Upcoming 0W5 Grade Red Line Oil Experiment- 2019 Lincoln Navigator 4WD 3.5L V6 Twin Turbo

[demarpaint]

So, basically, all tests without a control are useless and we can only know if it’s fine or not depending on if his engine throws a rod.

No he can tear it down and mic it up before it throws a rod. In the end it will be cheaper and tell the whole story of how good or bad the oil did. Run it 50K miles with 5K OCI's and a good 0W5 synthetic oil, normal driving, city, highway, etc. nothing crazy. Now that's an experiment of real interest.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Well… we are talkin about some hot stuff there.

Technical Info - King Bearings - Engine Bearing specialist

Tech Articles: Tech Data: Tech videos:

www.kingbearings.com

If the MOFT goes to zero inside a journal bearing is dependent on many things. If you start with a very thin oil, it's not going to take as much temperature to get the MOFT to zero than it would with a thicker oil - all other factors held constant. This is why thicker oils are recommended and used in hard use conditions that elevate oil temperature pretty high. If you kept WD-40 cold enough, it could probably be ran in an engine for 1000s of miles.

 

[slo town]

I consider myself to be a scientist. A common theme I had for many years was that:
I'll believe it when I see it.
I did well with this for many years.

Then I read a book that changed my life:
You'll See It When You Believe It: The Way to Your Personal Transformation by Wayne Dyer

As a physician, I can say that people would benefit from reading this book. I like self-help books (obviously I need all the help I can get...).

Ali

"For a control, did you not cut the filter open you took off prior to this experiment?"
That would have been beneficial, I did not think of that one. Oh well.

Also, the total milage on this oil is actually 1,059 miles. I did not want to take it too far in case the wear was excessive. I do not think that some elevated wear for a short period will hurt much. How thin can an oil get with a cooler running engine anyway? I do not have the loads these "racing" oils were made to handle so I figured it would be safe.

Dr. Hass, you've worked hard to accomplish all the things you have. But for you, a plastic surgeon, to say that you are a scientist and such, I think it reflects poorly on you and your medical practice.

To say things like "I'll believe it when I see it" and to use non-recommended lubricants in your stable of expensive automobiles, I think it suggests that you might use drugs for "off label" purposes, just to see what happens.

You may think you're preaching to the proletariat class, people who are not your clients, but word travels and reputations can be damaged quickly. Earlier I noticed you changed your signature to include your business name and address, which you have since removed. Wise move.

If I were one of your close friends, one of your trusted colleagues or business partners, your therapist, or your life coach I would strongly suggest you stop making posts about your automotive experiments. To continue to do so may negatively affect your medical practice. That would be a much greater loss than hand grenading a $150K Ferrari motor because you went "off label" with the oil.

Sincerely,

Scott

 

[CarbonSteel]

If the MOFT goes to zero inside a journal bearing is dependent on many things. If you start with a very thin oil, it's not going to take as much temperature to get the MOFT to zero than it would with a thicker oil - all other factors held constant. This is why thicker oils are recommended and used in hard use conditions that elevate oil temperature pretty high. If you kept WD-40 cold enough, it could probably be ran in an engine for 1000s of miles.

Exactly, let's assume for a minute that at speeds of less than 65MPH and 80°F that wear rates are only slightly accelerated and the engine would last nearly as long as one ran with the correct viscosity.

What happens when you start driving 75MPH in 100°F? What about towing a load at 70MPH across the desert? What about driving at highway speeds for 8 hours continuously? How long will it last if the oil temperature rises to 240°F or higher?

The fact the engine does not immediately grenade does not mean it will survive long term use of under viscosity oil nor does it mean the engine would not grenade if you up the load and temperature still within normal use of the vehicle. Point of fact is without the use of controls, parameters, and developing repeatable and verifiable test results in a multitude of conditions we simply do not know.

 

[Bill_W]

The oil needed per OM is 5w30 SN plus or above. OM recommended Motorcraft. My curiosity is will the oil temperature go down with the thin oil but there is not an oil temperature sensor on the OM list. I guess when you take it to extremes there has to be a point of negative return. All turbo engines seem to like 5w30 and not the thin stuff. My thinking would be that is the weak link.

 

[TiGeo]

Now do the same adding Liquimoly MoS2!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Exactly, let's assume for a minute that at speeds of less than 65MPH and 80°F that wear rates are only slightly accelerated and the engine would last nearly as long as one ran with the correct viscosity.

What happens when you start driving 75MPH in 100°F? What about towing a load at 70MPH across the desert? What about driving at highway speeds for 8 hours continuously? How long will it last if the oil temperature rises to 240°F or higher?

The fact the engine does not immediately grenade does not mean it will survive long term use of under viscosity oil nor does it mean the engine would not grenade if you up the load and temperature still within normal use of the vehicle. Point of fact is without the use of controls, parameters, and developing repeatable and verifiable test results in a multitude of conditions we simply do not know.

Exactly ... that's why I like some HTHS headroom, because it will cover all kinds of driving conditions without wondering how close the MOFT is running to the ragged edge of reduced engine wear protection.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Exactly ... that's why I like some HTHS headroom, because it will cover all kinds of driving conditions without wondering how close the MOFT is running to the ragged edge.

and 0W-5 is about as close to that as you can get

 

[OVERKILL]

My view is this is not a ”one time” for this lad. Starving an engine oil pump of oil is completely different.

How is he starving the engine oil pump? He's not doing high G banked turns here, he's doing donuts.

Compare apples to apples. If a car overheats the normal weight oil overheats and goes thin. It is not out of reach of thinking that 0w oil goes through to the 5 weight oil to get to what ever weight oil is normal viscosity successfully and at normal RPM the oil is in the hydrodynamic curve at that 5 weight. (Moving with oil separation)

What?

