What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
General belief is that short drives are bad on the oil as the engine never gets hot enough to burn off the moisture and that is what leads to the sludge.

I think we need to agree if sludge is formed when the engine never reaches operating temperature or it is formed when the engine oil temperature exceeds certain value. I hope answer is one or the other rather than "both"!

Does OLM also monitors the level of the oil? I mean does it have a sensor to know if the oil needs to be added? If not, do people who rely on OLM still check their oil manually weekly/monthly?

I am no Honda fanboy. They have yet to fix the V6 auto transmission. They had years and years to come up with more robust design but so far regardless of the year, they seemed to blowing up in alarming numbers once they go through X number of shifts. Very very few instances of engine blowup have been reported as compared to the transmission blow up.

A bad engine design would show lot more failures than what have been observed so far.

I have a feeling that OP will NOT be getting the photos from the dealer. I would be very glad to be proven wrong. If I were in OP's shoes, I will be there personally in the shop taking the pictures and asking him to show me the worn out camshaft.

- Vikas


I'm taking pictures at the dealers today at 1:30PM and will post ASAP.

 

[Vikas]

Frank, you were right; both short distance and hot temperature can lead to sludge. I found a good write up in Car & Driver. I to apologize for doubting you.

Even putting lots of barbeque sauce on that crow, it still tastes bad

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Frank, you were right; both short distance and hot temperature can lead to sludge. I found a good write up in Car & Driver. I to apologize for doubting you.

Even putting lots of barbeque sauce on that crow, it still tastes bad

No problem

 

[gogozy]

best wish to OP. I would keep pressure on Honda and ask them to make it right. I would speak to Honda rep and told them this is not what to expect from Honda with only 90,000 miles, service records and relationship with dealership is a plus for asking Honda to issue good well repair, sometimes they would split the cost. Honda make good car generally, but, they have their shorts, if you chekc out temple of VTEC, you will see folks there does not like J35 VCM, and for a different reason.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

IT'S DEFINITIVE! Today the dealer, at no charge, pulled the cam covers and put a borescope into the valve train to inspect the front cam. Upon finding excessive wear I asked him to remove the rocker arm assembly so I could take the pictures in the link below.

What we found was that the front head was running excessively hot (TRAV WAS RIGHT!), most likely due to the Variable Cylinder Management running in ECO mode for all the highway miles I drive each year. The Maintenance Minder was letting the conventional oil cook more then twice the miles the oil manufacturer recommends and the resulting varnish and poor lubrication caused the cam to wear down and pit. Please have a look:

I asked the dealer to change the internal filter screens but we discovered that Honda stopped installing the filter screens in the VCM actuator and oil filter assembly gasket! This clue, along with the fact that they changed to a synthetic blend oil for the 2011 model year tells me that Honda is aware of the factors that caused my engine troubles. The TSB on the VCM reprogramming does not apply to my model.

So next week the dealer is installing a new front cam and PCV valve. Judging by the astounding difference between the front and rear valve train conditions, I'm expecting the rear cam to be good, but we are going to pull the rocker assembly anyhow to have a good look and be sure. Because the vehicle runs well otherwise, I'm assuming the cylinder heads and lower end are undamaged.

Next I'll consider a couple of charges of Kreen to address the varnish and sludge, then switch to Mobil 1 Extended Performance synthetic oil with changes ever 5000 miles. Hopefully my engine will run happily for quite some time.

I'll report back next week after the new cam is installed. I'm still pushing this with Honda so perhaps we'll have some good news there as well. Thanks very much for all the intelligent comments and great advice, everyone!

 

[Bill in Utah]

For those who have concerns or issues with links;

 

[Bill in Utah]

You could just run any 5w-20 oil and change it every 5k with the same results.

If you are going to run EP and Mobil states its good for 15k then I'd run it that long.

Personally I'd go with any API SM/SN 5w-20 every 5k and change BOTH the filter and oil more often.

Bill

 

[demarpaint]

Looks like Trav knows what he's talking about, he called it. It's shame he was driven out of this thread. It also looks like Honda has a lousy design here, and the OLM or oil recommendations need to be rethought. Design improvements wouldn't hurt either. JMO

 

[mechanicx]

The TSB says it applies to all '09-'10 Honda Pilots and really all '08-10 3.5 VCMs and some VINs of '11. Maybe it has been updated at some point previously.

