thin perhaps not as good as i thought

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: chiks
A piston moving down is going to create air pressure. How does this qualify as blowby?


And a piston going up creates a vacuum.

On a healthy engine, the crankcase is under very light vacuum during light load and cruise due to the nature of the PCV system and the vacuum it effects upon the crankcase.

In an engine with excessive blow-by, the amount of combustion gasses making their way by the rings overwhelms the PCV system and results in air looking for alternative means to evacuate the crankcase, such as out the breather tube into the air intake tract (which normally has air going IN to off-set the suction from the PCV) and out the dipstick tube.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Trav
I am only talking about Germany because the OP drives there sometimes and runs WOT. Specs in other Euro countries will probably be different.
Austria and Switzerland are similar to Germany while Finland specs a lot of 0w30. England, Ireland and the Benelux do use some 20w. Italy is big on 0w40 and 5w40.

Germany has a keep to the right law which means unless you are passing someone you must stay to the right.
The law is somewhat lenient, if the right lane is congested with LKW and buses then you can get away with driving in the middle lane until there is ample space to get into the right lane.
Travel in the middle and left lane when the right lane is free is strictly forbidden and is an offense with fines and license points.

So if there are cars in the middle lane passing trucks and you are going faster then you get into the left lane until you can get into the middle.
No one is forced to run WOT but most do if there is room.
Speed limits on autobahns through cities are low and enforced with speed cameras as is dangerous sections.

Running a tiny Nissan Micra 1.1 or similar WOT is a strain on the little engine at 100 MPH which is its top speed but people run them everyday like that.

Thanks for the info on the autobahns.

Actually the US interstates are not that much different than the autobahns at all. According to Wikipedia, the average speed on the autobahns in rural areas is 87 MPH. Here we have a 75 MPH speed limit but you don't normally get ticketed unless you exceed the speed limit by 15 MPH or more, therefore effectively our speed limit on the interstates is 89 MPH. A lot of the people on rural interstates stick to the 75 MPH but a lot of them drive in excess of 85 - 90 MPH, some risking getting ticketed. So, things are not much slower here.

Also, in US, it's usually a lot hotter, and we have a lot of deserts in the western part of US. Your oil will run thinner as a result, no matter how powerful your cooling system is, engine fans struggling to keep the coolant temperature not too higher than 95 C, at which the thermostat fully opens.

Probably one of the most demanding drives around here is the I-15 interstate between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. People drive around 85 MPH on long stretches of 10% uphill grades with the outside temperature being 45 C or more. Even some of the powerful cars struggle.

The two differences here are that in rural areas interstates have only two lanes and the keep-right law isn't strictly enforced, leading to some slow drivers impeding the traffic. Very slow trucks (going as slow as 35 MPH) in a truck convoy often get frustrated and try to pass the truck going, say, 34 MPH in front of it, only 1 MPH faster, and imagine how long it takes for a truck to pass another with only 1 MPH speed difference. I drove cross-country on the interstates twice, and both were a lot of fun.

The no-speed-limit on autobahns seems to be as a result of the government policy to help the German auto industry so that the German cars are built and marketed as performance cars and the demand for them around the world is kept high in this way. Regarding actual speeds, US interstates are not that much slower than the autobahns, our actual rural-interstate speeds being not much lower than the autobahns' actual 87 MPH average. You can only speed so much before things start getting dangerous, as the kinetic energy and braking distance increase with the square of the speed. Most sane people won't drive faster than 100 MPH as a result, no matter what car they drive and where. Moreover, since most analog speedometers are designed to show 10% more than the actual speed, when you see 100 MPH (161 km/h) on your speedometer, your actual speed is only 90 MPH (145 km/h).


M5 on the autobahn:

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Actually the US interstates are not that much different than the autobahns at all. According to Wikipedia, the average speed on the autobahns in rural areas is 87 MPH.


I think I'd be more interested in the median speed rather than the mean speed. Even though people regularly flout speed limits, even having a limit does significantly alter behaviour for a significant portion of the driving population.

As an aside, North America must do something to keep people in the right lane. We used to at least have "Keep Right Except to Pass" signs all over the place (though enforcement was lax), but those have effectively disappeared.

