thin perhaps not as good as i thought
- Thread starter salgra
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Perceived air movement at the filler cap is tough to judge. There is also an in/out pulsation that feels like blowby, but is perfectly normal.
With no oil consumption, forget about your filler cap test.
With no oil consumption, forget about your filler cap test.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: chiks
How is air coming out of the oil filler cap considered as blow by?
Because that's air/combustion gasses from the crankcase, that has made its way past the rings.
These gases will come out of intake or exhaust valves. How does it comes out of the oil filler cap?
Originally Posted By: chiks
How is air coming out of the oil filler cap considered as blow by?
Because that's air/combustion gasses from the crankcase, that has made its way past the rings.
These gases will come out of intake or exhaust valves. How does it comes out of the oil filler cap?
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Perceived air movement at the filler cap is tough to judge. There is also an in/out pulsation that feels like blowby, but is perfectly normal.
With no oil consumption, forget about your filler cap test.
Good advice.
Perceived air movement at the filler cap is tough to judge. There is also an in/out pulsation that feels like blowby, but is perfectly normal.
With no oil consumption, forget about your filler cap test.
Good advice.
Quote:
These gases will come out of intake or exhaust valves
How is that working?
These gases will come out of intake or exhaust valves
How is that working?
Quote:
Afther 5w40 for 10K all three cars have close to no blow by at all! and 10k later at 0w20 they blow even more than the old perhaps worn 3.2 did pajero.
I wouldn't just ignore it if its smoking like a old frying pan out the fill hole in a young engine.
The OP maybe using the term "blow by" for just normal air pulsation, we cant see it so who knows.
Afther 5w40 for 10K all three cars have close to no blow by at all! and 10k later at 0w20 they blow even more than the old perhaps worn 3.2 did pajero.
I wouldn't just ignore it if its smoking like a old frying pan out the fill hole in a young engine.
The OP maybe using the term "blow by" for just normal air pulsation, we cant see it so who knows.
Originally Posted By: salgra
Good day fellow oil lovers. (long post)
I am a member of the thin oil club, however i always believed sufficient hths was important.
about a year ago my parents bought a new KIA Rio( 1.25 engine, i maintain it) and I bought a KIA Picanto ( 1.0 engine ) and a Mitsubishi ASX ( 1.6 petrol engine). so 3 new 0 km cars.
Always doing my own oil change on all three.
After 10000KM each vehicle, i switched them all over to Kroon oil 0w20 A3/b4 ( Yes I called kroon to confirm A3/b4 and hths )
link to the oil:
http://www.kroon-oil.com/en/products/cat...b-omschrijving/
After the first 10000 Km all three had negligible blow-by. if you took of the oil filler cap, idle running warm engine, there was almost No air coming from it.
After about 6 months, i decided to check blow-by again (same way off course) The Rio, afther 10000km on the 0w20 is blowing like crazy. the ASX afther 12000KM on the 0w20 even worse then our 320000KM hard life 3.2 diesel pajero. upon removing the filler cap, really high pressure air was escaping from it! oil got every where! The ASX and RIO are driven a lot that's why the already have 10k and 12K on the 0w20.
The picanto only has 2K on the 0w20 and isn't having blow-by yet. although it appears to be more than the factory fill Total 5w40 the dealer put in all three cars when the where delivered.
is the 0w20 destroing the cylinder walls?
Afther 5w40 for 10K all three cars have close to no blow by at all! and 10k later at 0w20 they blow even more than the old perhaps worn 3.2 did pajero.
It really got me worried.
thinking about switching the picanto back to 5w40 asap. and the other's too.
all three cars are driven about the same way. always warmed up carefully, and cruised quite high speed. no wild acceleration's or racing.
What do you guys think of it.
per manual:
ASX: any oil viscosity from 0w20 to 20w50 in my climate is allowed at least api sl or sm. it say's as a side note: 0w20 0w30 5w30 0w40 can only be used if they meet acea a5/b5 or a3/b4. all others api sl minumum.
picanto say's all oil viscosity's 0w20 to 20w50. minimum api sm and or ilsac gf4
Rio same as picanto, but max viscosity 10w40.