Anyway, it's great you posted pics but it's too bad they weren't higher resolution digital camera pics to really see details. There appears to be some sludge but not a lot and I can't really see the condition of the cam lobes. Without better images and a mic measurments of the cam, we'll just have to go by what you saw in person and the dealer reported. I'd suspect the right or back cylinder head looks the same. Was that cam cover taken off yet?

Do you think there is any possibility that the oil/filter wasn't always changed when you took it in for an oil change? It's been known to happen.

 

[stephen9666]

To the OP-

Can you post any higher res pictures instead of the small ones?

It's difficult to see what you're talking about.

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Of course I would be delighted to post pictures with bettter reolution when I get home this weekend. I so appreciatie of all your interest. In the mean time I can tell you that the top middle picture shows the badly pitted cam and the lower right picture shows the roller that was banging against it. It looks like the yoke of the roller was hitting the cam lobe. Regarding the rear valve train, that pic is included (middle row, center pic) but it is hardly recognizable compared to the front because it is in such good condition comparatively speaking. And yes I do have high confidence that both the oil and filter were changed as I check it after every service to be sure. I believe this level of pollution could have only occured over the entire lifetime of the engine.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
IT'S DEFINITIVE! Today the dealer, at no charge, pulled the cam covers and put a borescope into the valve train to inspect the front cam. Upon finding excessive wear I asked him to remove the rocker arm assembly so I could take the pictures in the link below.

What we found was that the front head was running excessively hot (TRAV WAS RIGHT!), most likely due to the Variable Cylinder Management running in ECO mode for all the highway miles I drive each year. The Maintenance Minder was letting the conventional oil cook more then twice the miles the oil manufacturer recommends and the resulting varnish and poor lubrication caused the cam to wear down and pit. Please have a look:

I asked the dealer to change the internal filter screens but we discovered that Honda stopped installing the filter screens in the VCM actuator and oil filter assembly gasket! This clue, along with the fact that they changed to a synthetic blend oil for the 2011 model year tells me that Honda is aware of the factors that caused my engine troubles. The TSB on the VCM reprogramming does not apply to my model.

So next week the dealer is installing a new front cam and PCV valve. Judging by the astounding difference between the front and rear valve train conditions, I'm expecting the rear cam to be good, but we are going to pull the rocker assembly anyhow to have a good look and be sure. Because the vehicle runs well otherwise, I'm assuming the cylinder heads and lower end are undamaged.

Next I'll consider a couple of charges of Kreen to address the varnish and sludge, then switch to Mobil 1 Extended Performance synthetic oil with changes ever 5000 miles. Hopefully my engine will run happily for quite some time.

I'll report back next week after the new cam is installed. I'm still pushing this with Honda so perhaps we'll have some good news there as well. Thanks very much for all the intelligent comments and great advice, everyone!


You are know that Honda 5W20 synthetic blend is like Motorcraft and Trop Artic oils. I look at Phillips Semi-syn as good as other name brand conventional from SOPUS, XOM, Castrol, and Valvoline. But not better. If you want something special with the Honda name on the label get the 0W20 synthetic.

 

[ltslimjim]

IIRC, in Trav's experience/app the van was the typical 'soccer mom' use. Driven short distances and rarely, if ever by comparison, driven beyond 5-10 miles ever? So, cutting down to 3,000 may even have been at a MAX.

In the OP's app, what can go wrong with failing cams? Damaged valves, pulling the head and doing some work there? Any chance of damaged cylinder heads? Can't just pull the current cams and install new ones?

ADDED:

Personally, it may be worth a pan drop for manual cleaning. Just my opinion...However, if you go the kreen route. Be PREPARED to change the filter often. Early on do a 500 mile filter change in on the first kreen dosing, then move up to no more than 1,000 twice. After that consider a 2nd kreen treatment or move on to something along the lines of an ester oil(IMO) or a High Mileage oil which can hopefully deal with any extra floating gunk. Perform a couple 2,000-3,000(max) oil changes and consider cutting open the filters throughout the process to monitor.

IMO, I'd avoid conventional in this engine in the future. However, one might consider spiking a conventional if going that route with additives such a lubegard since it claims to help lower temps and is a reputable additive like the kreen(albeit for cleansing in its regard).

HOWEVER!

There may be a need to break-in the new cam before resorting to using kreen. I think that's worth more discussion.

