What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Fyrb4ll
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'm on your side. I sold Honda vehicles and came to the conclusion they aren't what they're cracked up to be.

As far as the tech changing your oil seeing anything unusual, I doubt it. Most don't care, and the few that do are a rare find. The truth is had you caught the problem early with no drive-ability symptoms they'd probably have told you it was normal, and sent you on your way.




ESPECIALLY if it still under warranty.


Yep, because the car maker pays the dealership diddly on Warranty repairs. As a result many times they avoid big jobs like this that aren't cut and dry because they can become a big loser for the service dept, so why bother?

 

[Vikas]

If this were a design problem, there would be lot more of these incidents. That is just plain statistics and logic.

OK, I was wrong about Mobil-1. We do not know which synthetic was used. Can somebody show me a sentence where Trav says he himself did the oil changes on that Odyssey? I do not believe so because I remember pushing him for that information.

Honda V6 drive train has bunch of known problems and plethora of evidence to support that assertion. Sludging on 7500 synthetic OCI is NOT one that problem.

I went to OP's other posting in the other forum. One guy had his engine blew up at 35K, I mean really a catastrophic failure. The oil light came on and the next thing he heard was lots of crunching noises. There are NO other instances on that forum about this engine sludging.

I am not disparaging what Trav found and fixed. I am saying if that were common for that particular engine, there would be lot more noise about it. I mean every 4th vehicle I pass on my way to work is a Honda Odyssey. They spawn like rabbits! Even if 10% of them had the VCM engines, there would be lot more engine failures but all I see is the transmission failures which routinely happen around 100+K on this van.

Is it being claimed that this particular type of engine yet does not have enough miles accumulated to cause the wide spread problem? If that is the case, then I would be proven wrong and I would have to eat the humble pie.

 

[Vikas]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
When you understand how the engine works when in ECO mode it makes a lot of sense why they get sludged up, and why I'd never want a vehicle with that engine in it.


I am not buying this *yet*.

Vehicles equipped with VCM

2003 Honda Inspire
2005-2007 Honda Accord Hybrid (JNA1)
2005+ Honda Odyssey(USDM) EX-L and Touring Models only (J35)
2006+ Honda Civic Hybrid
2006+ Honda Pilot 2WD Models only (J35)
2008 Honda Accord except EX-L V6 6MT Coupe
2009+ Honda Pilot (all models)
2010 Honda Accord V6 (except EX-L V6 6MT Coupe)
2011 Honda Odyssey (USDM) V6 (all models)

There should be enough of them out in the real world now to know if there is a fundamental design problem or not. Most of those 2005 era vehicles these days have at least 100K if not more on them.

Once again I am not disputing what Trav found and fixed. I am doubting the root cause *and* the spread of this particular problem.

Heads getting hot enough to burn off the synthetic oil? NO, I am not buying that even if highly respect members such as yourself or Trav were claiming it. I understand those are fighting words but we are having a spirited discussion among friends here. No disrespect is intended towards Frank or Paul. So let us not lose sight of that.

Think it for a minute. Why do people say short trips are bad for engine or engine oil? Does ECO mode make engine run hotter or cooler?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
If this were a design problem, there would be lot more of these incidents. That is just plain statistics and logic.

OK, I was wrong about Mobil-1. We do not know which synthetic was used. Can somebody show me a sentence where Trav says he himself did the oil changes on that Odyssey? I do not believe so because I remember pushing him for that information.

Honda V6 drive train has bunch of known problems and plethora of evidence to support that assertion. Sludging on 7500 synthetic OCI is NOT one that problem.

I went to OP's other posting in the other forum. One guy had his engine blew up at 35K, I mean really a catastrophic failure. The oil light came on and the next thing he heard was lots of crunching noises. There are NO other instances on that forum about this engine sludging.

I am not disparaging what Trav found and fixed. I am saying if that were common for that particular engine, there would be lot more noise about it. I mean every 4th vehicle I pass on my way to work is a Honda Odyssey. They spawn like rabbits! Even if 10% of them had the VCM engines, there would be lot more engine failures but all I see is the transmission failures which routinely happen around 100+K on this van.

Is it being claimed that this particular type of engine yet does not have enough miles accumulated to cause the wide spread problem? If that is the case, then I would be proven wrong and I would have to eat the humble pie.


He didn't do the changes as per the following from that thread:

Originally Posted By: Trav
This is not a Honda or oil bashing thread strictly photo documentation of an issue with a particular engine driven under particular conditions that i can personal attest to the service intervals from day 1.
I did not service on the van the owner did and he is very maintenance minded and has a stash that would make any BITOG member proud.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Your engine is shot, but think of all the oil you saved!! Those 3000 mile OCI's are a waste of good oil.

Why not just change oil every 500 miles, like the OCI of the car you learned to drive on: the Model T?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Vikas
If this were a design problem, there would be lot more of these incidents. That is just plain statistics and logic.