I am really puzzled, judging by blow-by these are really are looking like old engine's having 300K.
Diesels don't like thin oil. The reason is twofold: (1) they generate a lot of abrasive soot particulates, and (2) they generate a lot of torque at low RPM, where the viscous reaction force to the torque, applied by the oil, is small due to low RPM. Both (1) and (2) require a thicker oil (film) for more protection against wear and damage.
Kroon claims it's A3/B4 (HTHS viscosity >= 3.5 cP) but would you believe that claim? I haven't seen any other 0W-20 oil with high HTHS viscosity.
In a diesel engine, I would use at least 0W-40, regardless of what the manufacturer recommends. You can also use 10W-40 (about the same thickness), 5W-40 (usually thicker because usually intended for heavy-duty diesels), or 15W-40 (thickest, intended for heavy-duty diesels). Of course, you can also go up to the xW-50 grade, but that would be unnecessarily thick.
My recommendation would be Mobil 1 0W-40.
Good day fellow oil lovers. (long post)
I am a member of the thin oil club, however i always believed sufficient hths was important.
about a year ago my parents bought a new KIA Rio( 1.25 engine, i maintain it) and I bought a KIA Picanto ( 1.0 engine ) and a Mitsubishi ASX ( 1.6 petrol engine). so 3 new 0 km cars.
Always doing my own oil change on all three.
After 10000KM each vehicle, i switched them all over to Kroon oil 0w20 A3/b4 ( Yes I called kroon to confirm A3/b4 and hths )
link to the oil:
http://www.kroon-oil.com/en/products/cat...b-omschrijving/
After the first 10000 Km all three had negligible blow-by. if you took of the oil filler cap, idle running warm engine, there was almost No air coming from it.
After about 6 months, i decided to check blow-by again (same way off course) The Rio, afther 10000km on the 0w20 is blowing like crazy. the ASX afther 12000KM on the 0w20 even worse then our 320000KM hard life 3.2 diesel pajero. upon removing the filler cap, really high pressure air was escaping from it! oil got every where! The ASX and RIO are driven a lot that's why the already have 10k and 12K on the 0w20.
The picanto only has 2K on the 0w20 and isn't having blow-by yet. although it appears to be more than the factory fill Total 5w40 the dealer put in all three cars when the where delivered.
is the 0w20 destroing the cylinder walls?
Afther 5w40 for 10K all three cars have close to no blow by at all! and 10k later at 0w20 they blow even more than the old perhaps worn 3.2 did pajero.
It really got me worried.
thinking about switching the picanto back to 5w40 asap. and the other's too.
all three cars are driven about the same way. always warmed up carefully, and cruised quite high speed. no wild acceleration's or racing.
What do you guys think of it.
per manual:
ASX: any oil viscosity from 0w20 to 20w50 in my climate is allowed at least api sl or sm. it say's as a side note: 0w20 0w30 5w30 0w40 can only be used if they meet acea a5/b5 or a3/b4. all others api sl minumum.
picanto say's all oil viscosity's 0w20 to 20w50. minimum api sm and or ilsac gf4
Rio same as picanto, but max viscosity 10w40.
I am really puzzled, judging by blow-by these are really are looking like old engine's having 300K.
Diesels don't like thin oil. The reason is twofold: (1) they generate a lot of abrasive soot particulates, and (2) they generate a lot of torque at low RPM, where the viscous reaction force to the torque, applied by the oil, is small due to low RPM. Both (1) and (2) require a thicker oil (film) for more protection against wear and damage.
Kroon claims it's A3/B4 (HTHS viscosity >= 3.5 cP) but would you believe that claim? I haven't seen any other 0W-20 oil with high HTHS viscosity.
In a diesel engine, I would use at least 0W-40, regardless of what the manufacturer recommends. You can also use 10W-40 (about the same thickness), 5W-40 (usually thicker because usually intended for heavy-duty diesels), or 15W-40 (thickest, intended for heavy-duty diesels). Of course, you can also go up to the xW-50 grade, but that would be unnecessarily thick.
My recommendation would be Mobil 1 0W-40.
