.

The Odyssey forum is littered with blown transmission, I mean every other topic is "my transmission died, please help". As I said before, the only reference to the so called sludge problem was to the topic I mentioned above. He posted it as a poll and to get more data. Surprisingly, none of the participants in that forum came back and said that they found sludge in their engine. NONE.

Compare the pictures posted by the OP (10K OCI on dino) and by Trav (7.5K on Mobil-1). Tell me which one looks worse and then try to explain it rationally. You can't! Logically, if 7500 Mobil-1 caused that much sludge, OP's 10K dino would have solid grease under the oil cap! He does NOT even have CEL or any other engine related symptoms or drive-ability problems apart from the noise. That Odyssey had check engine light active.

I am not disputing that this particular Honda 3.5 VCM could have problems. HOWEVER, I am claiming that this is extremely isolated and not widespread at all. There is likely to be something else going on with that engine which is causing the issue besides the long OCI. Otherwise, the Internet would be littered with this problem like the typical Honda V6 transmission woes.

They all do that is NOT the right answer. The evidence presented so far does not lead to that conclusion.


Trav claimed it wasn't Mobil 1, and stated it was an un-named Group III lubricant. It is getting Mobil 1 going forward.

Why are you claiming it was Mobil 1?

Trav's thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2160571&page=1


Originally Posted By: Trav
How many times have we heard here that "varnish is only a cosmetic stain"? I was even told i had a fetish for believing it can be a nightmare for modern high tech engines.
Seeing as i have a 2005 Honda here with an all to common varnish/sludge issue that basically disables 3 cylinders when the VTEC valve sticks i decided to document it and share it here.


Originally Posted By: Trav
This engine had documented 7500 mi OCI with a major brand of synthetic oil, (i will not disclose the brand as it maybe taken as a bash,it is not.The issue here is with the engine design)The PCV had been serviced.


Originally Posted By: Trav
Yes 5w-20 but after we get it cleaned up Mobil 1 ESP 5w-30 will be used,this oil is recommended for this engine in the rest of the world.


Originally Posted By: Trav
I have done work to a few of these engines in Germany for friends of mine that were using the ESP for 15,000 KM (9K mi) OCI and none showed this kind of build up.


Originally Posted By: Trav
Be aware the one i did looked like just a varnish
issue until i pulled it apart then i found real deposits that nothing in a can could clean.


Originally Posted By: Trav
f i told you what i have tried and used in these Honda engines and what seemed to work best so far it would start a thin/thick oil war.



Mobil 1 0W-40

 

[mechanicx]

I wished whoever it was didn't dis Trav and he left. But on the other hand I think, and I'm not saying anyone said it just my impression, that a group III oil with low miles was sludging due to heat in these engines might be debatable. I wouldn't say a synthetic won't sludge, but due to high heat I'm not so sure. I don't think using Mobil 1, some other Group III or conventional is really the issue.

But as far as this the OP problem is, the sludged valve solenoids that Trav talked about are the most likely culprit. Honda issued a TSB to reprogram the VCM. I wonder if that had ever been done to OP's vehicle? That might be the cause of the sludge and the cam solenoids are just sensitive to it.

 

[Fyrb4ll]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'm on your side. I sold Honda vehicles and came to the conclusion they aren't what they're cracked up to be.

As far as the tech changing your oil seeing anything unusual, I doubt it. Most don't care, and the few that do are a rare find. The truth is had you caught the problem early with no drive-ability symptoms they'd probably have told you it was normal, and sent you on your way.


ESPECIALLY if it still under warranty.