OK, I was wrong about Mobil-1. We do not know which synthetic was used. Can somebody show me a sentence where Trav says he himself did the oil changes on that Odyssey? I do not believe so because I remember pushing him for that information.

Honda V6 drive train has bunch of known problems and plethora of evidence to support that assertion. Sludging on 7500 synthetic OCI is NOT one that problem.

I went to OP's other posting in the other forum. One guy had his engine blew up at 35K, I mean really a catastrophic failure. The oil light came on and the next thing he heard was lots of crunching noises. There are NO other instances on that forum about this engine sludging.

I am not disparaging what Trav found and fixed. I am saying if that were common for that particular engine, there would be lot more noise about it. I mean every 4th vehicle I pass on my way to work is a Honda Odyssey. They spawn like rabbits! Even if 10% of them had the VCM engines, there would be lot more engine failures but all I see is the transmission failures which routinely happen around 100+K on this van.

Is it being claimed that this particular type of engine yet does not have enough miles accumulated to cause the wide spread problem? If that is the case, then I would be proven wrong and I would have to eat the humble pie.


He didn't do the changes as per the following from that thread:

Originally Posted By: Trav
This is not a Honda or oil bashing thread strictly photo documentation of an issue with a particular engine driven under particular conditions that i can personal attest to the service intervals from day 1.
I did not service on the van the owner did and he is very maintenance minded and has a stash that would make any BITOG member proud.




One of the vehicles he did the repair work to was his brother's, he also did a few oil changes on it.


Vikas if I understand the function of this engine correctly it cuts one half of the engine off eg: the left side of the engine, and never the right side of the engine. So that means in ECO mode it is running on 3 cylinders from one side of the engine. That tells me the design stinks, the engine is going to get very hot on that side, form more carbon than the other side, and the engine won't ever wear evenly. Now take that lousy screen they have, and slowly plug it up with junk reducing oil flow to that side of the engine, and the sludge making formula gets even better.

Sorry Honda lovers they messed this design up big time! Respectfully submitted.

 

[LeakySeals]

Being a heavy beast with poor aerodynamics, this version of Variable Cylinder Management (VCM) may not spend that much time in 3cyl eco mode because there are 3, 4, and 6 cyl settings.

 

[K20FA5]

The engine in ours also runs in a four cylinder mode, shutting off one cylinder on each side. It switches between 6, 4, and 3. You can't tell the difference between 4 and 3 though.

I remember reading this was a new feature on the 09+ Pilots. The previous only had a 6 and 3 cylinder modes.

Ours is doing good on a diet of Penn Ultra 5w-20 and 5k OCIs.

 

[mechanicx]

While sludge hasn't been widely reported in VCM 3.5's, high oil consumption has. The VCM can be to blame because it can switch on and off too frequently under certain driving conditions. This causes a low pressure in some cylinders and leads to oil burning. Honda released a TSB to reprogram the VCM (I wonder if the the update every got done on his vehicle?). Oil consumption can lead to varnish and sludge, although the OP didn't report there was any high oil consumption.

I don't buy what his dealer told him or believe they adjusted the valves. I don't know if his oil was always actually getting changed when he took it for service. Too many unknowns here.

 

[Pablo]

I agree that a ton of these vehicles engines look pretty filthy inside, not a lot of them have been reported as sludged, nor have they failed. Combine that with an over optimistic OLM and conventional oil, and problems will pop up like whack-a-moles.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
I agree that a ton of these vehicles engines look pretty filthy inside, not a lot of them have been reported as sludged, nor have they failed. Combine that with an over optimistic OLM and conventional oil, and problems will pop up like whack-a-moles.


I use a OCI that is very comparable on a engine with the same oil sump capacity with "conventional" 5W20. But the Fuel economy is about 50% better than EPA numbers compared to this vehicle. With the amount of gas that this engine consumes along with a 4.5 quart capacity it seems something is not right with the OCI recommendations IMHO.

 

[Vikas]

General belief is that short drives are bad on the oil as the engine never gets hot enough to burn off the moisture and that is what leads to the sludge.

I think we need to agree if sludge is formed when the engine never reaches operating temperature or it is formed when the engine oil temperature exceeds certain value. I hope answer is one or the other rather than "both"!

Does OLM also monitors the level of the oil? I mean does it have a sensor to know if the oil needs to be added? If not, do people who rely on OLM still check their oil manually weekly/monthly?

I am no Honda fanboy. They have yet to fix the V6 auto transmission. They had years and years to come up with more robust design but so far regardless of the year, they seemed to blowing up in alarming numbers once they go through X number of shifts. Very very few instances of engine blowup have been reported as compared to the transmission blow up.

A bad engine design would show lot more failures than what have been observed so far.

I have a feeling that OP will NOT be getting the photos from the dealer. I would be very glad to be proven wrong. If I were in OP's shoes, I will be there personally in the shop taking the pictures and asking him to show me the worn out camshaft.