In Europe there are lots of small light duty automotive diesels where a C2 oil is specified. Motul Eco-Clean 0W-30 comes to mind with a HTHSV of 2.89cP and 183 VI.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
In Europe there are lots of small light duty automotive diesels where a C2 oil is specified. Motul Eco-Clean 0W-30 comes to mind with a HTHSV of 2.89cP and 183 VI.
The SAE minimum for xW-30 is 2.9 cP; so, it looks like this oil is slightly off the SAE requirement.
I know, a lot of small diesels recommend lighter oils. Toyota recommends plain 5W-30 (HTHS >= 2.9 cP) for some of its small diesels. But, as I said, I myself wouldn't use lighter than 0W-40 in a small diesel for peace of mind. You don't lose much in fuel economy; the engine will very likely tolerate the higher oil pressure just fine, but you gain a lot of increased margin of protection against wear from soot particulates and low-RPM, high-torque conditions.
In Europe there are lots of small light duty automotive diesels where a C2 oil is specified. Motul Eco-Clean 0W-30 comes to mind with a HTHSV of 2.89cP and 183 VI.
The SAE minimum for xW-30 is 2.9 cP; so, it looks like this oil is slightly off the SAE requirement.
I know, a lot of small diesels recommend lighter oils. Toyota recommends plain 5W-30 (HTHS >= 2.9 cP) for some of its small diesels. But, as I said, I myself wouldn't use lighter than 0W-40 in a small diesel for peace of mind. You don't lose much in fuel economy; the engine will very likely tolerate the higher oil pressure just fine, but you gain a lot of increased margin of protection against wear from soot particulates and low-RPM, high-torque conditions.
Yeah but don't you need a heavier oil to leave a flim on the bearings
Sure. The bearings get alot of reciprocating stress because of the motion of the pistons. I'm just saying if this guy has ring wear, which we can only assume because of the blowby he's talking about, how can one pin that on light oil?
I'd more expect light oil failures to cause bearing damage where there's alot of stress on the oil film. The rings are usually happy on anything. I've never heard of oil thinning eating the rings but the bearings being totally kosher with too thin of oil.
But thats me, Im no expert. I just know most ring damage seems to come from having a badly neglected air filter, which causes abrasive material to get in the combustion chamber.
I'd more expect light oil failures to cause bearing damage where there's alot of stress on the oil film. The rings are usually happy on anything. I've never heard of oil thinning eating the rings but the bearings being totally kosher with too thin of oil.
But thats me, Im no expert. I just know most ring damage seems to come from having a badly neglected air filter, which causes abrasive material to get in the combustion chamber.
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Originally Posted By: Ram01
Yeah but don't you need a heavier oil to leave a flim on the bearings
It's not about "leaving" a thick film. You need to learn the theory of hydrodynamic lubrication, which applies to the bearings and part of the cylinders/rings. The minimum oil-film thickness (MOFT) is a function three parameters: RPM, load, and HTHS viscosity. If there is no load, the journal remains concentric within the bearing, with the oil uniformly surrounding it with the same thickness around the circumference. When there is load applied, the motion becomes eccentric and the oil film will be thinner at some locations and thicker at others. If the load increases too much, eventually MOFT becomes zero and the journal starts contacting the bearing at some locations, and therefore you enter from hydrodynamic-lubrication into the boundary-lubrication (direct-metal-to-metal-contact) regime. What resists this is the oil's HTHS viscosity and RPM. Higher HTHS viscosity will result in a less eccentric motion and it will tolerate higher loads before there is too much eccentricity and metal contacts metal. Likewise, lugging the engine at low RPMs decreases the viscous reaction force and makes the motion more eccentric, increasing the risk of metal-to-metal contact. At the end of the day, viscosity is what protects you against metal-to-metal contact at high load and/or low-RPM conditions in bearings and cylinders.
What happens in a diesel is that they produce high load at low RPM, resulting in more eccentric motion, and they also produce abrasive sooth particles in the oil film, requiring thicker film to protect from both so that there is no metal-to-metal contact and the soot particles are smaller than the oil-film thickness, therefore not able to score the bearings.