 

[CarbonSteel]

The oil needed per OM is 5w30 SN plus or above. OM recommended Motorcraft. My curiosity is will the oil temperature go down with the thin oil but there is not an oil temperature sensor on the OM list. I guess when you take it to extremes there has to be a point of negative return. All turbo engines seem to like 5w30 and not the thin stuff. My thinking would be that is the weak link.

I do not think the oil temperature will go down especially if the load is up (75+, higher ambient temperatures, towing, etc).

I agree the twin turbochargers will likely be the first casualties...

 

[ZeeOSix]

I agree the twin turbochargers will likely be the first casualties...

Yep, there's a reason that almost all newer turboed engines spec at least a xW-30. Those that spec a xW-20 most likely have added cooling for the oil that goes to the turbo bearings.

 

[OVERKILL]

Well… If there is RPM on the engine the oil is pumping and the bearings are in hydrodynamic portion of the Stribeck curve.

Bearings are the reason we have HTHS. They shear the oil, this oil's HTHS is far below the design threshold for the bearings in this engine.

Cold start 0w-5 is the same viscosity as what you have in your car when you start it when cold.

No it isn't. This oil is 21cSt at 40C, the oil in my truck is 46cSt at 40C.
At 20C:
This "0W5": 82.21cSt
My 0W-20: 111.70cSt

At 100C, the 0W-40 in my SRT is 14.38cSt, closer to the 40C viscosity of the "0W5".

There is oil separation and the engine will not blow up. The 5 viscosity is at 212 F oil temperature whatever cSt that is. The engine made it there without catastrophic failure.

Again, it's about the HTHS viscosity, which, with this oil is 1.58cP. Below 2.6cP specific design changes need to be made to bearings to survive. This engine was not designed for that scenario.

 

[Shel_B]

Bearings are the reason we have HTHS. They shear the oil, this oil's HTHS is far below the design threshold for the bearings in this engine.

No it isn't. This oil is 21cSt at 40C, the oil in my truck is 46cSt at 40C.
At 20C:
This "0W5": 82.21cSt
My 0W-20: 111.70cSt

At 100C, the 0W-40 in my SRT is 14.38cSt, closer to the 40C viscosity of the "0W5".

Again, it's about the HTHS viscosity, which, with this oil is 1.58cP. Below 2.6cP specific design changes need to be made to bearings to survive. This engine was not designed for that scenario.

Once again, facts get in the way of speculation and hypothesizing. You're a bad boy, @OVERKILL.

 

[AEHaas]

In an SAE paper I presented earlier: ( https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...-5-were-unacceptable-for-wear-control.364170/ )
wear was steady above a HTHS of 2.5 but only doubled when the HTHS dropped to 1.8. I am using an oil at 1.6. That study used unrealistic stresses and non fully formulated SG mineral based oils. The engine was lop-sided and the oil temperature was steadily kept at 150C in the feed lines. So with my situation I should be safe in my opinion.

No, they did not study 1,000 cars nor engines and do a double blind study et cetera. And yet the editors at SAE thought it was a study worth publishing. I’ll bet few here knows what it takes for them to accept a study for publication. Often initial papers and results are sent back to the researches many times with suggestions as to how to better the study and interpretations. It can take many months or even years after a work is initially completed before it gets published.

Even the famous “Taxi Study” ( https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/the-frequently-quoted-taxi-study-sae-2005-01-3818.364101/ )
had only 4 taxis with each type of oil. ‘Not exactly statistically significant.

Maybe we should entirely eliminate the UOA section of this web site since people are given advice on a single UOA. The advise could be wholly misleading and totally wrong based on a single test.

I say again. I am an experimenter and present my data. Some will get some benefit from it. I also have experimented with other things. Like various types of grass here in Florida and presented the data to Florida pesticide applicators during courses I teach for them. I have done experiments on mulch for the garden. I have made various changes to scuba diving gear, model airplanes, electronics and others areas of interest to me. I have had intercourse with manufacturers.

People can learn from these things or throw stones at me. I learned something when I was reviewing an article for publication in a medical journal. Many reviewers said it was worthless for a bunch of reasons and that it should not be published. I was one of them. The article was published anyway because it had a very very important lesson in it that was part of the story, and not at first obvious.

One test vehicle showing evidence that a modern 5 grade oil can be used in a lower stressed SUV may be valuable to some. A person who chooses to try a 20 grade oil in such a truck specifying a 30 grade oil may feel more comfortable doing so. Would it not be beneficial to gain just one piece of knowledge, if you look for it, rather than use all your energy to find fault?

ali

 

[Rand]

Can someone write a paper on how to multiquote I go crosseyed with his manual copy no quotes method.

 

[bullwinkle]

I know a solution to this experiment-Dr. Haas needs to ship his Navigator to me, I will do 5000 mile OCIs with Castrol Magnatec/GTX 5W30, and he can buy another one and run 0W5 in it. I'll even do UOAs and post cut open filters! First engine to blow up LOSES! I like my odds...

 

[gathermewool]

One point that also hasn’t been discussed is the margin to catastrophic bearing failure is also reduced for knock events. How well tuned are these? How much knock is required and how often to damage a bearing, but not pistons and such?

I’d hate to wipe a bearing because of a tank of bad gas that wouldn’t damage the engine otherwise and would not have happened if a proper viscosity was used. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the tribo layer isn’t meant to handle blunt force trauma.

 

[gathermewool]

That's all and fine and dandy as long as the oil doesn't leak out of the bearings first.

How do you think bearings work?

 

[demento]

It seems crazy, but to get 1 mpg more is a great incentive!

 

[kschachn]

It seems crazy, but to get 1 mpg more is a great incentive!

What?

Got that ankle monitor yet?