TBN is useless to me running OCI at 3K. Get some fuel dilution with GDI and 2.L turbo. 3 min warm up, 3 min cool down time, driving its under 20 psi. Much rather always have viscosity and not water down viscosity. Excessive yes, oil is cheap compared to cost of new turbo. This is exact reason why the eco boost has a bad rap. Ppl don’t change the oil often enough, use 20wt and don’t allow cool down time. I drive semis for the last 25 years. Never lost a turbo. Allow warm up, and never shut down until a 5 min cool down period.
Keep using A3/B4 or?
- Thread starter mdocod
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You have read the posts about the government fleet of EcoBoosts that run HPL on 15k+ intervals for over 2 billion combined miles that haven’t lost any cam phasers, turbos, or other oil-related issues over the past decade-plus, haven’t you?
“Basic” 5w30, 5k filter changes. Hundreds of hours of idle time, brutal operating conditions, and no personal investment in the condition of the vehicle since they’re not paying for it… and no failures. It’s possible.
I'm not the one claiming that poor point is more relevant. I can only compare the numbers offered for comparison...
If I see a 5w40 and a 0w40 with the same poor point, and other 0w40's with a much lower poor point, I can and will read a bit of something into that. Very likely, the reason the M1 0W40 does so well in many other tests, is that it is formulated closer to a 5w40 but just barely passes the 0W viscosity requirements, so they are hiding that "on edge" test result.... Everything is a tradeoff, and the "closer to 5w40" characteristics mean less viscosity modifiers to break down and probably a thicker base oil, probably why so many people love this oil, but perhaps we shouldn't be comparing it to other 0W40's that might have a thinner base oil and more polymers.
No offense, but this isn’t reading tea leaves. It passes all of the required testing to be a 0w40. That’s it. As far as VII content, only Mobil knows the truth.
Approvals and certifications are what matters here, and the real reason most seem to “love this oil” is likely its inclusion of ANs & esters that keep the engine clean, plus its numerous Euro certifications that prove this oil is very robust. That’s all we can say for sure.
No offense, but this isn’t reading tea leaves. It passes all of the required testing to be a 0w40. That’s it. As far as VII content, only Mobil knows the truth.
Approvals and certifications are what matters here, and the real reason most seem to “love this oil” is likely its inclusion of ANs & esters that keep the engine clean, plus its numerous Euro certifications that prove this oil is very robust. That’s all we can say for sure.
I was thinking more along the lines of the good UOA's that it delivers, which indicate its a solid performer in engines that like to tear up oil.
Honestly had to look up what "reading tea leaves" meant. Good one
I'd like to think I'm just reading between the lines here, you can choose to believe whether or not there's anything to read into there or not, but I think the tea leaf part of what I'm pointing out is related to why this oil does well and passes more rigorous tests in other areas. Returning to the original question, would you continue to run A3/B4 in these vehicles ore consider an A5/B5 for 5K intervals? Any advantage to A5/B5? Some things I have read seem to indicate that while A5/B5 has less TBN and lower HTHS, it may actually be better for some engines.
I do work closely with the CA Hwy Patrol. They beat the dog crap out of vehicles. The best they’ve ever has is the crown Vic. They’ve a lot of cyl head issues with the Tahoe, they also have had engine and tranny issues with the exploder. My employer. We have lots of F250 and F350. All V8s. The chevys have more issues than the fords. As far as repair cost, the government could care less and the employees they’re not paying the bill. I guess I wouldn’t care either about my car if someone else was paying the billYou have read the posts about the government fleet of EcoBoosts that run HPL on 15k+ intervals for over 2 billion combined miles that haven’t lost any cam phasers, turbos, or other oil-related issues over the past decade-plus, haven’t you?
“Basic” 5w30, 5k filter changes. Hundreds of hours of idle time, brutal operating conditions, and no personal investment in the condition of the vehicle since they’re not paying for it… and no failures. It’s possible.
A UOA is not the end all be all. You can run thin oil, but let’s see what it’s like with over 250k miles. Honda is known for an oil burner. Mine had 350k when I got rid of it. Day 1 had M1 0/40 from 500 miles. It used 1/2 qt of oil in 6K OCI. Usually needed a 1/4 qt at 3500 miles, 4500 another 1/4. That was a 2012 with the K24. Now my buddy has a 2012 Prius. 155k. Dealer serviced with piss water 0/16. Burns a qt a month. So UOA or Not. I’ll use A3/B4. Btw. My accord. Never did a valve adjustment ever. Valves were never noisy ever. So I guess Honda engines like the higher zddp. CAFE. The engine mfg only care about 2 things. Cafe and they’re solid as long as you make it past the warranty.I was thinking more along the lines of the good UOA's that it delivers, which indicate its a solid performer in engines that like to tear up oil.
Honestly had to look up what "reading tea leaves" meant. Good one
Returning to the original question, would you continue to run A3/B4 in these vehicles ore consider an A5/B5 for 5K intervals? Any advantage to A5/B5? Some things I have read seem to indicate that while A5/B5 has less TBN and lower HTHS, it may actually be better for some engines.
