VW Oil Help, Again

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
So am I dumping my M1 0w40 and put in a 504 approved oil with hopes that the 504 oil will help with the intake valve deposits?

If you're concerned about deposits, I suspect that's the way to go. Run one or more UOAs down the road to see how far you can safely go.

A certain esteemed member stated here some time ago that longer OCIs, as directed by the OEM, might be helpful in keeping the intake valve deposits to a minimum. Of course, non-European gasoline throws another variable into the mix, hence my suggestion for UOAs.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
So if 504 is better choice for DI engines like the TSI then why are the dealers not using it? You would think VW would want to use an oil that would keep their cars on the road the longest and good reliability.

Also doesn't ethanol actually clean things? Why would it cause crud to build up on valves? That confuses me.

I will look into the 504 oil. Is it available in a 40w? Just in case it shears real bad in the TSI?

Jeff


We already talked about this. Sulfur content in the U.S. gas and Ethanol content.

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
So if 504 is better choice for DI engines like the TSI then why are the dealers not using it? You would think VW would want to use an oil that would keep their cars on the road the longest and good reliability.

Also doesn't ethanol actually clean things? Why would it cause crud to build up on valves? That confuses me.

I will look into the 504 oil. Is it available in a 40w? Just in case it shears real bad in the TSI?

Jeff


Jeff - I am not trying to pick on you here, but please do some searches and read up on these issues. You seem very confused by all of this.

Ethanol doesn't cause intake valve buildup, it can cause combustion byproducts that deplete the oil's additives more quickly. As far as "cleaning" goes, the whole problem with direct injection engines is that there is no fuel spray hitting the intake valves to clean them, so it doesn't matter what's in the fuel - none of it's hitting the valves.

All 504/507 oils are 5W-30, with an HT/HS over 3.5. From a shear standpoint, these oils are run throughout Europe in cars that see much higher speeds and harder service than anything on public roads in the U.S.

As far as why dealers do or do not do something - there are lots of factors there. What we do know is that VW is now apparently putting 504 in 2013+ manuals as an acceptable oil, so whoever it is that makes those decisions apparently does not think the ethanol/sulfur issue in U.S. fuel is a big issue at this point.

 

[badtlc]

The lack of 504 spec in the US until now could be as simple as lack of availability.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
So if 504 is better choice for DI engines like the TSI then why are the dealers not using it? You would think VW would want to use an oil that would keep their cars on the road the longest and good reliability.

Also doesn't ethanol actually clean things? Why would it cause crud to build up on valves? That confuses me.

I will look into the 504 oil. Is it available in a 40w? Just in case it shears real bad in the TSI?

Jeff


Jeff - I am not trying to pick on you here, but please do some searches and read up on these issues. You seem very confused by all of this.

Ethanol doesn't cause intake valve buildup, it can cause combustion byproducts that deplete the oil's additives more quickly. As far as "cleaning" goes, the whole problem with direct injection engines is that there is no fuel spray hitting the intake valves to clean them, so it doesn't matter what's in the fuel - none of it's hitting the valves.

All 504/507 oils are 5W-30, with an HT/HS over 3.5. From a shear standpoint, these oils are run throughout Europe in cars that see much higher speeds and harder service than anything on public roads in the U.S.

As far as why dealers do or do not do something - there are lots of factors there. What we do know is that VW is now apparently putting 504 in 2013+ manuals as an acceptable oil, so whoever it is that makes those decisions apparently does not think the ethanol/sulfur issue in U.S. fuel is a big issue at this point.


I know your not picking on me andi do understand certain things. I am new to DI. My Evo's of past I could tear down a 4G63 and put it back together blind folded. This DI stuff and carbon issues and needing specific this or that oil is new for me. I raced Evo's amaturely for 10 yrs and things were simple. This car and this intake valve issue just puzzles me. it just should not be happening on cars in this day and age. That's what I don't understand.

I did run a 30w oil in my evos redline 5w30 for years and didn't have any issues but this TSI engine redline may not bea good choice. The 4G63 didn't shear oil like this engine does. That is why I'm reluctant to use a 30w in this engine. It's a catch 22 though use the 30w 504 oil and have possible cleaner valves or run a 40w 502 have a higher hths but dirty valves.

This is just crazy stuff. Oil was so simple for me before. Maybe I'm over analyzing. I just want what's best for the car.

Jeff

 

[Finklejag]

You have a few choices for a 504 spec oil.

Castrol SLX LL-03 5W-30 (dealer)
Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30
Pennzoil Euro 5W-30
Then you have all the Euro 504 spec boutique oils.