 

[ac_tc]

Well i own 2 of these whatch winder engines (1 liter hyundai)
And you cant compare em with a bigger engine, these engines run "autobahn" in ordinary traffic due to their low output...
Anyway, ive always run em on 10w-40 hdeo and the first one went 160k km/ 100k miles before the gearbox went south and the car was put away, engine was as good as it was new.
Second one went 90k km/ 56k miles before it seized due to
a ruptured lower cooling hoose and a nice friend who fixed the hoose and only filled the expansion bottle and then took a long and nice test run with the car. I ended up whit getting a car trailer and drive 600 km´s to get my wife and her car back.
This engine is toast and will end up in the scrapyard but the other one is going into the car at this time.
I will continue to use 10w-40 hdeo.

 

[Prelude]

Originally Posted By: salgra
okay guy's changed the rio to shell helix ultra 5w40, and changed filter. took it for a spin.
blow by is the same, still horible


You may have damaged the piston rings (overheated). If you are right that the factory oil was 15W-40 than switching to 0W-20 is like running an engine w/o proper break-in. You shouldn't have run the car at the top speed for a few thousands km after the oil change. And probably the most reliable way to avoid the damage is to use normal viscosities like 10W-40 or 5W-40.

 

[mechtech2]

If the load is high, such as climbing a hill at high speed or towing a trailer, it's best to use highest RPM possible without redlining the engine.

Nonsense.^^
This was accompanied by long winded 'reasoning"!

Simply note that no car mfr recommends or programs their cars do do this.
The end of that silly discussion!

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Simply note that no car mfr recommends or programs their cars do do this.

Toyota, the biggest car manufacturer in the world, does.

I have the legendary 240L 4-speed AT, which was used well into the 1990s or perhaps even later. It downshifts to the 3rd gear at high speeds if the throttle is 80% or higher, regardless of how fast you're going, even at speeds in excess of 100 MPH. The owners' manual also recommends to turn of the 4th gear (overdrive) off while towing a trailer, for higher charging and cooling efficiency.

 

[Vincenzo_f]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Diesels don't like thin oil. The reason is twofold: (1) they generate a lot of abrasive soot particulates, and (2) they generate a lot of torque at low RPM, where the viscous reaction force to the torque, applied by the oil, is small due to low RPM. Both (1) and (2) require a thicker oil (film) for more protection against wear and damage.

Kroon claims it's A3/B4 (HTHS viscosity >= 3.5 cP) but would you believe that claim? I haven't seen any other 0W-20 oil with high HTHS viscosity.

In a diesel engine, I would use at least 0W-40, regardless of what the manufacturer recommends. You can also use 10W-40 (about the same thickness), 5W-40 (usually thicker because usually intended for heavy-duty diesels), or 15W-40 (thickest, intended for heavy-duty diesels). Of course, you can also go up to the xW-50 grade, but that would be unnecessarily thick.

My recommendation would be Mobil 1 0W-40.


Interesting your point of view (low RPM/high torque, high HTHS). But, for example, Honda in Italy recommends as the first choice a 0w30 B5 grade oil and, yes, 0w40 B4 grade oil (up to 10w40) for its 2.2liter diesel turbocharged. Following your reasoning, the recommendation by Honda to use an oil very very thin like a 0w30 B5 is hazardous. It's sound little strange to me.

 

[mechtech2]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Simply note that no car mfr recommends or programs their cars do do this.

Toyota, the biggest car manufacturer in the world, does.

I have the legendary 240L 4-speed AT, which was used well into the 1990s or perhaps even later. It downshifts to the 3rd gear at high speeds if the throttle is 80% or higher, regardless of how fast you're going, even at speeds in excess of 100 MPH. The owners' manual also recommends to turn of the 4th gear (overdrive) off while towing a trailer, for higher charging and cooling efficiency.


Everyone knows that auto trannys downshift when the throttle is applied heavily.
But this is an entirely different subject.
So good luck towing at 100 MPH...

 

[NateDN10]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
If the load is high, such as climbing a hill at high speed or towing a trailer, it's best to use highest RPM possible without redlining the engine.

Nonsense.^^
This was accompanied by long winded 'reasoning"!