Note that part of the lubrication regime for the cylinders and rings is also hydrodynamic and the same basic theory that applies to bearings also applies to the cylinders and rings. Cylinders/rings operate partly in the hydrodynamic regime (same as bearings), partly in the boundary-lubrication regime (same as the valvetrain), and partly in the mixed-lubrication regime (where you make a transition between the hydrodynamic and boundary regimes).
There is a ton of information on this site:
Hydrodynamic journal bearing
Effect of low viscosity oils on engine bearings
And see the two-dozen related links at the bottom on those Web pages, including all kinds of information on oil and lubrication.
Yeah but don't you need a heavier oil to leave a flim on the bearings
It's not about "leaving" a thick film. You need to learn the theory of hydrodynamic lubrication, which applies to the bearings and part of the cylinders/rings. The minimum oil-film thickness (MOFT) is a function three parameters: RPM, load, and HTHS viscosity. If there is no load, the journal remains concentric within the bearing, with the oil uniformly surrounding it with the same thickness around the circumference. When there is load applied, the motion becomes eccentric and the oil film will be thinner at some locations and thicker at others. If the load increases too much, eventually MOFT becomes zero and the journal starts contacting the bearing at some locations, and therefore you enter from hydrodynamic-lubrication into the boundary-lubrication (direct-metal-to-metal-contact) regime. What resists this is the oil's HTHS viscosity and RPM. Higher HTHS viscosity will result in a less eccentric motion and it will tolerate higher loads before there is too much eccentricity and metal contacts metal. Likewise, lugging the engine at low RPMs decreases the viscous reaction force and makes the motion more eccentric, increasing the risk of metal-to-metal contact. At the end of the day, viscosity is what protects you against metal-to-metal contact at high load and/or low-RPM conditions in bearings and cylinders.
What happens in a diesel is that they produce high load at low RPM, resulting in more eccentric motion, and they also produce abrasive sooth particles in the oil film, requiring thicker film to protect from both so that there is no metal-to-metal contact and the soot particles are smaller than the oil-film thickness, therefore not able to score the bearings.
Note that part of the lubrication regime for the cylinders and rings is also hydrodynamic and the same basic theory that applies to bearings also applies to the cylinders and rings. Cylinders/rings operate partly in the hydrodynamic regime (same as bearings), partly in the boundary-lubrication regime (same as the valvetrain), and partly in the mixed-lubrication regime (where you make a transition between the hydrodynamic and boundary regimes).
There is a ton of information on this site:
Hydrodynamic journal bearing
Effect of low viscosity oils on engine bearings
And see the two-dozen related links at the bottom on those Web pages, including all kinds of information on oil and lubrication.
Guy's first off all, thank you for thinking with me!
please remember all 3 cars are petrol.
I checked all the air filters, there all clean and secure.
all three cars have no oil consumption.
The thing that got me worried is that after changing factory fill, having no blow-by at all ,no pulsation, nothing, to 0w20. in 12K km quite a lot blow-by developed. not just a bit of pulsing, you cant leave the oil cap unscrewed, cause it will blow it right off ( both cars same ). Cars are all driven quite normal but also get cruised fairly hard and long at times. about 1x a month each car. usually the are cruised pretty close to top speed. for about an hour. for example the asx reaches 185 km/h i cruise it 170km/h on the cruise control. rio about the same. picanto is cruised WOT cause it will only get to about 160.
So the thing is, first 10k km each car have no blow-by at all. I change to 0w20, and 10K km later they produce quite a lot! since the only thing i changed was the oil. ( duty cyle, fuel all completely the same ) I suspect this is the cause. ijust found out today the dealer delivered the car with 15w40 A3/b4 api sl/cf oil, and use this for servicing as well.
all cars appear to have good oil pressure. at least the oil light doesn't come on even when sitting at the traffic light after high speed cruising. but they have no gauge.
I also have a 1999 Mercedes a160. ran it's whole life on mb229.1 15w40 ( changed every 25000KM ) has 330K km on it and cruised/used like described above, even today. No oil consumption at all. no blow-by at all. nothing.
please remember all 3 cars are petrol.