I remember back when I bought my 2000 Golf 1.8T. Trying to find a 502 spec oil was really hard also. You had the Castrol 5W-40 from the dealer. Some Napa's carried Valvoline Synpower 5W-40. Even trying to find Mobil 1 0W-40 was hard. You had the Porsche dealer, or a Mobil distributor.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

I do allot of searching but have found nothing concrete just opinions. Maybe oncei find some "proof" I will not sound so repetitious.

I just have not found anything concrete yet.

Jeff

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: Finklejag
You have a few choices for a 504 spec oil.

Castrol SLX LL-03 5W-30 (dealer)
Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30
Pennzoil Euro 5W-30
Then you have all the Euro 504 spec boutique oils.

I remember back when I bought my 2000 Golf 1.8T. Trying to find a 502 spec oil was really hard also. You had the Castrol 5W-40 from the dealer. Some Napa's carried Valvoline Synpower 5W-40. Even trying to find Mobil 1 0W-40 was hard. You had the Porsche dealer, or a Mobil distributor.


What oil are you running in your GTI? And for how long? Have you scoped your intake valves yet? To check on build up?

Jeff

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I do allot of searching but have found nothing concrete just opinions. Maybe oncei find some "proof" I will not sound so repetitious.

I just have not found anything concrete yet.

Jeff


What is it you're looking for "proof" of?

The Lubrizol paper I linked is proof that using a 504 oil will significantly reduce intake deposits on a DI engine.

Your 2013 GTI owner's manual is proof that VW now "officially" permits use of 504 oils in gasoline engines in North America.

Pretty much everything else in this realm is educated guesswork. Ethanol and sulfur in U.S. gasoline, lower starting TBN in 504 oils, what OCI to use ... educated guesswork in terms of what all of that ultimately means. I did a UOA on a 504 oil run in a VAG 2.0TFSI for 5K miles, including TBN and TAN, and it performed more than acceptably if we're talking about remaining acid neutralization capacity in the oil, which is the main concern that has been raised.

 

[Finklejag]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Originally Posted By: Finklejag
You have a few choices for a 504 spec oil.

Castrol SLX LL-03 5W-30 (dealer)
Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30
Pennzoil Euro 5W-30
Then you have all the Euro 504 spec boutique oils.

I remember back when I bought my 2000 Golf 1.8T. Trying to find a 502 spec oil was really hard also. You had the Castrol 5W-40 from the dealer. Some Napa's carried Valvoline Synpower 5W-40. Even trying to find Mobil 1 0W-40 was hard. You had the Porsche dealer, or a Mobil distributor.


What oil are you running in your GTI? And for how long? Have you scoped your intake valves yet? To check on build up?

Jeff


I been running a 502 oil since new. I've been doing 5K OCI's. I had my intake manifold replaced under warranty at 28,000 miles. The Tech said the intake valves didn't look that bad. If I keep the car, then I will pay to have the valves cleaned. I will most likely have a new car by the time they need cleaning.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I do allot of searching but have found nothing concrete just opinions. Maybe oncei find some "proof" I will not sound so repetitious.

I just have not found anything concrete yet.

Jeff


What is it you're looking for "proof" of?

The Lubrizol paper I linked is proof that using a 504 oil will significantly reduce intake deposits on a DI engine.

Your 2013 GTI owner's manual is proof that VW now "officially" permits use of 504 oils in gasoline engines in North America.

Pretty much everything else in this realm is educated guesswork. Ethanol and sulfur in U.S. gasoline, lower starting TBN in 504 oils, what OCI to use ... educated guesswork in terms of what all of that ultimately means. I did a UOA on a 504 oil run in a VAG 2.0TFSI for 5K miles, including TBN and TAN, and it performed more than acceptably if we're talking about remaining acid neutralization capacity in the oil, which is the main concern that has been raised.


I guess the "proof" I am looking for is what exactly is the cause of the Deposits. Is it the fuel used? by products of combustion, the oil used, all of this? There is always a "cause" and an "affect" we all are making a logical guess. What we discuss makes sense, and I will try switching to a 504 oil next oil change. Most likely M1 ESP 5w30 since I can buy it pretty much anywhere. I just dont want to find out a year later that now all of a sudden LOW SAPS are causing build up of something else, haha. Its just nutty like that. At this point is when I take the deck of cards and throw them in the air and say F* It. haha.