Simply note that no car mfr recommends or programs their cars do do this.
The end of that silly discussion!

The '01 4-cyl A/T Accord would use 2nd gear (over 5000 RPM) to climb big hills at 65-70 mph.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Prelude
Originally Posted By: salgra
okay guy's changed the rio to shell helix ultra 5w40, and changed filter. took it for a spin.
blow by is the same, still horible


You may have damaged the piston rings (overheated). If you are right that the factory oil was 15W-40 than switching to 0W-20 is like running an engine w/o proper break-in. You shouldn't have run the car at the top speed for a few thousands km after the oil change. And probably the most reliable way to avoid the damage is to use normal viscosities like 10W-40 or 5W-40.


+1!

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
If the load is high, such as climbing a hill at high speed or towing a trailer, it's best to use highest RPM possible without redlining the engine.

Nonsense.^^
This was accompanied by long winded 'reasoning"!

Simply note that no car mfr recommends or programs their cars do do this.
The end of that silly discussion!


Why exactly is this non-sense?
And why is this silly discussion?

 

[salgra]

guy's i wanted to share this with you:

ftp://ftp.astmtmc.cmu.edu/docs/diesel/hdeocp/minutes/2001/hdeocp.2001-07/0701ATT16.PDF

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: salgra
guy's i wanted to share this with you:

ftp://ftp.astmtmc.cmu.edu/docs/diesel/hdeocp/minutes/2001/hdeocp.2001-07/0701ATT16.PDF



Yeah, but Ford did a bajillion miles of testing...

Cool, thanks for the link, it's interesting added to the lower viscosity improved seal link that pops up regularly.

 

[skyship]

Very interesting, BUT it would be real good if you sent some used oil samples to Blackstones from the 0mygod/20 and later from the 5avedengine/40 I think would be good.
Do you suspect any sludge issues, have any oil leaks or high oil consumption?? If so then try a 5/40 HM oil, otherwise just switch to a major brand Part synthetic, HC or fully synthetic oil and perhaps pick something from the Castrol, Liqui Moly or Mobil German web site oil guides. Edge 5/40, Synthoil 5/40 or Mobil 0/40 are all very good oils.
If you are concerned with the minor fuel consumption savings of thinner oils, try a good 5/30 Longlife oil.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: salgra
guy's i wanted to share this with you:
ftp://ftp.astmtmc.cmu.edu/docs/diesel/hdeocp/minutes/2001/hdeocp.2001-07/0701ATT16.PDF

Yeah, but Ford did a bajillion miles of testing...
Cool, thanks for the link, it's interesting added to the lower viscosity improved seal link that pops up regularly.


That's the problem, FORD did the testing so the results are biased and they have to reduce fuel consumption. I would not be surprised if they wrote the conclusions before doing the tests.
The German engine oil companies won't use their data because, to use a rough translation it is "Self interested rubbish". In other words they think the CEO et al are only paying for reports saying yes to 0 or 5/20.
German tests produce similar results to the linked graph and they just keep saying 0-5/30 or 0-5/40 for nearly all the Ford engines except a few new hybrids.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: salgra
guy's i wanted to share this with you:
ftp://ftp.astmtmc.cmu.edu/docs/diesel/hdeocp/minutes/2001/hdeocp.2001-07/0701ATT16.PDF

Yeah, but Ford did a bajillion miles of testing...
Cool, thanks for the link, it's interesting added to the lower viscosity improved seal link that pops up regularly.


That's the problem, FORD did the testing so the results are biased and they have to reduce fuel consumption. I would not be surprised if they wrote the conclusions before doing the tests.
The German engine oil companies won't use their data because, to use a rough translation it is "Self interested rubbish". In other words they think the CEO et al are only paying for reports saying yes to 0 or 5/20.
German tests produce similar results to the linked graph and they just keep saying 0-5/30 or 0-5/40 for nearly all the Ford engines except a few new hybrids.