- Vikas

 

[uart]

Originally Posted By: Vikas

I have a feeling that OP will NOT be getting the photos from the dealer. I would be very glad to be proven wrong. If I were in OP's shoes, I will be there personally in the shop taking the pictures and asking him to show me the worn out camshaft.


Yeah, I've doubted all along that the cams are really worn out. The scenario Trav posted previously seems more likely.

Originally Posted By: Trav
The iVTEC system is very complex it uses primary and secondary rocker arms. This system uses a separate oiling system to activate it.
Something sticking in this system can and will cause ticking, of course it could be a bad cam but when they get varnished up its a fair bet that this is a very real possibility as the source of the noise.

The solenoid and activation unit are on the rear of the head, remove it and replace the screen at least. If this screen is plugged slightly you can change oil till your blue in the face and not get oil to flow to the unit properly.


They (dealer) probably realized that the tick couldn't be easily fixed without stripping it down and giving it a serious clean-up, so it was easier to just give a quote on new heads.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Vikas


I think we need to agree if sludge is formed when the engine never reaches operating temperature or it is formed when the engine oil temperature exceeds certain value. I hope answer is one or the other rather than "both"!



The answer is both, in your example. Never reaching operating temps, or exceeding operating temps both can cause sludge as well as other issues.

 

[Hokiefyd]

The answer to this problem is very simple to those of us who have a little knowledge about it. Change the oil every 5,000 miles with a quality synthetic and you'll never have an issue. A friend of mine has a 2010 Odyssey LX (with VCM) with 40,000 miles on it and his engine is spotless, at least through the oil fill hole. He's using Mobil 1 5W-20 in it every 5,000 miles. Cheap, easy, and the issue never rears its head.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: uart
Originally Posted By: Vikas

I have a feeling that OP will NOT be getting the photos from the dealer. I would be very glad to be proven wrong. If I were in OP's shoes, I will be there personally in the shop taking the pictures and asking him to show me the worn out camshaft.


Yeah, I've doubted all along that the cams are really worn out. The scenario Trav posted previously seems more likely.

Originally Posted By: Trav
The iVTEC system is very complex it uses primary and secondary rocker arms. This system uses a separate oiling system to activate it.
Something sticking in this system can and will cause ticking, of course it could be a bad cam but when they get varnished up its a fair bet that this is a very real possibility as the source of the noise.

The solenoid and activation unit are on the rear of the head, remove it and replace the screen at least. If this screen is plugged slightly you can change oil till your blue in the face and not get oil to flow to the unit properly.


They (dealer) probably realized that the tick couldn't be easily fixed without stripping it down and giving it a serious clean-up, so it was easier to just give a quote on new heads.

Yeah, I think the sludge is partially blocking the oil passages of the i-vtec system causing the cam actuation to be a little off. So it ticks. I've been parroting sludge removal and problems go away from the beginning. Deaf ears so I gave up.

I think its plain and simple not changing the oil enough. Blaming the OLM is an interesting twist to a problem I've been dealing with at the shop for years. People come in with a sludger. I ask them 3 times did you change the oil on time. Its always of course I did. Only one person ever admitted they didn't.

If oil changes are last on your to-do list, expect sludge.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
The answer to this problem is very simple to those of us who have a little knowledge about it. Change the oil every 5,000 miles with a quality synthetic and you'll never have an issue. A friend of mine has a 2010 Odyssey LX (with VCM) with 40,000 miles on it and his engine is spotless, at least through the oil fill hole. He's using Mobil 1 5W-20 in it every 5,000 miles. Cheap, easy, and the issue never rears its head.


Good advise in this application. Ignore the OLM and change the oil every 5K with a good synthetic, soccer Moms might want to cut that to 4K miles. Over the life of the vehicle that will be a lot cheaper than tearing the engine down, and cleaning it/and or tossing parts at it.

 

[Vikas]

Quote:
The answer is both, in your example. Never reaching operating temps, or exceeding operating temps both can cause sludge as well as other issues.

Any authoritative source to confirm this?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Quote:
The answer is both, in your example. Never reaching operating temps, or exceeding operating temps both can cause sludge as well as other issues.

Any authoritative source to confirm this?


Common sense and a lot of reading. You've been here long enough to know why are you even asking?

 

[Adam_in_NH]

Originally Posted By: D189379
I'm glad I found this thread. I was looking at a Pilot to replace my wifes car. Looks like I can safely cross this off of my list. No wonder Hondas reputation is going down the cr@pper.


I gave it allot of thought before buying my Honda Pilot, and I really like it, except for the current ticking problem and poor response from Honda. I bet that all the major manufacturers have some type of extended planned obsolescence so they don't have all their older cars running around fine with 300,000 miles on them. I believe mine had several of these factors working at once to give me these problems starting at 80,000 miles.