Jeff

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

On Mobil 1's web page they have this about the ESP 5w30:

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 has the following builder approvals:
BMW Longlife 04
MB-Approval 229.31/229.51
Volkswagen (Gasoline / Diesel) 504 00 / 507 00
Porsche C30
Chrysler MS-11106
Peugeot/Citroën Automobiles B71 2290
B71 2297
AVTOVAZ LADA cars


Then its states this on the same page:

According to ExxonMobil, Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 is of the following quality level:
API CF
Volkswagen (Gasoline) 502 00 / 503 00 / 503 01
Volkswagen (Diesel) 505 00 / 505 01 / 506 00 / 506 01
All VW engines with the exception of Unit-Injector / Pump-Duse TDI without LongLife Service and without DPF between 1999-2003 and R5/V10-TDi before model year 2006

So I am confused, is it 504 approved or Not?? It states 504 up top, then states of this quality and says 502/503??

Jeff

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
On Mobil 1's web page they have this about the ESP 5w30:

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 has the following builder approvals:
BMW Longlife 04
MB-Approval 229.31/229.51
Volkswagen (Gasoline / Diesel) 504 00 / 507 00
Porsche C30
Chrysler MS-11106
Peugeot/Citroën Automobiles B71 2290
B71 2297
AVTOVAZ LADA cars


Then its states this on the same page:

According to ExxonMobil, Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 is of the following quality level:
API CF
Volkswagen (Gasoline) 502 00 / 503 00 / 503 01
Volkswagen (Diesel) 505 00 / 505 01 / 506 00 / 506 01
All VW engines with the exception of Unit-Injector / Pump-Duse TDI without LongLife Service and without DPF between 1999-2003 and R5/V10-TDi before model year 2006

So I am confused, is it 504 approved or Not?? It states 504 up top, then states of this quality and says 502/503??

Jeff


Yes, it's APPROVED by VW/Audi for 504.00 and 507.00.

It also meets the specifications for 502.00 (and all those others listed lower) but has not been officially "approved" by the manufacturer for those particular standards. Basically, ExxonMobil is saying "this oil meets the requirements on paper for all of these specs and we're pretty darn sure it would pass them all if submitted for 'official' manufacturer testing and approval, but we're not going to bother because we're not marketing it for those applications."

Also, if you actually compare 502 and 504, you will see that 504 is a "superset" of 502 and meets or (in many categories) exceeds 502 in all performance categories. There's a tool on the Lubrizol website that will show this to you.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Thank you very much for all the info. I will give M1 ESP 5w30 a try next oil change.

Jeff

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I know your not picking on me andi do understand certain things. I am new to DI. My Evo's of past I could tear down a 4G63 and put it back together blind folded. This DI stuff and carbon issues and needing specific this or that oil is new for me.

We just have to have patience. Every time something new is tried with respect to emissions or fuel economy, there are always hiccups, not to mention calls that the sky is falling. You should have seen the hubbub when fuel injection started becoming the norm, that everyone would be spending thousands of dollars keeping their cars running.

It is interesting to note that, according the Car and Driver, VW/Audi is introducing a new DI system that runs on direct injection part of the time, and runs in a more conventional mode other times. It's supposed to take advantage of the times when each system is better at fuel economy, emissions, and power. I bet it keeps things cleaner, too.

 

[edyvw]

I think you should get Toyota Camry!

 

[dbrowne1]

Here is the oil portion from the 2013 Golf Owner's Manual. Seems pretty clear to me.

2013 Golf Manual

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
I think you should get Toyota Camry!


Oh man you had to go there! Ha ha

Not me. Maybe an STi next time or a new Evo 11

Jeff

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Here is the oil portion from the 2013 Golf Owner's Manual. Seems pretty clear to me.

2013 Golf Manual


I can't open your file but what page are you referring to I can just read it on my manual. Is it the oil approval page?

Jeff

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I know your not picking on me andi do understand certain things. I am new to DI. My Evo's of past I could tear down a 4G63 and put it back together blind folded. This DI stuff and carbon issues and needing specific this or that oil is new for me.



We just have to have patience. Every time something new is tried with respect to emissions or fuel economy, there are always hiccups, not to mention calls that the sky is falling. You should have seen the hubbub when fuel injection started becoming the norm, that everyone would be spending thousands of dollars keeping their cars running.

It is interesting to note that, according the Car and Driver, VW/Audi is introducing a new DI system that runs on direct injection part of the time, and runs in a more conventional mode other times. It's supposed to take advantage of the times when each system is better at fuel economy, emissions, and power. I bet it keeps things cleaner, too.


Your right well said.

Jeff