Sure… The definition of hydrodynamic portion of the Stribeck curve. Should I have said “bearing separation by the oil” for you.
Last edited:
Upcoming 0W5 Grade Red Line Oil Experiment- 2019 Lincoln Navigator 4WD 3.5L V6 Twin Turbo
- Thread starter AEHaas
- Start date
- Status
gathermewool
Site Donor 2023
Did I miss where @AEHaas stated where he’s sending the oil to and what tests they’re performing? Are any of them doing a particle count or simple spectroscopy?
Oil pressure and temperature data collection would have been helpful to have.
I don’t understand all of the hate. This guy is obviously rich, so what does it matter whether he wrecks this engine or not? I mean, I am 100% interested in this kind of stuff, because it costs me nothing.
I don’t agree with his logic wherein something needs to be seen to be believed. I’m sure that’s a bit of an exaggeration and he’s not being literal, because I‘d be extremely concerned if that’s his philosophy for other important decisions in life. I mean, it would be insane for anyone with an actual stake in something to not use empirical data and lessons learned/best practices. Why would anyone need to prove something like this to themselves, is what I’m getting at.
Oil pressure and temperature data collection would have been helpful to have.
I don’t understand all of the hate. This guy is obviously rich, so what does it matter whether he wrecks this engine or not? I mean, I am 100% interested in this kind of stuff, because it costs me nothing.
I don’t agree with his logic wherein something needs to be seen to be believed. I’m sure that’s a bit of an exaggeration and he’s not being literal, because I‘d be extremely concerned if that’s his philosophy for other important decisions in life. I mean, it would be insane for anyone with an actual stake in something to not use empirical data and lessons learned/best practices. Why would anyone need to prove something like this to themselves, is what I’m getting at.
In this case, it may take a while for a failure to happen. Way to low HTHS viscosity will cause more wear, there's no question there. For instance, if the journal bearings wear to a certain degree, it's possible one of them could get to a point where it goes downhill fast ("eats itself"), locks-up enough to spin and possibly throw a rod like @OVERKILL mentioned. But I'm thinking this test vehicle won't be driven hard enough or long enough to see that happen sooner than later, or maybe never depending on use conditions, and will just have much more bearing and engine wear as a minimum.
But if the oil volume gets there it doesn't mean there's adequate lubrication. The other parts of adequate lubrication is proper MOFT (film thickness) to keep moving parts adequately separated, and a good AF/AW tribofilm (film strength). At least super thin oils like 0W-8 and below have more AF/AW additives which they need to help take over the wear protection when the MOFT starts to fail doing its main goal.
Part of keeping that MOFT wedge adequate is the oil viscosity. Too low viscosity can result in zero MOFT, causing wear and damage. Thought that was pretty much known by any constant reader of this forum because it's discussed almost daily, lol.
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2010
- Messages
- 9,807
Which is the main problem with a test like this. An OEM would test for hundreds of thousands of miles under various loads and environmental conditions and then rinse/repeat until there is a large enough sample base to establish a true repeatable result.
No disrespect to the OP, but he will not be able to do that unless he has unlimited resources, third party relationships, and lab(s) at his disposal. So the results will have to be taken "with a grain of salt" as the vehicle could fail the week after the test is complete or not and it is that unknown that lack of testing methodology/process/procedure produces.
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2010
- Messages
- 9,807
Beat me to it--these are the points that are missing in the conversation. Thanks Zee.
Those are the basic working points of Tribology and how oil keeps moving parts from wearing, and it's been mentioned over and over by many members here, but seems that it goes unabsorbed by many.
This has been posted many times which gives the basics, and everyone should read it and see the importance of film thickness (MOFT) and film strength (AF/AW tribofilm).
The Importance of Lubricant Film Strength
Discover why film strength is one of the most critical lubricant properties for protecting a machine’s internal components.
www.machinerylubrication.com
wemay
Site Donor 2023
That's all and fine and dandy as long as the oil doesn't leak out of the bearings first.
Proper hydrodynamic bearing lubrication (ie, an adequate MOFT to prevent wear) requires a minimum viscosity ... journal bearing lubrication is viscosity dependant. Too low a HTHS viscosity and bearings can start to wear and become damaged. The Sribeck curve has nothing to do with the MOFT in bearings due to the many factors involved - HTHS viscosity, RPM, oil pump feed pressure, bearing oil flow rate, bearing clearance, oil temperature rise inside the bearing.
Well, if each oil filter cup open and inspection shows increasing metal debris then I'd say that's an indication that things aren't going well. A UOA won't show major wear, like visible debris in an oil filter.
I linked to the following article in another thread. A UOA could be pretty useless when major wear damage is happening. Monitoring the oil filter is going to show if major damage is happening probably better than a UOA will.
Note ... the photos don't show up in this article depending on what browser you're using, so use a different browser if the photos don't show up.
Understanding the Limitations of Oil Analysis
Some sealants give false positives of silicates and elemental metals measurements with an ICP spectroscopy are limited to a certain range of particle size, usually four to seven microns. Generally, labs will tell you that parts per million (ppm) numbers in the one or two range can be nuisance...
reliabilityweb.com
Well… They heat up the Formula 1 engine to 80 deg. C (176 F) The bearings have tighter clearances. The oil needs to thin out to match.Don't have to as long as you're using the 10W in the climate a 10W is rated for.
Lots of good engineering and well controlled scientific experiments and studies have been done on engine wear for decades ... therefore, personally I don't have to conduct my own experiments to see how something will behave. Just have to glean through all the studies to determine the overall consensus of the test results Just like I don't have to build a rocket to try and get myself high enough to "see with my own eyes" that the Earth isn't flat, lol.
MOFT is always changing with the oil temperature, and that is old news too…
And it was explained why.
Yep, it should be old news, but what happens when the oil gets to a temperature where the MOFT goes to zero inside a journal bearing?
Well… we are talkin about some hot stuff there. Got any (hot) links?
The bearing clearance has a lot to do with the importance of MOFT.
Technical Info - King Bearings - Engine Bearing specialist
Tech Articles: Tech Data: Tech videos:
www.kingbearings.com
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