A3/B4 is a fine oil in older vehicles, if it’s working why stop?I was thinking more along the lines of the good UOA's that it delivers, which indicate its a solid performer in engines that like to tear up oil.
Honestly had to look up what "reading tea leaves" meant. Good one
Returning to the original question, would you continue to run A3/B4 in these vehicles ore consider an A5/B5 for 5K intervals? Any advantage to A5/B5? Some things I have read seem to indicate that while A5/B5 has less TBN and lower HTHS, it may actually be better for some engines.
Who claimed it was?
I'm not asking about running thin oil, I'm asking about running an A5/B5 instead of A3/B4. This would be a 5W30 or 0W30 with HTHS ~2.9-3.4.
I wouldn't run 0w16 in my cars because they all call for 0w30/5w30.
Availability/Price, especially of 0W30/5w30 which is the "correct" weight for these cars.
~4-7 years ago I could pretty reliably walk into a WM around here and find a 0W30 A3/B4.
~2-4 years ago I noticed the 0W30 dried up in A3/B4 but 0W40 was still common so I have used a lot of that.
Over the last couple years I'm noticing a decline in availability of 0w40 as well, with the only A3/B4's readily available at WM around here being 5w40 and occasionally 5w30.
As I see the 0W30 and 0w40 A3/B4 disappearing, I'm seeing several 5W30's A5/B5 readily available and thinking maybe I should just use those instead and wondering if anyone has an opinion about using A5/B5 vs A3/B4 for this sort of application.
“Good UOAs” is about the engine not the oil. One cannot determine comparative oil quality via a $30 spectrographic analysis like this. All those “good UOAs” are filled with myriad uncontrolled variables.I was thinking more along the lines of the good UOA's that it delivers, which indicate its a solid performer in engines that like to tear up oil.
Honestly had to look up what "reading tea leaves" meant. Good one
Returning to the original question, would you continue to run A3/B4 in these vehicles ore consider an A5/B5 for 5K intervals? Any advantage to A5/B5? Some things I have read seem to indicate that while A5/B5 has less TBN and lower HTHS, it may actually be better for some engines.
No oil with a lower HT/HS is “good for some engines”. The only thing lower HT/HS gets you is a slightly better fuel economy. Nothing else. All the rest are downsides.
And you still don’t understand the winter rating. You need to listen to the explanations already given. Are you starting below about -30 or so?
If you’re willing to use a 5w30 A5/B5, why not a 5w40 A3/B4?
Here’s what a quick search on Summit Racing revealed for A3/B4 oils, plenty to choose from: https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/engine-oil/engine-oil-approval-application/acea-a3-b4
You're sort of missing the point, twice.
1. "Why not use 5w40?" You tell me! Maybe I should just use the 5W40 in everything! I don't know. The cars all call for 0w30/5w30 weight oils so... If 10 people on an oil forum just say "5w40 will work great in those cars" then we have an answer here, but you're asking me? Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of a forum to discuss such a possibility?
2. I won't pay $10-20/qt of motor oil when wallymart has it for $4.50-5.50/qt.
You're just playing "bitog ball"
"People really seem to like this oil" - What people think doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is the specs it meets.
"This oil meets these really stringent difficult specifications, must be pretty good" -Specifications on the bottle mean nothing without good UOA's to prove it."
"This oil produces really good UOAs on long OCI's, must be pretty good" - UOA's don't matter, they only tell us about the engine not the oil"
"This oil meets all of the specifications that my car calls for and is in grade" - It's probably terrible for your car and will just get it through the warranty and nothing better.
Anything else you'd like to add to the circle to dismantle the entire purpose of why you and anyone else is here?
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Also, I understand how W ratings work but I suspect some people here oversimplify it and forget how those W ratings are being achieved, only paying attention to the viscosity at specific temperatures and the cold crank limits, as if engine oil is always either cold or at operating temp, and never in-between. It's easy to forget that most of our engines are not operated like continuous duty highway or generator type applications, and that a multi-grade oil usually starts off as a thinner base oil with viscosity modifiers (expanding polymers) to flatten the dynamic viscosity curve as heated.
The oil formulations used to achieve a particular W-XX multi rating impacts the viscosity dynamic curve throughout the entire temperature range the oil will see through warm-up, and in the temp variations away from 100C that do occur under different weather and engine load conditions. Some modern engines actually struggle to reach operating temp in casual driving due to increased efficiency and and too much coolant bypass even when thermostats are closed.
FYI... 0W30, 0W40, and 5W30 all tend to share similar viscosities in the -20-70C range (except for M1 0W40, which again, stands closer to a 5W40), which for our driving routine with these vehicles, is why I consider them more interchangeable than a 5w40.
For about 2 months per year, our average temps will be -4C, and we usually get 1 cold snap per year lasting a few days or a week with lows around -30C. A 5W rating here is sufficient but does not leave much headroom for the unknown. For those saying "you'll never be able to crank your engine at those temps the battery will be dead" ... Our cars have AGM batteries and I carry a LiPo jump box with me in the winter which can usually get an engine to crank at any temp we have ever seen around here. I prefer a 0W oil for around here when possible but a 5W usable.