I checked all the air filters, there all clean and secure.
all three cars have no oil consumption.
The thing that got me worried is that after changing factory fill, having no blow-by at all ,no pulsation, nothing, to 0w20. in 12K km quite a lot blow-by developed. not just a bit of pulsing, you cant leave the oil cap unscrewed, cause it will blow it right off ( both cars same ). Cars are all driven quite normal but also get cruised fairly hard and long at times. about 1x a month each car. usually the are cruised pretty close to top speed. for about an hour. for example the asx reaches 185 km/h i cruise it 170km/h on the cruise control. rio about the same. picanto is cruised WOT cause it will only get to about 160.
So the thing is, first 10k km each car have no blow-by at all. I change to 0w20, and 10K km later they produce quite a lot! since the only thing i changed was the oil. ( duty cyle, fuel all completely the same ) I suspect this is the cause. ijust found out today the dealer delivered the car with 15w40 A3/b4 api sl/cf oil, and use this for servicing as well.
all cars appear to have good oil pressure. at least the oil light doesn't come on even when sitting at the traffic light after high speed cruising. but they have no gauge.
I also have a 1999 Mercedes a160. ran it's whole life on mb229.1 15w40 ( changed every 25000KM ) has 330K km on it and cruised/used like described above, even today. No oil consumption at all. no blow-by at all. nothing.
Quote:
but also get cruised fairly hard and long at times. about 1x a month each car. usually the are cruised pretty close to top speed. for about an hour. for example the asx reaches 185 km/h i cruise it 170km/h on the cruise control. rio about the same. picanto is cruised WOT cause it will only get to about 160.
Going over the border eh?
If you are driving it like this (foot to the floor for an hour) even if its only once a month you need a heavier oil.
It only takes once to blow the engine right?
I would put Mobil 1 New Life 0w40 in all of them and call it a day.
No need to go with 15w40, you really don't need something that heavy if you use synthetics. 15w40 can be a real bugger when its cold, like a boat anchor hanging on the car with an engine this size.
but also get cruised fairly hard and long at times. about 1x a month each car. usually the are cruised pretty close to top speed. for about an hour. for example the asx reaches 185 km/h i cruise it 170km/h on the cruise control. rio about the same. picanto is cruised WOT cause it will only get to about 160.
Going over the border eh?
If you are driving it like this (foot to the floor for an hour) even if its only once a month you need a heavier oil.
It only takes once to blow the engine right?
I would put Mobil 1 New Life 0w40 in all of them and call it a day.
No need to go with 15w40, you really don't need something that heavy if you use synthetics. 15w40 can be a real bugger when its cold, like a boat anchor hanging on the car with an engine this size.
Yes we go over the border quite a lot. I like i doing it a lot. i asked the dealer if I needed a higher oil viscosity for Germany and my driving he said anything in the book will be fine. guess he is wrong
Trav, just out of curiosity, what are most Germans running in their audi bmw mercedes? are they heaving problems running 0w30 or 5w30 in the long run?
Most cars run 5w30, 0w40 and 5w40. 0w30 is also used frequently but i wouldn't say its as popular as the others.
These are not the same oils as in the USA. The 0w30's are heavier and the 5w30's are almost a thin 40w e.g. ESP 5w30.
ESP 5w30 and 0w40 are the most common oils in Mobils line for gasoline engines and 20w is for Hybrids only.
Castrol Edge 10w60 is also popular with big turbo engines.
It sounds like you like to drive foot to the floor for extended times. 20w anything is not your oil.
These are not the same oils as in the USA. The 0w30's are heavier and the 5w30's are almost a thin 40w e.g. ESP 5w30.
ESP 5w30 and 0w40 are the most common oils in Mobils line for gasoline engines and 20w is for Hybrids only.
Castrol Edge 10w60 is also popular with big turbo engines.
It sounds like you like to drive foot to the floor for extended times. 20w anything is not your oil.
salgra,
Thanks for noting that all your cars have gasoline (petrol) engines. I thought it was a diesel engine under question.