 

[Hounds]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
. . . In the OP's app, what can go wrong with failing cams? Damaged valves, pulling the head and doing some work there? Any chance of damaged cylinder heads? Can't just pull the current cams and install new ones? . . .

What can go wrong with failing cams? If history is a guide, not much.

What the OP has experienced with his V-6 -- i.e., galling on one or more camshaft lobes -- is a not too unusual occurence in older, high-mileage k-series (4-cyl.) Honda engines. Typically, the cars owners only learn of the problem when they have their cars serviced and the valves adjusted at 90k-105k miles, and they are shown the damage. (You can read about this on any of the Honda boards or simply Google "Honda camshaft galling".) This invariably leads to a discussion -- and just as frequently a heated argument -- as to the cause: Is it the result of inadequate maintenance, 20-weight vs. 30-weight oil, the type of oil, high rpm, metallurgical, etc. Again, it's not a common occurence, but it's not rare either.

The fix is simple enough: replace the damaged camshaft(s). Because the problem typically occurs over a long period, there's really no urgency in affecting a repair. You don't need to pull the head; simply swap out the worn camshaft(s). Because a lot of the "victims" are young and eager to save money, they often cut costs by buying used parts. For those who are familiar with Honda 4-cylinder engines, it's become fairly routine.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim


ADDED:

Personally, it may be worth a pan drop for manual cleaning. Just my opinion...However, if you go the kreen route. Be PREPARED to change the filter often. Early on do a 500 mile filter change in on the first kreen dosing, then move up to no more than 1,000 twice. After that consider a 2nd kreen treatment or move on to something along the lines of an ester oil(IMO) or a High Mileage oil which can hopefully deal with any extra floating gunk. Perform a couple 2,000-3,000(max) oil changes and consider cutting open the filters throughout the process to monitor.

IMO, I'd avoid conventional in this engine in the future. However, one might consider spiking a conventional if going that route with additives such a lubegard since it claims to help lower temps and is a reputable additive like the kreen(albeit for cleansing in its regard).

HOWEVER!

There may be a need to break-in the new cam before resorting to using kreen. I think that's worth more discussion.


If the OP decides to do a pan drop and hand clean followed by Kreen, if it were my vehicle I'd do the Kreen cleaning with the old Cam in the engine. Once clean I'd swap the Cam. More work yes, but IMO a better job. Flame away.

 

[demarpaint]

To late to edit. If you pay a shop to do it, my way is not cost effective, I'm referring to DIY, sorry.

 

[LineArrayNut]

soo... I'm glad OP is getting to the bottom of this debacle. is anyone not seeing the results as: too thin... too long... too cheap (not synthetic)... ?

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
To late to edit. If you pay a shop to do it, my way is not cost effective, I'm referring to DIY, sorry.

You are right, and if I didn't have the deler open the engine up I would likely have gone the Kreen route first. I even ordered some Kreen before bringing the vehicle beck to the dealer for a second look. But now thst it is dissasembeled in his service bay and the cam is due in on Monday I'll just have him do the swap and try and get everythng clean and flowing well before it happens again. No vehicle til next Tuesday so I believe I'll work on my bicycle today!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
To late to edit. If you pay a shop to do it, my way is not cost effective, I'm referring to DIY, sorry.

You are right, and if I didn't have the deler open the engine up I would likely have gone the Kreen route first. I even ordered some Kreen before bringing the vehicle beck to the dealer for a second look. But now thst it is dissasembeled in his service bay and the cam is due in on Monday I'll just have him do the swap and try and get everythng clean and flowing well before it happens again. No vehicle til next Tuesday so I believe I'll work on my bicycle today!


Once they get it done you'll be fine. I'd hit Trav up and let him tell you what oil and interval his brother is using for his vehicle.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
To late to edit. If you pay a shop to do it, my way is not cost effective, I'm referring to DIY, sorry.

You are right, and if I didn't have the deler open the engine up I would likely have gone the Kreen route first. I even ordered some Kreen before bringing the vehicle beck to the dealer for a second look. But now thst it is dissasembeled in his service bay and the cam is due in on Monday I'll just have him do the swap and try and get everythng clean and flowing well before it happens again. No vehicle til next Tuesday so I believe I'll work on my bicycle today!


Once they get it done you'll be fine. I'd hit Trav up and let him tell you what oil and interval his brother is using for his vehicle.


He's using M1 EP at 5K IIRC.