Wow. That’s quite a post.You're sort of missing the point, twice.
1. "Why not use 5w40?" You tell me! Maybe I should just use the 5W40 in everything! I don't know. The cars all call for 0w30/5w30 weight oils so... If 10 people on an oil forum just say "5w40 will work great in those cars" then we have an answer here, but you're asking me? Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of a forum to discuss such a possibility?
2. I won't pay $10-20/qt of motor oil when wallymart has it for $4.50-5.50/qt.
You're just playing "bitog ball"
"People really seem to like this oil" - What people think doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is the specs it meets.
"This oil meets these really stringent difficult specifications, must be pretty good" -Specifications on the bottle mean nothing without good UOA's to prove it."
"This oil produces really good UOAs on long OCI's, must be pretty good" - UOA's don't matter, they only tell us about the engine not the oil"
"This oil meets all of the specifications that my car calls for and is in grade" - It's probably terrible for your car and will just get it through the warranty and nothing better.
Anything else you'd like to add to the circle to dismantle the entire purpose of why you and anyone else is here?
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Also, I understand how W ratings work but I suspect some people here oversimplify it and forget how those W ratings are being achieved, only paying attention to the viscosity at specific temperatures and the cold crank limits, as if engine oil is always either cold or at operating temp, and never in-between. It's easy to forget that most of our engines are not operated like continuous duty highway or generator type applications, and that a multi-grade oil usually starts off as a thinner base oil with viscosity modifiers (expanding polymers) to flatten the dynamic viscosity curve as heated.
The oil formulations used to achieve a particular W-XX multi rating impacts the viscosity dynamic curve throughout the entire temperature range the oil will see through warm-up, and in the temp variations away from 100C that do occur under different weather and engine load conditions. Some modern engines actually struggle to reach operating temp in casual driving due to increased efficiency and and too much coolant bypass even when thermostats are closed.
FYI... 0W30, 0W40, and 5W30 all tend to share similar viscosities in the -20-70C range (except for M1 0W40, which again, stands closer to a 5W40), which for our driving routine with these vehicles, is why I consider them more interchangeable than a 5w40.
For about 2 months per year, our average temps will be -4C, and we usually get 1 cold snap per year lasting a few days or a week with lows around -30C. A 5W rating here is sufficient but does not leave much headroom for the unknown. For those saying "you'll never be able to crank your engine at those temps the battery will be dead" ... Our cars have AGM batteries and I carry a LiPo jump box with me in the winter which can usually get an engine to crank at any temp we have ever seen around here. I prefer a 0W oil for around here when possible but a 5W usable.
First off you don’t know how multi viscosity oils work. There is no guarantee that an oil with a 0W winter rating is any thinner than an oil with a 6W rating above about -30. There is no “headroom” like the chemical process in a battery. It’s not the same.
And if an engine is struggling to warm up the oil then a thicker oil is beneficial. Thicker oils warm up faster than thinner one.
And I’ll stand by my UOA statement all day long. Blackstone themselves state that there is no statistically significant difference between any oil they have tested. An uncontrolled spectrographic analysis is just not the tool for that. You can use it for some things to determine engine health, but you will never be able to use it to determine comparative oil quality.
The rest of your post- well maybe someone else will unpack all of that.
If you can show me a dynamic viscosity chart of a multi-grade oil that doesn't follow a smooth curve on a log graph, then I'll entertain your claim.
To clarify on the headroom concern. We typically have a cold snap with lows around -30C every year at some point. The "HEADROOM" I'm talking about, is for the very real possibility that some years, that cold snap might hit -35C. What headroom are you talking about?
Below target operating temp, thinner oils flow better and reduce wear during the warm up period more than a tick oil warming faster would help.
In that case I should just run the cheapest API SP oil I can find at walmart in these cars and not concern myself with it... There's not going to be any difference?
I think you mean to say that maybe someone else will understand it. "Unpack" - the cringe.... aaaahhahhhh
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Glad you responded, it was more diplomatic than what first came to mind.
You're just making stuff up at this point in regards to the API SP oil.
And flow is meaningless in this context. If it pumps it will flow. This is determined by a proper winter rating. Oil is going to be flowing just fine during warmup but of course flow never lubricates anything anyway. Wear during warmup isn't due to a lack of "flow".
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You two have more patience than I do this weekend. I ducked out when he got combative and it was clear that this wasn't a good faith discussion.
I've only responded to derailments and "corrections" that aren't actually even corrections.... I mean, what am I supposed to do with a post that's trying to explain something I already know about the outcome of mixing 0W20 and 5w40, but framed as if I have claimed it produces something that I have no claimed it does? That's basically what's going on here- I say something, someone reads something into it that hasn't been said to correct something that isn't applicable, or make assumptions that don't apply... I have equal right to be upset about "not in good faith" responses here. Laterally people asking me "why not use XXXX" without actually commenting on why I should use it over the alternative I'm considering. A LOT of the responses here have been intended to generate combativeness.
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The only reason to use A5/B5 is if you’re really after a small fuel economy increase. That Sequence isn’t superior for any other attribute.