I don't know how well you can judge blow-by by running the engine with the oil-filler cap removed. I personally have never tried running the engine without the oil-filler cap. Blow-by gases are handled by the PCV system. It could be that your PCV system sometimes lets the gases accumulate before they are sent to the intake manifold for combustion. You need to consider how the PCV system handles the blow-by gases in your engine. Perhaps if you did your oil-filler-cap-removal experiment in different conditions, you would see much less blow-by gases. I doubt there is something wrong with your engine.
One thing that may be is that when you changed the oil type, the antiwear films on your rings/cylinders got modified. That may sometimes cause temporary problems until new films form, as changing from HDEO to PCMO or from high viscosity to low viscosity can affect your wear films. Wait for a few more thousand kilometers and see if things go back to normal. I wouldn't worry much about it. But then I see that you have already used this oil for 10,000 kilometers; so, this probably doesn't apply to you.
Modern gasoline engines should do OK with any oil from 0W-20 to 20W-50 and with any certification -- SM/SN (gasoline-engine oil), CJ-4/CI-4 (diesel-engine oil), A1/A3/A5, etc. Choosing the right oil is only a matter of providing more long-term protection, not preventing short-term damage. With a brand-new car, you don't see engine damage after only 10,000 kilometers (6,000 miles) regardless of what oil you use, as long as you have oil in the engine. Your engine is not even fully broken-in in 10,000 kilometers.
Chances are that you either don't have a (permanent) problem, or, if you do have a problem, it's not oil-related.
Thanks for noting that all your cars have gasoline (petrol) engines. I thought it was a diesel engine under question.
I don't know how well you can judge blow-by by running the engine with the oil-filler cap removed. I personally have never tried running the engine without the oil-filler cap. Blow-by gases are handled by the PCV system. It could be that your PCV system sometimes lets the gases accumulate before they are sent to the intake manifold for combustion. You need to consider how the PCV system handles the blow-by gases in your engine. Perhaps if you did your oil-filler-cap-removal experiment in different conditions, you would see much less blow-by gases. I doubt there is something wrong with your engine.
One thing that may be is that when you changed the oil type, the antiwear films on your rings/cylinders got modified. That may sometimes cause temporary problems until new films form, as changing from HDEO to PCMO or from high viscosity to low viscosity can affect your wear films. Wait for a few more thousand kilometers and see if things go back to normal. I wouldn't worry much about it. But then I see that you have already used this oil for 10,000 kilometers; so, this probably doesn't apply to you.
Modern gasoline engines should do OK with any oil from 0W-20 to 20W-50 and with any certification -- SM/SN (gasoline-engine oil), CJ-4/CI-4 (diesel-engine oil), A1/A3/A5, etc. Choosing the right oil is only a matter of providing more long-term protection, not preventing short-term damage. With a brand-new car, you don't see engine damage after only 10,000 kilometers (6,000 miles) regardless of what oil you use, as long as you have oil in the engine. Your engine is not even fully broken-in in 10,000 kilometers.
Chances are that you either don't have a (permanent) problem, or, if you do have a problem, it's not oil-related.
Quote:
Modern gasoline engines should do OK with any oil from 0W-20 to 20W-50 and with any certification
Under the operating conditions these engines are running under this is false.
Anything 20w is not recommended in engines running under these conditions.
With modern synthetics 15w40 and 20w50 are for the most part obsolete weights in gasoline engines (granted there maybe some racing apps or older air cooled).
Quote:
One thing that may be is that when you changed the oil type, the antiwear films on your rings/cylinders got modified. That may sometimes cause temporary problems until new films form
That's really stretching it thin.
Modern gasoline engines should do OK with any oil from 0W-20 to 20W-50 and with any certification
Under the operating conditions these engines are running under this is false.
Anything 20w is not recommended in engines running under these conditions.
With modern synthetics 15w40 and 20w50 are for the most part obsolete weights in gasoline engines (granted there maybe some racing apps or older air cooled).
Quote:
One thing that may be is that when you changed the oil type, the antiwear films on your rings/cylinders got modified. That may sometimes cause temporary problems until new films form
That's really stretching it thin.
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