Interesting. I'm not going to even go there and touch the thick vs. thin debate. I have a busy day ahead of me and don't have the time to get involved. All I'll say is I remember Gary Allen [RIP] telling me, you pay for the tests you get the results you're looking for. That may or may not apply here. LOL

 

[Cujet]

I live in Florida, where it's quite hot and humid most of the year. I own rural property, where there was no power. Also, the construction area needed the removal of standing water prior to the foundation. (long story for another day)

I purchased a Honda powered water pump, and let it run for days on end. It failed due to oil issues. It was replaced under warranty and the second one failed. Same problem, the stationary engine ran hot, the "recommended" 10W-30 oil was unable to protect under these conditions. I replaced that with a Kawasaki powered pump, switched to Mobil 1 15W-50 and have not had a problem since. (I currently use the pump for irrigation)

Same goes for generators. After the hurricanes, there were months without power. I used M1 15W-50 with excellent results. My local area (population 10,000) were all on generator power. The number of failures were significant. All of them due to oil related issues. (lack of viscosity) Obviously, the load, the heat, oil choice and oil change intervals all play a role.

My 385HP turbo Mazda also did well on heavier viscosity synthetics. I did try a 0W-20 oil in an attempt at reducing oil windage and friction. That resulted in a UOA with lead in the 250PPM range! That one mistake resulted in engine disassembly and overhaul. While it did not cause the engine to catastrophically fail, it did result in exceptionally rapid wear rates and "surprise",,,,,, massive blow by.

My 4.6L Ford F150 had significantly better UOA's on 10W-30 M1 vs. the OEM's required 5W-20. 260,000+ miles later, I guess the UOA's were right! The cross hatch marks are still in the cylinders!

Same goes for my 5.4L F150. The engine simply sounds better on more viscous oil, the UOA's are better and so on....

Here in Florida, a thin oil will work just fine and I'm not saying it won't. However, under certain conditions, more viscosity is clearly better.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
I live in Florida, where it's quite hot and humid most of the year. I own rural property, where there was no power. Also, the construction area needed the removal of standing water prior to the foundation. (long story for another day)

I purchased a Honda powered water pump, and let it run for days on end. It failed due to oil issues. It was replaced under warranty and the second one failed. Same problem, the stationary engine ran hot, the "recommended" 10W-30 oil was unable to protect under these conditions. I replaced that with a Kawasaki powered pump, switched to Mobil 1 15W-50 and have not had a problem since. (I currently use the pump for irrigation)

Same goes for generators. After the hurricanes, there were months without power. I used M1 15W-50 with excellent results. My local area (population 10,000) were all on generator power. The number of failures were significant. All of them due to oil related issues. (lack of viscosity) Obviously, the load, the heat, oil choice and oil change intervals all play a role.

My 385HP turbo Mazda also did well on heavier viscosity synthetics. I did try a 0W-20 oil in an attempt at reducing oil windage and friction. That resulted in a UOA with lead in the 250PPM range! That one mistake resulted in engine disassembly and overhaul. While it did not cause the engine to catastrophically fail, it did result in exceptionally rapid wear rates and "surprise",,,,,, massive blow by.

My 4.6L Ford F150 had significantly better UOA's on 10W-30 M1 vs. the OEM's required 5W-20. 260,000+ miles later, I guess the UOA's were right! The cross hatch marks are still in the cylinders!

Same goes for my 5.4L F150. The engine simply sounds better on more viscous oil, the UOA's are better and so on....

Here in Florida, a thin oil will work just fine and I'm not saying it won't. However, under certain conditions, more viscosity is clearly better.


Better put the flame suit on. LOL Then hide.

All kidding aside, thanks for posting.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
My 385HP turbo Mazda also did well on heavier viscosity synthetics. I did try a 0W-20 oil in an attempt at reducing oil windage and friction. That resulted in a UOA with lead in the 250PPM range! That one mistake resulted in engine disassembly and overhaul. While it did not cause the engine to catastrophically fail, it did result in exceptionally rapid wear rates and "surprise",,,,,, massive blow by.

My 4.6L Ford F150 had significantly better UOA's on 10W-30 M1 vs. the OEM's required 5W-20. 260,000+ miles later, I guess the UOA's were right! The cross hatch marks are still in the cylinders!

Same goes for my 5.4L F150. The engine simply sounds better on more viscous oil, the UOA's are better and so on....


The 20w didn't have a high enough VI and you didn't keep your eyes glued your OP and oil temp gauges. It has to be your fault!

JK